Mr. . has asked when someone is going to point out why a chief pilots association would not work for policing 703 sea plane operations.
First let me begin with saying my comments are in no way meant to slight anybody holding, held or wishing to hold a chief pilots portfolio. I’m of the opinion that most, if not all 703 chief pilots I’ve encountered over the years took on the position with the best of intentions. Yet at the same time more times than not the deciding factor in applying for the position is the perceived career advancement or more directly, a good resume builder and bump in the take home pay.
The requirements to be eligible for the position are frankly too low. In order to satisfy Transport Canada all one needs to do is the following;
1) Meet the flight hour’s standards, a minimum of 500 hours of flight time of which 250 hours were acquired within the preceding three (3) years on the same category of an aircraft operated by the air operator." (This was changed from the standard of at least one (1) year experience within the preceding three (3) years as pilot-in-command of an aircraft operated by the air operator.)
2) The company recommends their choice for the position to their POI who in turn
verifies the applicant’s qualifications listed above.
3) The POI issues the applicant a letter of recommendation to attempt the written examination.
4) Completion of a 50 question multiple choice exam.
5) An interview with the POI specific to the company operations.
The exams are a walk in the park; the study guide is a published document that identifies every area that you are going to be tested on, a couple days of study at best to be prepared to achieve the 80% passing grade. Today’s up and comers have or are taught the study techniques to get it right on the first or second attempt.
It’s not unlike the instructor debate; the least experienced teaching those with no experience.
The transition from “pilot” to “management pilot” can be a difficult one. Generally speaking the 703 sector is a small operation with a couple or three aircraft. One goes from being your buddy to being the boss virtually overnight. Somebody said in another thread that just because you are pilot it doesn’t necessarily make you a good manager. I think that plays a role.
A situation is created that often puts a person with minimal experience in life, flying and people management under the gun. Like I said earlier the intention to perform well in the position is there however the tool box might not be all that it needs to be.
When push comes to shove the new appointee gets lost in who he is really supposed to be working for, the pilot group and arguably Transport Canada. Its not easy to stand-up and potentially face-off against the very people that sign your cheque or to some degree hold the key to your career progression.
Experience is the key, both in matters of aviation, safety and the ability to manage people at all levels. I think that experience level for the most part isn't there because nobody races for the bottom of the pile, lets face it the vast majority want the big tin and 703 flying is viewed as entry level by almost everybody.
With respect to forming an association, bottomline...a room full of inexperience is simply that, intentions will only take you so far.
Can we improve safety on the west coast in sea planes?
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Re: Can we improve safety on the west coast in sea planes?
You made valid points Hot Fuel and have pointed out how the system works in far to many companies.
However if we examine the power a chief pilot holds under legislation we will find that the chief pilot is responsible for the safety of all flying performed by the company he/she has been approved as chief pilot for.
I have a very extensive background in the duties of a chief pilot in 703/704 and 705 companies and have proven that if the chief pilot identifies a problem with non compliance to the rules and can not get support and back up from TCCA said chief pilot can use the courts to force TC to take action in support of the chief pilot.
I was expecting someone to point out how ineffective most chief pilots are in the 703/704 sector of aviation because generally speaking it is nothing short of a charade played between the companies and TCCA using inexperienced young people as scape goats on paper as smoke screens to blur what really goes on in the day to day operations of a lot of companies.
It can be changed by changing the mind set of chief pilots and once that is accomplished the legislation is already in place to change how companies operate.
What say thee to that Hot Fuel?
I would like to think that part of the reason my career was so successful is because I think and act in a positive mindset and do not meekly shrug my shoulders and say it can't be done because everyone else does not bother to do it right.
However if we examine the power a chief pilot holds under legislation we will find that the chief pilot is responsible for the safety of all flying performed by the company he/she has been approved as chief pilot for.
I have a very extensive background in the duties of a chief pilot in 703/704 and 705 companies and have proven that if the chief pilot identifies a problem with non compliance to the rules and can not get support and back up from TCCA said chief pilot can use the courts to force TC to take action in support of the chief pilot.
I was expecting someone to point out how ineffective most chief pilots are in the 703/704 sector of aviation because generally speaking it is nothing short of a charade played between the companies and TCCA using inexperienced young people as scape goats on paper as smoke screens to blur what really goes on in the day to day operations of a lot of companies.
It can be changed by changing the mind set of chief pilots and once that is accomplished the legislation is already in place to change how companies operate.
What say thee to that Hot Fuel?
I would like to think that part of the reason my career was so successful is because I think and act in a positive mindset and do not meekly shrug my shoulders and say it can't be done because everyone else does not bother to do it right.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: Can we improve safety on the west coast in sea planes?
I think were on the same page, I don’t view the chief pilot position as a resume or time builder position. Yes men need not apply as they do nothing for the industry as a whole.
The bigger question is what steps need to be taken to change that?
Correct me if I’m wrong but utilizing the courts to force change takes more balls than simply standing up to the issue that brought you to the courts to begin with. Let me pull a number out of my ass and say that if only 1 in 10 new appointees have the intestinal fortitude to take a stand on an issue with their ownership or boss because of fearing for their job, what do you think the odds would be to find one willing to really go the distance?
You might be living proof of the ruin to follow when one chooses that route.
Personal integrity is a dying trait, and frankly should be a requirement for the job.
Heres a crazy thought, perhaps the chief pilot should fall under Transport Canada’s payroll and that a formula devised that would see all carriers funnel funds into the Transport kitty? The company is free to hire whomever they want for the position but once the nomination and acceptance process is complete the chief pilot falls under Transports payroll and the appointee answers to Transport not the carrier.
The bigger question is what steps need to be taken to change that?
Correct me if I’m wrong but utilizing the courts to force change takes more balls than simply standing up to the issue that brought you to the courts to begin with. Let me pull a number out of my ass and say that if only 1 in 10 new appointees have the intestinal fortitude to take a stand on an issue with their ownership or boss because of fearing for their job, what do you think the odds would be to find one willing to really go the distance?
You might be living proof of the ruin to follow when one chooses that route.
Personal integrity is a dying trait, and frankly should be a requirement for the job.
Heres a crazy thought, perhaps the chief pilot should fall under Transport Canada’s payroll and that a formula devised that would see all carriers funnel funds into the Transport kitty? The company is free to hire whomever they want for the position but once the nomination and acceptance process is complete the chief pilot falls under Transports payroll and the appointee answers to Transport not the carrier.
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Re: Can we improve safety on the west coast in sea planes?
Quote:
" You might be living proof of the ruin to follow when one chooses that route. "
I have to get a new computer or get this one declusterfu.ked because it the right click copy and paste will not work.
Hot fuel we have a lot of people reading this and if I am going to try and better aviation we need to examine comments such as that one, would you be kind enough to explain what you mean?
Then I shall relate what happened to my career when I went to the courts for a decision as to the power of a chief pilot to uphold the law.
There is no need to have a chief pilot under TC's payroll because the legislation is already in place that allows the chief pilot to enforce the law.
" You might be living proof of the ruin to follow when one chooses that route. "
I have to get a new computer or get this one declusterfu.ked because it the right click copy and paste will not work.
Hot fuel we have a lot of people reading this and if I am going to try and better aviation we need to examine comments such as that one, would you be kind enough to explain what you mean?
Then I shall relate what happened to my career when I went to the courts for a decision as to the power of a chief pilot to uphold the law.
There is no need to have a chief pilot under TC's payroll because the legislation is already in place that allows the chief pilot to enforce the law.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: Can we improve safety on the west coast in sea planes?
In the spirit of the new direction this forum is trying to take I’m trying to keep the discussion positive as are you.
My recollection of your previous posts on pushing TC to support your efforts relating to a chief pilots position was that you achieved the desired effect of your challenge, I don’t recall the issue.
That said one has to realise that when one publicly challenges authority, any authority, to achieve a goal, win or lose inevitably “authority” will hold a grudge. I don’t think it’s too far of a stretch to connect the dots and consider the notion those previous efforts to make TC do something they didn’t initially want to remained in somebody’s memory and they exercised their authority or influence to cause you grief much later in life. Your TC troubles are well documented on this site and I’m suggesting choices earlier in your career may have influenced actions taken against you later in life.
Back to my first comments…not a positive picture but it is a reality of human emotion.
I agree completely that the regulations clearly give the power to the chief pilot; however it comes back to the experience level of the person in the seat and his position on life’s ladder. More times than not when he or she is faced with a `me or them` decision and in the early stages of ones career regrettably it will be `them` and he or she’s integrity that will be sacrificed to ensure ones livelihood and progression.
Which is why I suggest that once in the position they answer to the people that make the regulations and not the profit? Yeah I know...adding sharks to the kettle of fish but at least the sharks don't have accountants asking questions.
My recollection of your previous posts on pushing TC to support your efforts relating to a chief pilots position was that you achieved the desired effect of your challenge, I don’t recall the issue.
That said one has to realise that when one publicly challenges authority, any authority, to achieve a goal, win or lose inevitably “authority” will hold a grudge. I don’t think it’s too far of a stretch to connect the dots and consider the notion those previous efforts to make TC do something they didn’t initially want to remained in somebody’s memory and they exercised their authority or influence to cause you grief much later in life. Your TC troubles are well documented on this site and I’m suggesting choices earlier in your career may have influenced actions taken against you later in life.
Back to my first comments…not a positive picture but it is a reality of human emotion.
I agree completely that the regulations clearly give the power to the chief pilot; however it comes back to the experience level of the person in the seat and his position on life’s ladder. More times than not when he or she is faced with a `me or them` decision and in the early stages of ones career regrettably it will be `them` and he or she’s integrity that will be sacrificed to ensure ones livelihood and progression.
Which is why I suggest that once in the position they answer to the people that make the regulations and not the profit? Yeah I know...adding sharks to the kettle of fish but at least the sharks don't have accountants asking questions.
Last edited by Hot Fuel on Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
-
pilotidentity
- Rank 3
- Posts: 163
- Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 12:00 am
Re: Can we improve safety on the west coast in sea planes?
I'd agree that one of the best contributions to safety is a pilot group that frowns upon risky behavior and uses all psychological methods as a group to get that message across to the offending pilot - basically making a risk taker feel that to become or remain part of the group he has to conform to safety.
-
pilotidentity
- Rank 3
- Posts: 163
- Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 12:00 am
Re: Can we improve safety on the west coast in sea planes?
And I should add to my above post that when you find yourself in the opposite position, the position of being the only person that has a safety mind set in a group of risk takers, then you will most likely have to find a new job.
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Re: Can we improve safety on the west coast in sea planes?
Hot Fuel my decision to use the court route to achieve the results that the law required was when I was chief pilot for Air West Airlines and it took place in the spring of 1975.
For sure there were TC employees in the management level who were very angry with me and what I did, however the law ruled and they lost.
I went from there to chief pilot for a 705 operation and on down the years TC here on the west coast put me in a couple of companies that badly needed cleaning up regulation wise.
The problem I had with Nowzek in 2001 had no connection to what transpired in 1975 as I very much doubt that Nowzek would have any real connection with that era.
However you are basically 100% correct that when one decides to buck the system even when you are on the correct side of the law you will be open to revenge somewhere down the line when they get the opportunity to try and teach you a lesson for having had the temerity to force them to comply with the law.
Was I wise to have done what I did?
I think I was because in the final analysis I did what the position required me to do which was to ensure safety in flight operations.
Am I better off or worse off for having gone against some of their management?
I think so because regardless of what Nowzek and his bosses did to me my career only went upward even though it was not in Canada.
Would I advise others to do the same?
It all depends on how each individual preceives right and wrong and what sacrifices they are willing to accept to do what they think is the right thing.
The only other option is be a " team player " and go with the flow hoping that nothing serious happens during the time you are responsible for oversight of flight operations.....team players usually get the bat up the whazoo when the umpires decide they want to show you who runs the game.
This conversation is arguably about one of the most serious issues that any member of the aviation team can have because it forces us to look inside our true character.
For sure there were TC employees in the management level who were very angry with me and what I did, however the law ruled and they lost.
I went from there to chief pilot for a 705 operation and on down the years TC here on the west coast put me in a couple of companies that badly needed cleaning up regulation wise.
The problem I had with Nowzek in 2001 had no connection to what transpired in 1975 as I very much doubt that Nowzek would have any real connection with that era.
However you are basically 100% correct that when one decides to buck the system even when you are on the correct side of the law you will be open to revenge somewhere down the line when they get the opportunity to try and teach you a lesson for having had the temerity to force them to comply with the law.
Was I wise to have done what I did?
I think I was because in the final analysis I did what the position required me to do which was to ensure safety in flight operations.
Am I better off or worse off for having gone against some of their management?
I think so because regardless of what Nowzek and his bosses did to me my career only went upward even though it was not in Canada.
Would I advise others to do the same?
It all depends on how each individual preceives right and wrong and what sacrifices they are willing to accept to do what they think is the right thing.
The only other option is be a " team player " and go with the flow hoping that nothing serious happens during the time you are responsible for oversight of flight operations.....team players usually get the bat up the whazoo when the umpires decide they want to show you who runs the game.
This conversation is arguably about one of the most serious issues that any member of the aviation team can have because it forces us to look inside our true character.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: Can we improve safety on the west coast in sea planes?
Absolutely…a healthy `company culture` that promotes safety, adhering to regulations, policies and procedures is the nirvana. I’ve said it before I’ll say it again.
Company culture only works from the bottom up; it absolutely needs the support of the management at the highest levels. However, the person at the top can talk a good game and be as supportive as possible but in the end it’s the people on the working end of shovel that get the job done.
An unhealthy company culture gets changed by a management that has the desire and will to see it change; they have to publicly support the culture. But it’s the grass root effort from `the little people`` that actually make the changes by not accepting and offering solutions to actions that are determined to be unacceptable risk.
A healthy company culture is one that collectively offers solutions to potential problems in an effort to achieve acceptable levels of risk for all parties. The ranks have to be involved, if you leave it up to somebody else to decide odds are you won’t be very happy.
Company culture only works from the bottom up; it absolutely needs the support of the management at the highest levels. However, the person at the top can talk a good game and be as supportive as possible but in the end it’s the people on the working end of shovel that get the job done.
An unhealthy company culture gets changed by a management that has the desire and will to see it change; they have to publicly support the culture. But it’s the grass root effort from `the little people`` that actually make the changes by not accepting and offering solutions to actions that are determined to be unacceptable risk.
A healthy company culture is one that collectively offers solutions to potential problems in an effort to achieve acceptable levels of risk for all parties. The ranks have to be involved, if you leave it up to somebody else to decide odds are you won’t be very happy.
Re: Can we improve safety on the west coast in sea planes?
Mr . I think we are still on the same page, integrity and a desire to maintain your sense of personal pride or dignity is at the end of the day the only thing we truly have control over.
In my books nothing worse than going home knowing that I caved or compromised my sense of right and wrong. In the process, potentially damaging my credibility with a host of people that were watching and waiting for me to stand up for them too.
I can’t say I’ve come to this position overnight, I’m nearing retirement and it took years to find my backbone or perhaps my limits, today I’ll walk out the door and never look back if I’m put in a situation that is forcing me to compromise my personal integrity.
Are you better off standing up for doing the right thing? Well it’s certainly easier to look at yourself in the mirror, the loans officer not so much. Would I recommend for everybody? In a perfect world, yes. Sadly this world is far from perfect.
Under our current system it seems it’s a risk vs reward scenario and thus become personal choices these individuals are inevitably going to have to make when the rubber hits the road.
Out of curiosity, who picked up the costs of the legal fight with transport back in 1975?
Do you think anybody else has any ideas or is it just me and you left to sort out the mess?
In my books nothing worse than going home knowing that I caved or compromised my sense of right and wrong. In the process, potentially damaging my credibility with a host of people that were watching and waiting for me to stand up for them too.
I can’t say I’ve come to this position overnight, I’m nearing retirement and it took years to find my backbone or perhaps my limits, today I’ll walk out the door and never look back if I’m put in a situation that is forcing me to compromise my personal integrity.
Are you better off standing up for doing the right thing? Well it’s certainly easier to look at yourself in the mirror, the loans officer not so much. Would I recommend for everybody? In a perfect world, yes. Sadly this world is far from perfect.
Under our current system it seems it’s a risk vs reward scenario and thus become personal choices these individuals are inevitably going to have to make when the rubber hits the road.
Out of curiosity, who picked up the costs of the legal fight with transport back in 1975?
Do you think anybody else has any ideas or is it just me and you left to sort out the mess?
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Re: Can we improve safety on the west coast in sea planes?
My legal fees were picked up by one of the biggest law firms in Vancouver for the grand sum out of my pocket of one dollar.
I received a phone call from the president of a large airline who was watching my struggle with TCCA trying to get Air West Airlines to at least try and abide by the rules and he sent me to that law firm.
I never did find out who benefited by the decision the court reached and no one ever told me.
Yes it seems as you and I are the only ones discussing this in this context at the moment but you can bet it is giving a lot of people something to think about.
I received a phone call from the president of a large airline who was watching my struggle with TCCA trying to get Air West Airlines to at least try and abide by the rules and he sent me to that law firm.
I never did find out who benefited by the decision the court reached and no one ever told me.
Yes it seems as you and I are the only ones discussing this in this context at the moment but you can bet it is giving a lot of people something to think about.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: Can we improve safety on the west coast in sea planes?
Not to forget that the people who face the front line risk are the least experienced. They're the ones creeping up misty valleys hoping to get there while recalling the exploits of people who went before and trying to please a boss in some office somewhere. He might spill his coffee while the pilot might spill some blood.
Pilots read the exploits of many, even on this forum, they are influenced by their peers (even over beers!).
But the reality behind the actions of others can never be truly passed on.
The guy who beat the weather, got in, he was lucky, very lucky, but get into his head and know the fear, that we cannot do.
Later in the bar he'll relate his heroic flight and leave out the fear he felt and how only through luck did he survive.
We grow up knowing that we will never be as good as our fathers, but then we mature to know they were not that good after all, and that is experience.
An association of experienced chief pilots?
That would be a dream.
Probably the best thing would be to legislate more responsibility on the owners/bosses of flying companies, increase their risk, make them know that they too would lose something in an accident.
People in positions of authority may not be able to be there when an accident can be prevented, but they certainly can be persuaded to ensure that the training, equipment, and weather limitations mitigate the risk.
But being in a position of authority requires a decent income regardless of whether it's an owner operator or a big company.
It's a hugely responsible position that takes a professional mature mind.
Passion for flying and an acceptance of low relative income is not enough for a human being to competently operate. There's always a financial and social stress that underlies under pay and this detracts from performance.
Pilots read the exploits of many, even on this forum, they are influenced by their peers (even over beers!).
But the reality behind the actions of others can never be truly passed on.
The guy who beat the weather, got in, he was lucky, very lucky, but get into his head and know the fear, that we cannot do.
Later in the bar he'll relate his heroic flight and leave out the fear he felt and how only through luck did he survive.
We grow up knowing that we will never be as good as our fathers, but then we mature to know they were not that good after all, and that is experience.
An association of experienced chief pilots?
That would be a dream.
Probably the best thing would be to legislate more responsibility on the owners/bosses of flying companies, increase their risk, make them know that they too would lose something in an accident.
People in positions of authority may not be able to be there when an accident can be prevented, but they certainly can be persuaded to ensure that the training, equipment, and weather limitations mitigate the risk.
But being in a position of authority requires a decent income regardless of whether it's an owner operator or a big company.
It's a hugely responsible position that takes a professional mature mind.
Passion for flying and an acceptance of low relative income is not enough for a human being to competently operate. There's always a financial and social stress that underlies under pay and this detracts from performance.
Re: Can we improve safety on the west coast in sea planes?
could it be this simple?
- Refuse to operate unless:
- you have an accurate weight for the passengers and cargo.
- you have enough fuel for a reasonable alternate.
- MELs are not ignored.
- Deicing is always carried out.
In other words, refuse to operate the flight unless all safety criteria are met.
Too simplistic, ......................perhaps...................
- Refuse to operate unless:
- you have an accurate weight for the passengers and cargo.
- you have enough fuel for a reasonable alternate.
- MELs are not ignored.
- Deicing is always carried out.
In other words, refuse to operate the flight unless all safety criteria are met.
Too simplistic, ......................perhaps...................
Re: Can we improve safety on the west coast in sea planes?
I know that flying seaplanes is probably (at times) a much more dynamic environment than flying airliners...
That being said - we've got runway analysis charts that give us some pretty valuable information if we are considering departing with a tailwind on all runways that we encounter in our system. Maybe a potential solution is to try to apply some of these principles (basing performance on hard data rather than word of mouth and trial and error) and applying them, if possible, to the seaplane world?
-I must add I don't know sh@t from sh#inola when it comes to flying floats professionally...
That being said - we've got runway analysis charts that give us some pretty valuable information if we are considering departing with a tailwind on all runways that we encounter in our system. Maybe a potential solution is to try to apply some of these principles (basing performance on hard data rather than word of mouth and trial and error) and applying them, if possible, to the seaplane world?
-I must add I don't know sh@t from sh#inola when it comes to flying floats professionally...
Last edited by Pugster on Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Re: Can we improve safety on the west coast in sea planes?
Thanks for your comments Michael because you are in a position that is extremely important in aviation as a chief flying instructor.
What I am trying to do is get the really young ones who are just starting on the road of aviation to really weigh the pros and cons of how they approach each and every aspect of flying for a living.
I have lost track of all the pilots who went beyond their ability to get out of trouble because they pushed the edge once to often. We should always leave some extra margin for error because for sure the time will come when it will mean living or dying.
Remember you learn from others mistakes and I have made almost every mistake a pilot can make but somehow never wrecked an aircraft, so if I can somehow help shape your thought process and keep you alive my final task in aviation will be a success.
What I am trying to do is get the really young ones who are just starting on the road of aviation to really weigh the pros and cons of how they approach each and every aspect of flying for a living.
I have lost track of all the pilots who went beyond their ability to get out of trouble because they pushed the edge once to often. We should always leave some extra margin for error because for sure the time will come when it will mean living or dying.
Remember you learn from others mistakes and I have made almost every mistake a pilot can make but somehow never wrecked an aircraft, so if I can somehow help shape your thought process and keep you alive my final task in aviation will be a success.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: Can we improve safety on the west coast in sea planes?
If you are operating 704/705 you should ask your chief pilot why you only have some of the performance charts for some of the runways that you encounter.
Re: Can we improve safety on the west coast in sea planes?
The trouble with Chief Pilot's is, that even though some may have the best of intentions, they have very little real authority under the law and rarely receive the support they need from other management and owners to do a proper job. The position is no longer about wisdom, leadership, guidance and mentoring from an experienced pilot - those days are long gone.
Too often the Chief Pilot position is viewed as a necessary evil by operators, and as was pointed out earlier, Transport Canada doesn't set the bar very high for one to qualify. And the exam may be easy, however many have failed it and still attained the position - I know of one who failed it three times and was still accepted.
The real power is in the position of Operations Manager, and particularly with 703, the position is often held by someone in a position of financial control in the company ie the owner, or spouse of the owner, and who may or may not have much in the way of real aviation experience. Yet this person is the one who holds all the cards where enforcement or disregard of safety decisions is concerned.
Yet another flaw in our system that enables poor operators to continue operating poorly.
Kirsten B.
Too often the Chief Pilot position is viewed as a necessary evil by operators, and as was pointed out earlier, Transport Canada doesn't set the bar very high for one to qualify. And the exam may be easy, however many have failed it and still attained the position - I know of one who failed it three times and was still accepted.
The real power is in the position of Operations Manager, and particularly with 703, the position is often held by someone in a position of financial control in the company ie the owner, or spouse of the owner, and who may or may not have much in the way of real aviation experience. Yet this person is the one who holds all the cards where enforcement or disregard of safety decisions is concerned.
Yet another flaw in our system that enables poor operators to continue operating poorly.
Kirsten B.
“Never interrupt someone doing something you said couldn’t be done.” Amelia Earhart
Re: Can we improve safety on the west coast in sea planes?
Snoopy, I agree that the Operations Manager position is the power position within an air service/airline, on paper the position holds the legal responsibility for ensuring the airline and its practices are operating within or above the standards.
In reality the Operations Manager that is not the owner becomes for all intents and purposes the fall guy when and if it hits the fan. Perhaps the shift to the accountable executive thinking will end that but historically its been the Operation Manager standing in front of the inquiry or tribunal, the CEO’s and ownership have traditionally stood in the wings shrugging shoulders and making comments like “no comment” or “we had no knowledge of those events”. Look at the Dryden enquiry, it was Jim that took the brunt, it never went higher than the operations manager.
I have always viewed it is a conflict of interest to be both owner and operations manager, there should be separation between financial concerns and operational concerns. I think I’ve actually read that is what is supposed to happen.
In reality the Operations Manager that is not the owner becomes for all intents and purposes the fall guy when and if it hits the fan. Perhaps the shift to the accountable executive thinking will end that but historically its been the Operation Manager standing in front of the inquiry or tribunal, the CEO’s and ownership have traditionally stood in the wings shrugging shoulders and making comments like “no comment” or “we had no knowledge of those events”. Look at the Dryden enquiry, it was Jim that took the brunt, it never went higher than the operations manager.
I have always viewed it is a conflict of interest to be both owner and operations manager, there should be separation between financial concerns and operational concerns. I think I’ve actually read that is what is supposed to happen.
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Re: Can we improve safety on the west coast in sea planes?
True the Operations manager is a higher position in the tree within the company structure.
However the operations manager can hold the position and not have ever been a line pilot. ( Unless the rules have changed since CAR's were put in place. )
The reason I chose the chief pilot as the best person to oversee flight operations is because that person interacts directly with the crews as a flying member of the company.
If a group of chief pilots were to support each other in ensuring regulatory compliance within their companies they as a cohesive group would have all the power needed to ensure rogue companies are forced to be in compliance with the rules......even though it would appear they have no real power try operating a company without one.
For sure the industry is full of toothless tigers the way it is now operating regardless of which tiger you pick in a company.
Then again maybe I am a dreamer who is to idealistic and my expectations are unrealistic.
Somewhere I got lost and am unable to understand how the industry has progressed to this point where there seems to be no answers to fix an industry that has evolved to this state.
However the operations manager can hold the position and not have ever been a line pilot. ( Unless the rules have changed since CAR's were put in place. )
The reason I chose the chief pilot as the best person to oversee flight operations is because that person interacts directly with the crews as a flying member of the company.
If a group of chief pilots were to support each other in ensuring regulatory compliance within their companies they as a cohesive group would have all the power needed to ensure rogue companies are forced to be in compliance with the rules......even though it would appear they have no real power try operating a company without one.
For sure the industry is full of toothless tigers the way it is now operating regardless of which tiger you pick in a company.
Then again maybe I am a dreamer who is to idealistic and my expectations are unrealistic.
Somewhere I got lost and am unable to understand how the industry has progressed to this point where there seems to be no answers to fix an industry that has evolved to this state.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: Can we improve safety on the west coast in sea planes?
Hot Fuel,
You have some valid points, yet I can't help thinking that nothing was ever gained by operating to extremes or applying a shotgun approach to a situation. With proper oversight, responsible ownership and general checks and balances in place, I see no harm in a one aircraft operator, or even a couple-aircraft operator, assuming one or more CARS roles. However, at some point in size/scope, this may no longer be practical. Certainly, if it is allowed that an owner or other financially responsible person holds a CARS title, perhaps there should be stricter oversight and quality assurance assessment of that operator, or perhaps just more justification required for the approval.
It is all the previously mentioned problems of the existing system that make it possible for the poor operators to take advantage of the CARS positions. Elimination of some or all of those problems would make this less of a danger as higher standards would be supported.
Kirsten B.
You have some valid points, yet I can't help thinking that nothing was ever gained by operating to extremes or applying a shotgun approach to a situation. With proper oversight, responsible ownership and general checks and balances in place, I see no harm in a one aircraft operator, or even a couple-aircraft operator, assuming one or more CARS roles. However, at some point in size/scope, this may no longer be practical. Certainly, if it is allowed that an owner or other financially responsible person holds a CARS title, perhaps there should be stricter oversight and quality assurance assessment of that operator, or perhaps just more justification required for the approval.
It is all the previously mentioned problems of the existing system that make it possible for the poor operators to take advantage of the CARS positions. Elimination of some or all of those problems would make this less of a danger as higher standards would be supported.
Kirsten B.
“Never interrupt someone doing something you said couldn’t be done.” Amelia Earhart
