Northwest A320 overflies destination by 150 miles . . .

[. ._]

They were practicing the approach on Microsoft Flight Simulator and had to do a virtual go around?

[robbreid]

October 26, 2009

************************************************************



NTSB ISSUES UPDATE ON ITS INVESTIGATION OF FLIGHT 188 THAT

OVERFLEW INTENDED MINNEAPOLIS AIRPORT





************************************************************

In its continuing investigation of an Airbus A320 that

overflew the Minneapolis-St Paul International/Wold-

Chamberlain Airport (MSP), the National Transportation

Safety Board has developed the following factual

information: On Wednesday, October 21, 2009, at 5:56 pm

mountain daylight time, an Airbus A320, operating as

Northwest Airlines (NWA) flight 188, became a NORDO (no

radio communications) flight at 37,000 feet. The flight was

operating as a Part 121 flight from San Diego International

Airport, San Diego, California (SAN) to MSP with 144

passengers, 2 pilots and 3 flight attendants.



Both pilots were interviewed separately by NTSB

investigators yesterday in Minnesota. The following is an

overview of the interviews:



* The first officer and the captain were interviewed for

over 5 hours combined.

* The Captain, 53 years old, was hired in 1985. His

total flight time is about 20,000 hours, about 10,000

hours of A-320 time of which about 7,000 was as pilot

in command.

* The First Officer, 54 years old, was hired in 1997.

His total flight time is about 11,000 hours, and has

about 5,000 hours on the A-320.

* Both pilots said they had never had an accident,

incident or violation.

* Neither pilot reported any ongoing medical conditions.

* Both pilots stated that they were not fatigued. They

were both commuters, but they had a 19-hour layover in

San Diego just prior to the incident flight. Both said

they did not fall asleep or doze during the flight.

* Both said there was no heated argument.

* Both stated there was a distraction in the cockpit.

The pilots said there was a concentrated period of

discussion where they did not monitor the airplane or

calls from ATC even though both stated they heard

conversation on the radio. Also, neither pilot noticed

messages that were sent by company dispatchers. They

were discussing the new monthly crew flight scheduling

system that was now in place as a result of the

merger. The discussion began at cruise altitude.

* Both said they lost track of time.

* Each pilot accessed and used his personal laptop

computer while they discussed the airline crew flight

scheduling procedure. The first officer, who was more

familiar with the procedure was providing instruction

to the captain. The use of personal computers on the

flight deck is prohibited by company policy.

* Neither pilot was aware of the airplane's position

until a flight attendant called about 5 minutes before

they were scheduled to land and asked what was their

estimated time of arrival (ETA). The captain said, at

that point, he looked at his primary flight display

for an ETA and realized that they had passed MSP. They

made contact with ATC and were given vectors back to

MSP.

* At cruise altitude - the pilots stated they were using

cockpit speakers to listen to radio communications,

not their headsets.

* When asked by ATC what the problem was, they replied

"just cockpit distraction" and "dealing with company

issues".

* Both pilots said there are no procedures for the

flight attendants to check on the pilots during

flight.



The Safety Board is interviewing the flight attendants and

other company personnel today. Air traffic control

communications have been obtained and are being analyzed.

Preliminary data from the cockpit voice recorder (CVR)

revealed the following:



* The CVR recording was 1/2 hour in length.

* The cockpit area microphone channel was not working

during this recording. However, the crew's headset

microphones recorded their conversations.

* The CVR recording began during final approach, and

continued while the aircraft was at the gate.

* During the hours immediately following the incident

flight, routine aircraft maintenance provided power to

the CVR for a few minutes on several occasions, likely

recording over several minutes of the flight.



The FDR captured the entire flight which contained several

hundred aircraft parameters including the portion of flight

where there was no radio communication from the flight

crew. Investigators are examining the recorded parameters

to see if any information regarding crew activity during the

portion of flight where radio contact was lost can be

obtained.



The Safety Board's investigation continues.

[Rockie]

If they stayed at cruise altitude/speed until just before their ETA they would be about 150 miles past destination, so it sounds entirely plausible. I think cockpit discipline in the United States is going to get a bit of a boost after this incident.

[Hot Fuel]

Brown Bear said

So, what you are saying is, there is nothing wrong with today's regulations regarding duty days, rest periods etc.? And, since guys you fly with "routinely" sleep in the cockpit, that it's alright for all of us to sleep on the job? 'fraid I don't agree....

I thought I was pretty clear, no hidden message in my words.

Clearly, without any evidence, first hand knowledge or facts some of the AvCanada brain trust incorrectly determined the crew was sleeping. Then it was determined that because they were sleeping they must have been sleeping because they were fatigued. Finally if they were fatigued it must have been because of duty limits.

I was merely pointing out that just because one is having a nap in a cockpit it doesn’t automatically mean they were fatigued because of current duty limits.

I find it telling that once the AvCanada determination was made that they were sleeping the AvCanada brotherhood mentality surfaced and quickly the blame was shifted to the FAA and Transport Canada…its wasn’t the crews fault for grossly failing in their duties and responsibilities, it’s the regulators and their rules.

I see this as a misguided effort at supporting an unsupportable position, the crew messed up…plain and simple.

[Brown Bear]

the crew messed up…plain and simple.

We can all certainly agree on that one. Happy everything worked out well. Two seats came open for Airbus drivers, I should think.

Obviously unrelated, but duty times/rest etc. does need to be looked at. You take care. Cheers.

[Rockie]

I see this as a misguided effort at supporting an unsupportable position, the crew messed up…plain and simple.

The crew truly did mess up, but I don't see this as a misguided effort to obsolve them of blame. I see it as never missing an opportunity to shed light on our woefully archaic flight and duty time regulations.

[Brown Bear]

I see this as a misguided effort at supporting an unsupportable position, the crew messed up…plain and simple.

The crew truly did mess up, but I don't see this as a misguided effort to obsolve them of blame. I see it as never missing an opportunity to shed light on our woefully archaic flight and duty time regulations.

I think Hot Fuel's beef was with some who immediately assumed it was a fatigue issue, and pointed fingers at the regulator.......
However, some light certainly needs to be shed on our flight and duty time regs, as you stated.

[CD]

For Immediate Release
October 27, 2009
Contact: Laura Brown (Laura.J.Brown@FAA.gov)
Phone: (202) 267-3883 or (202) 359-3680

FAA Revokes Pilot Licenses

The Federal Aviation Administration has revoked the licenses of two Northwest Airlines pilots who overflew their destination airport on October 21, 2009 while operating Flight 188 from San Diego to Minneapolis.

The pilots were out of contact with air traffic controllers for an extended period of time and told federal investigators that they were distracted by a conversation. Air traffic controllers and airline officials repeatedly tried to reach them through radio and data contact, without success.

The emergency revocations cite violations of a number of Federal Aviation Regulations. Those include failing to comply with air traffic control instructions and clearances and operating carelessly and recklessly.

The revocations are effective immediately. The pilots have 10 days to appeal the emergency revocations to the National Transportation Safety Board.

###

[Hot Fuel]

Brown Bear is correct I was taking issue with those that can’t wait for facts and start creating their own version of events that ultimately blames the regulator.

The Bottom line for me is actually me!

I am responsible for ensuring I am fit for duty and I am responsible for ensuring I get adequate rest prior to reporting for duty. Just me, not the regulator nor anybody else.

That means sometimes I have to go bed instead of doing something that might be more appealing. It also means I might have to say no to my employer when they schedule something that I believe is too tight.

For me it’s all about personnel integrity, I won’t compromise mine because at the end of the day it’s all I really have. The pay cheque or for that matter a job is not worth me compromising my integrity.

Perhaps the last thing to consider is that duty limits should be viewed as guidelines, yes they publish a hard do not exceed number but the rules don’t say “thou shalt operate to the maximum” in fact the rules say you shall report fit for duty.

[station60]

I feel bad for these pilots. These are honest (sort of) hard working pilots; one of them with over 36 years experience... did they fail the system or did the system fail them? What lead up to this? What involvement did the company have in flying two pilots that were obviously fatigued?

These days with SMS I'm surprised they just didn't come clean (assuming they aren't telling the truth) and play the duty-day card... but it's going to be awfully hard for them to dig themselves out of this hole.

Poor guys... that could have been any one of us. I don't know anyone who hasn't fallen asleep in the flight deck from time to time. I call bullshit if you tell me you haven't...

[Brown Bear]

I feel bad for these pilots. These are honest (sort of) hard working pilots; one of them with over 36 years experience... did they fail the system or did the system fail them? What lead up to this? What involvement did the company have in flying two pilots that were obviously fatigued?

These days with SMS I'm surprised they just didn't come clean (assuming they aren't telling the truth) and play the duty-day card... but it's going to be awfully hard for them to dig themselves out of this hole.

Poor guys... that could have been any one of us. I don't know anyone who hasn't fallen asleep in the flight deck from time to time. I call bullshit if you tell me you haven't...

Did you EVEN bother to READ the rest of the thread. They weren't fatigued. They were pissing around with their laptop computers.......while they flew 144+ persons, around. If I were in the back, and my pilots were playing with their laptops, I'd be quite pissed. Now back to the ESL course with you.

[Tim]

Gotta agree with BB. Use of laptops the extent that they had absolutely no idea where they were. 100% loss of SA. No excuse.

[robbreid]

Washington (CNN) -- The Federal Aviation Administration has revoked the licenses of the two Northwest Airlines pilots who overshot a Minnesota airport by 150 miles during a 78-minute period of radio silence last week.

Capt. Timothy B. Cheney, 53, and First Officer Richard I. Cole, 54, were piloting Northwest Flight 188 from San Diego, California, to the Minneapolis-St. Paul airport Wednesday when air traffic controllers lost radio contact with the Airbus A320 over the Denver, Colorado, area.

"The pilots were out of contact with air traffic controllers for an extended period of time and told federal investigators that they were distracted by a conversation," the FAA said.

"Air traffic controllers and airline officials repeatedly tried to reach them through radio and data contact, without success."

Cheney and Cole told investigators they were using personal laptop computers during the flight, in violation of company policy, and lost track of time, the National Transportation Safety Board has said.

The FAA said the revocations cite several violations of regulations, including failure to comply with air traffic control and clearances and operating carelessly and recklessly.

The pilots have 10 days to appeal the revocations, which are effective immediately, to the NTSB, the FAA said.

Flight 188 carried 144 passengers, the two pilots and three flight attendants.

Cheney was hired in 1985 and has more than 20,000 hours of flight time, while Cole was hired in 1997 and has about 11,000 hours of flight time, according to an NTSB report released Monday.

Neither pilot reported having had an accident, incident or violation; neither had any ongoing medical conditions; and neither said he was tired, the report said.

They each had had a 19-hour layover in San Diego; neither said he had slept or argued during the flight, but both said "there was a distraction" in the cockpit, according to the report.

The pilots said there was "a concentrated period of discussion where they did not monitor the airplane or calls" from air traffic control, though both said they heard conversation on the radio, the report said.

Neither pilot said he noticed messages sent by company dispatchers, it added. It said the men were talking about a new monthly crew flight scheduling system put into place in after Northwest's merger with Delta Air Lines.

"Each pilot accessed and used his personal laptop computer while they discussed the airline crew flight scheduling procedure," the report said. "The first officer, who was more familiar with the procedure, was providing instruction to the captain."

Neither pilot said he was aware of where the plane was until a flight attendant called the cockpit about five minutes before the plane was to have landed and asked their estimated time of arrival, the report said.

"The captain said, at that point, he looked at his primary flight display for an ETA and realized that they had passed" the airport, the report said.

After 78 minutes of radio silence, the pilots re-established radio contact with air traffic controllers, according to the report.

After landing at Minneapolis-St. Paul, both voluntarily underwent alcohol breath tests, which proved negative, the report said.

[tesox2]

Its a scarey thought that "our fathers" are acting how they taught us not to.

[Legacy]

I would hate to jump to conclusions on this one but here is what I know:

1) If I had to guestimate, I would say more than 90% of ATC calls are heard and responded to.
2) A chime from the FA's IS loud enough to hear even though you are on your laptop or reading paper, etc
3) The chime from the ACARS IS loud enough to includes number 2 above
4) I am not sure about airbus but anyone that flies them please pipe in. When reaching a TOD or end of route on the FMS a lighting system of some sort will alert you to this (at least the boeing does).
5) If they were BOTH on their laptop what really are the chances that BOTH would miss 1-4 above.
6) Even if they were preoccupied doing something else what are the chances of both of them NEVER taking a quick boo at the ND for a quick glimpse in the course of an hour and a half.

These are just the quick things that popped in my head. There is definitely (well 99.999999999%) something that isn't being told. Personally I don't think there is any way they could be on their laptops and miss the above. Why did it take this long for anyone to say anything. Did they work out some kind of deal with the airline that if they admit they didn't fall asleep they would be paid off or something? Look how negatively the fatigue issue affected the 400Q in buffalo. The public probably thought the comapny pushed their pilots too hard. I don't know but obviously something is not being told here.

[Rockie]

There is no aural warning that the aircraft has passed the TOD, there is only a written message generated by the FMGC. When the aircraft reaches the end of the route it switches from managed navigation to heading (or track if it is selected), but no audio alert is issued in that case either. In order to get either of those messages the crew would have to be looking at the MCDU and FMA.

I don't know about ACARS message alerts as that may be specific to the airline. The cabin call however is a loud, obnoxious noise that cannot be missed even if you are semi-comatose. I believe though that the pilots responded to that and subsequently discovered their error.

[...]

What does the FA call sound like in the 320? Apparently the FA's made numerous attempts to contact the flight deck with no response. Pretty hard to talk over that call chime in the aircraft I fly.

I think the 320 it's a subtle "ping". very soft. In the Boeing as well...however I can't remember IF the cabin handheld unit in the Airbus had an "EMER" button that rings 3 times. However I KNOW the Boeing products had that feature.

I tried to find a soundbite on the net for you. They are all over on the net but you have to download it.

[Pratt]

I would hate to jump to conclusions on this one but here is what I know:

1) If I had to guestimate, I would say more than 90% of ATC calls are heard and responded to.
2) A chime from the FA's IS loud enough to hear even though you are on your laptop or reading paper, etc
3) The chime from the ACARS IS loud enough to includes number 2 above
4) I am not sure about airbus but anyone that flies them please pipe in. When reaching a TOD or end of route on the FMS a lighting system of some sort will alert you to this (at least the boeing does).
5) If they were BOTH on their laptop what really are the chances that BOTH would miss 1-4 above.
6) Even if they were preoccupied doing something else what are the chances of both of them NEVER taking a quick boo at the ND for a quick glimpse in the course of an hour and a half.

These are just the quick things that popped in my head. There is definitely (well 99.999999999%) something that isn't being told. Personally I don't think there is any way they could be on their laptops and miss the above. Why did it take this long for anyone to say anything. Did they work out some kind of deal with the airline that if they admit they didn't fall asleep they would be paid off or something? Look how negatively the fatigue issue affected the 400Q in buffalo. The public probably thought the comapny pushed their pilots too hard. I don't know but obviously something is not being told here.

Unfortunately Legacy you have done just what you said that you would hate to do, you have jumped to conclusions. From your post you haven't flown a 320 so you are just speculating on a number of items you list.

For both of them, if they had admitted that they both fell asleep and tried the fatigue card the consequences might be less than what it appears that they will be facing now, licences pulled and terminated from their jobs.

I seriously doubt that there is any collusion between the Company and the pilots, it would be a crap shoot by the pilots to try to do that and I am pretty sure that the Company would never entertain an idea like that.

As bad as it is for them right now, and I am not trying to defend them here, but it does show abit of integrity on their part by coming out and saying what actually happened rather than trying to concoct a story to try and cover their mistake.

I think they will be hung out to dry, and they have nobody to blame but themselves.

[Rockie]

I think the 320 it's a subtle "ping". very soft.

Tens of thousands of airbus pilots wish it was a nice soft "ping". It's not.

It's a loud obnoxious buzzer designed to give you a headache if you ignore it.

[godsrcrazy]

I would hate to jump to conclusions on this one but here is what I know:

1) If I had to guestimate, I would say more than 90% of ATC calls are heard and responded to.
2) A chime from the FA's IS loud enough to hear even though you are on your laptop or reading paper, etc
3) The chime from the ACARS IS loud enough to includes number 2 above
4) I am not sure about airbus but anyone that flies them please pipe in. When reaching a TOD or end of route on the FMS a lighting system of some sort will alert you to this (at least the boeing does).
5) If they were BOTH on their laptop what really are the chances that BOTH would miss 1-4 above.
6) Even if they were preoccupied doing something else what are the chances of both of them NEVER taking a quick boo at the ND for a quick glimpse in the course of an hour and a half.

These are just the quick things that popped in my head. There is definitely (well 99.999999999%) something that isn't being told. Personally I don't think there is any way they could be on their laptops and miss the above. Why did it take this long for anyone to say anything. Did they work out some kind of deal with the airline that if they admit they didn't fall asleep they would be paid off or something? Look how negatively the fatigue issue affected the 400Q in buffalo. The public probably thought the comapny pushed their pilots too hard. I don't know but obviously something is not being told here.

Unfortunately Legacy you have done just what you said that you would hate to do, you have jumped to conclusions. From your post you haven't flown a 320 so you are just speculating on a number of items you list.

For both of them, if they had admitted that they both fell asleep and tried the fatigue card the consequences might be less than what it appears that they will be facing now, licences pulled and terminated from their jobs.

I seriously doubt that there is any collusion between the Company and the pilots, it would be a crap shoot by the pilots to try to do that and I am pretty sure that the Company would never entertain an idea like that.

As bad as it is for them right now, and I am not trying to defend them here, but it does show abit of integrity on their part by coming out and saying what actually happened rather than trying to concoct a story to try and cover their mistake.

I think they will be hung out to dry, and they have nobody to blame but themselves.

Last i heard they are saying they were on their laptops. I am sorry but i have a hard time believing that they got that distracted by working on laptops that they missed all the radio calls etc. Was it not over 1 hour of no communication with ATC. At 1 point did the news not report the F/A had to call a couple time prior to getting any response from the front. I guess there are only 2 people that know what really happened. My vote is the boy's took a little power nap.