Having people "contribute" to CPL training by flying them?

[Meatservo]

It's like this, see? If you buy a girl dinner and take her to a movie, and she decides she likes you and goes back to your place, fair enough. Now you can go on "face book" and boast about all the pervy things she likes to do. BUT if you pay her to go home with you, well, we know what kind of girl that is, and you probably won't be boasting about it, even if you wound up forking out less than the cost of dinner and a movie. If you buy THAT kind of girl dinner and a movie, why that's just incidental. She's a commercial girl.

[kevenv]

It's like this, see? If you buy a girl dinner and take her to a movie, and she decides she likes you and goes back to your place, fair enough. Now you can go on "face book" and boast about all the pervy things she likes to do. BUT if you pay her to go home with you, well, we know what kind of girl that is, and you probably won't be boasting about it, even if you wound up forking out less than the cost of dinner and a movie. If you buy THAT kind of girl dinner and a movie, why that's just incidental. She's a commercial girl.

[Colonel Sanders]

New topic for the required 80 hrs of CPL
groundschool: learning the difference between
romance and commerce!

[lownslow]

New topic for the required 80 hrs of CPL
groundschool: learning the difference between
romance and commerce!

Now THAT'S where the infamous pilot shortage will begin.

LnS.

[RatherBeFlying]

Well there was the odd flight that a buddy wanted to do: visit Montreal, see Niagara Falls, join his wife who was several hours driving away with relatives... I was open about the costs and being good buddies, they put up their share.

I even got ramped once. I told my buddies I'd catch up to them in the restaurant. Showed the inspector the documents, got told I also needed first aid kit and made generally conscientious noises .

[Sun85]

Well there was the odd flight that a buddy wanted to do: visit Montreal, see Niagara Falls, join his wife who was several hours driving away with relatives... I was open about the costs and being good buddies, they put up their share.

I even got ramped once. I told my buddies I'd catch up to them in the restaurant. Showed the inspector the documents, got told I also needed first aid kit and made generally conscientious noises .

Are you saying that flying buddies where THEY want to go and sharing the cost is ok with TC (as long as you have a first aid kit)?

[cncpc]

Funny you should ask, I was on the opposite end of this convo last month. Here's what I learned:

1. You need to actually own the plane you'd be flying - its illegal to do what you are suggesting in a plane that you don't personally own.

2. The pax have to be incidental to the trip - ie you have to be going on the trip whether or not anyone else is. Make sure you understand this requirement thoroughly. You cannot legally say "I will fly you to CY** for 50/hr", its only legal if your situation is like "I'm going to Oshkosh and have a spare seat if anyone's interested"

3. The pax can only contribute a proportional share of fuel and oil costs. Ie 1 seat out of 4 means 1/4 of the fuel bill.

You really, really don't want to be on the wrong side of the law if there's an incident or accident, so be careful here. You do NOT want to be violated by tc for something like this if you ever plan on flying for a living.

If you don't own the plane, the conversation is already over, and you have indicated that you rent so my guess is that this is a non-starter for you.

Actually, Sulako, that isn't quite correct regarding a rental airplane. Anyone can pay for a rental airplane. It's no different than a rental car. The driver may have to be qualified, but he or she doesn't necessarily have to pay the bill at the end. Any person or group or persons can contract to rent an airplane, and the rental will very likely be provided so long as they have a pilot qualified to fly the airplane.

I used to work in corporate communications for a large forest products company, and they simply arranged for a rental and paid for it, and I picked up the airplane and used it. If I remember, it was Pacific Flying Club. There is also nothing stopping a passenger from paying for the airplane.

I have about 600 hours of flying where I only paid either a quarter or a sixth of the rental cost. Someone else paid the full cost when the bill was made up, and I reimbursed them for my share. On the other hand, I never solicited passengers.

[Sun85]

Cncpc, nowhere in 401.28 would we find any prohibition against soliciting pax.

Folks, the ONLY TC cases I found on the Internet in regards to 401.28 are those where TC thought that people with PPL were running a commercial service. It is beyond belief that TC officials would write 401.28 with the intent of prohibiting people from arranging a shared-cost flight with their pilot buddy. Who is getting hurt here? A commercial pilot missing on a flight by paying customers? But these guys don't want to fly with a commercial pilot - they want to fly with their buddy to where they (pax) want, and share the cost. So what's the problem here? All I want is a reasonable explanation, please

[Beefitarian]

Are you saying that flying buddies where THEY want to go and sharing the cost is ok with TC (as long as you have a first aid kit)?

I think he's telling you that when he was ramp checked they did not inquire as to who was paying for the flight costs or lunch. So he did not tell them.

Many of us have never even seen someone get ramp checked. Never mind actually being checked our selves.

Littering is against the law, yet there's new Tim Horton's cups and wrappers on my lawn every day. I'm pretty sure none of the people dropping them have been fined for it.

It's kind of like selling drugs. Probably only your customers or people you and them tell, will ever know. The problem arises when your customer's brother meets a TC inspector at a party. "Hey you do airplane stuff? Do you know the guy that gives my brother rides for cheap?" TC inspector, "I'm not sure. What's his name?"...

Or another pilot you talked with tries and then gets caught. During the conversation with the inspector they say, "But Sun85 does this all the time. Why are you mad at me?"

In the case of renting why would they care who pays for it? If you were coming in every week with different strangers that paid for every flight they might not even care as long as they are making money. However if Transport ever asked they'd turn you in with the next breath.

[Mr.Blonde]

If you try to find a loop in the CAR to decrease the cost of your CPL maybe you can't afford it ! As per your title, you're in training which means that you shall practice somethings...The only few time I had passenger with me, I considered that as passenger management and I never asked money to my buddies/family and there's nothing like after a flight with a girls and she ask "how much I owe you", you reply "don't worry about that" with a wink...there's a lot of way to save money during CPL !

If you ask the dealer the price of a Ducati Desmosedici RR, you can't afford it !

[DanWEC]

Mr. Blonde- just want to inform you on the age of the (my) original post on this thread. It is from 2009. Somehow got resurrected by a member who was likely searching and had some related questions. Some good info has been since contributed.

Looks like you are just finishing up a CPL yourself and looking for your first job, is this your "Hire me" post from a few months ago with 200 hours?
viewtopic.php?f=92&t=81692

Anyways my friend, I'm happy pounding logging roads on my DR650. Occasionally I get to use the Multistrada from a brand your familiar with... but not often- it's not mine.

Regards,
DC

[Beefitarian]

I think Mr Blonde is suggesting that if I can't afford CPL training, charging my buddies to ride along is not really going to help much.

[Mr.Blonde]

Looks like you are just finishing up a CPL yourself and looking for your first job, is this your "Hire me" post from a few months ago with 200 hours?
viewtopic.php?f=92&t=81692

Anyways my friend, I'm happy pounding logging roads on my DR650. Occasionally I get to use the Multistrada from a brand your familiar with... but not often- it's not mine.

Regards,
DC

It is my post...so what's your point ?

wheter it's 2009 or 2012, it change nothing, It's like people who look to buy a 250 000$ house but they can only afford one at 225 000$!

BTW, The Multistrada is for people confused about their orientation, it's hard to say if it's a touring, a sport-touring,off-road..we don't know...!

[skat0r]

So if someone's family pays for his licence and in exchange gives some few rides, is that illegal??

[Colonel Sanders]

No. If he does charter for hire, that's illegal.

[photofly]

It can get a touch muddy, though. I could give my wife $200 dollars as a gift, and she could coincidentally spend $200 of her own money flying me somewhere. But I can't give her $200 in order to fly me to the same place.

So if someone's family pays for his licence and in exchange gives some few rides, is that illegal??

It's the "in exchange" part that makes it illegal. You can't make the reward a condition of piloting the flight. If you gift a family member their training, and you gift them the cost of some cross-country flying, it's not going to be considered a charter if you ride along.

[cncpc]

Just to reiterate...anyone can pay for a rental airplane. There is no requirement that person be a pilot. There will be a requirement that the pilot be checked out and meet the insurance requirements, but he pilot does not have to be the person who pays the bill.

The people on board the aircraft can that make any arrangement they want to partially reimburse the person who paid the bill. In this situation, no one pays the pilot.

However, there are some obvious restrictions in that approach. A non pilot cannot start a business on this basis, i.e. advertising, but if the genuine purpose is for people to go on a flight, even if that is the purpose of the non pilot renter, then it is legal.

For instance, a company can rent an aircraft for its pilot employee, and he or she can use that aircraft to fly other employees on business. If that is his principle work in the company, then he needs to have a commercial licence. If flying is only incidental to his principal occupation, and he isn't paid additionally for any flying, then he can fly under a private licence. Obviously there are not a lot of companies that would have a private pilot flying them for insurance reasons, but it can happen.

The broad theory behind all of this is that members of the public who pay in some way for air transportation have a greater right to assurance of safety in terms of aircraft airworthiness, pilot qualifications and training, etc. The whole nine yards about why commercial operators have to qualify the way they do. There are some exceptions to allow for private cost sharing. As we see here, the rules are very much open to interpretation.

[Sun85]

Cncpc, sorry, bud, now I am totally confused. Is your interpretation of 401.28(2) that anyone who does not have a pilot license is allowed to rent an airplane and then ask a PPL-holder to fly them in that airplane to where the renter wants? If that so, then how is that in principle different than a non-license holder approaching a PPL-holder and asking that PPL-holder to rent an airplane and fly the non-license holder to where the non-lincense holder wants, then sharing the cost of the rental with the PPL-holder?

Then, what do you mean by "starting a business by advertising?" I cannot think of any business where the cost of a service is shared by the service provider and the service recepient. Quite on the contrary, I see nothing in 401.28 which prevents a PPL-holder from running ads in the national newspapers (if he wants to) stating what his upcoming flight schedule is, and inviting people to join him and share the costs.

And here's another one for everyone to consider. Say, a PPL holder wants to fly from A to B to build hours. He invites a pax to tag along and share the costs, and the pax agrees. So far so good, TC is happy. Then, upon arriving to the aerodrome, it turns out that the weather at B is bad, but the weather at C and D is not so bad. The pilot starts thinking where to fly: C or D. The pax then says: "I'd love to see C, and I don't care about D." The pilot then flies to C with the pax, and back to A. The cost is then shared. Is there a 401.28(2) violation?

With all due respect, folks, do you really think that TC is against the cost of building hours being alleviated by a PPL-holder flying his friends and acquaintances where THEY want? After all, a PPL-holder is absolutely free to do so at his own expense, so the considerations of "safety," of which there (theoretically) would be more of in case of someone with a CPL license, are not applicable here at all. Then what do you think TC is afraid of? That someone will get their CPL while owing a few thousand dollars less to the banks and would get out of the debt a year or two sooner? Again, from the TC cases I've seen on the Internet, 401.28 (2) has been applied where PPL-holders were running what to TC looked like a commercial service. Someone please show me where TC went after a guy who asked someone he knows where they want to fly, took them there, and then shared the costs with them.

[Colonel Sanders]

TC went after some friends of mine re: not having
an OC for a commercial air service. $50,000 fine.

That's probably not very much money to you. Would
you mind writing a cheque for that amount, to cover
their fine?

[Sun85]

TC went after some friends of mine re: not having
an OC for a commercial air service. $50,000 fine.

That's probably not very much money to you. Would
you mind writing a cheque for that amount, to cover
their fine?

Hi, Colonel Sanders: if your post is addressed to me, then of course it is too much money - otherwise I won't be asking my pax to share

Would you kindly elaborate as to what exactly was that fine imposed for?