Can we improve safety on the west coast in sea planes?

[Cat Driver]

Looks like I just can not remain silent here on Avcanada, so I am going to share some thoughts I have on sea plane operations here on the west coast.

First off the west coast has issues that are unique to this area such as unpredictable winds and very fast changing visibilities and ceilings.

So first lets look at the down wind take off scenario and compare the decision making processes between sea plane pilots and land plane pilots.

Generally one will find that sea plane pilots will conduct far more down wind take offs than land plane pilots will and some pilots will accept higher and higher tail winds on take off as they gain experience until they become programmed to think that down wind take offs are normal because they operate in areas where they either have to take off down wind or cancel the trip.

It would be interesting to see how each kind of pilot looks at down wind take offs and examine their decision making process on where they draw the line and why.

Anyone want to share their thoughts?

Of course before I would expect others to share their opinions on this I must first share mine.

I treat a down wind take off in a sea plane as a risk that I try and avoid as often as possible and will only perform one if there is no other way to depart....and I leave myself a safety factor that does not put me in a high risk situation or I will just cancel the idea and wait for better conditions.

Also I feel that a down wind take off in a sea plane is a higher risk than a land plane down wind take off in many cases due to terrain.

[beechnut]

. and all After 30 years on floats mostly on the coast I have always considered the down wind takeoff probably the the safest way to get out of the water . It has been my preferred departure as I do not like to climb out over land until I have a reasonable amount of altitude under me. I think that a pilots experience level has a great deal to do with the decision .We have had some terrible accidents as a result of into the wind departures in some of the tougher spots that we operate out of. Shoal Harbour on Gilford Island comes to mind as well as the one near Bella Coola. Just remember that a Beaver with its flaps hanging out and heavy as well as slow in a steep turn is probably the most dangerous tool that we have to work with. I am not saying that the G-21 ,DHC-3, DHC-6 or the Cessnas are any safer all I am trying to get across is that the down wind departure is not all that bad. Please Fly safe Beechnut

[sky's the limit]

Flying on the coast in most anything but float planes, I look at the downwind departure as a question to be answered.

If departing downwind will help to avoid terrain, or an early cross-wind/down-wind turn to void terrain, then it may well be advisable. Operating out of short one way bush strips or working off-strip, the downwind departure is often one's only choice, that said, I've waited many hours over the years to have favourable wind conditions in terms of speed in order to do them safely. Patience is always a virtue.

Knowing one's aircraft is particularly important, but as someone mentioned on another thread, the winter months here on the Coast often leave pilots of all types fighting the clock and daylight with rapidly changing conditions - always a difficult place to find oneself in.

stl

[Cat Driver]

Beechnut I am not saying that a down wind take off is not safe if the wind is within a safe margin for the airplane being flown and of course there are many areas where one accepts down wind take offs due to terrain concerns.

Some airplanes are more difficult to operate down wind than others and some require ground speeds that are high enough to really pound the crap out of the airplane if the waves are high enough.

Flying boats can be down right frightening if you start to porpoise with a tail wind and can get totally out of control very quickly with a tail wind.

Anyhow thanks for getting involved here as we need as much in put as possible to examine this kind of flying and the inherent dangers that sometimes get beyond a pilots ability to deal with.

[xsbank]

The down-wind take-off is, in my mind, the most dangerous procedure on floats. Many times it is a necessary evil and without having it in your toolbox, many times you cannot operate at all. The problem is, there is no hard and fast rule for the pilot to use, when is the wind too strong, gusts, where do the swells start, are there boats operating nearby? Floating hazards? Logs? Many of these exist in all takeoffs but are magnified when going down wind due to the much longer time on the water and the longer exposure. Many parameters and all must be judged "by the seat of your pants." Shoal Bay is a good example, on crew day land into the bay into wind and then take a load of loggers out, with all their gear, in a Stoneboat. Do you take-off down wind? To take-off into wind you have to taxi out into the open water with gusty winds, judge how much room you need to take-off, conduct a safe turn into wind (dangerous in a loaded Otter due to burying a float nose and the risk of capsizing) and takeoff into the bay, into rising ground, gusty winds and other aircraft taking off down-wind? Can you turn away from the hill? Can you outclimb it? How big can the swells be at the beginning of your takeoff? Is it better to 'sail' back to the take-off position or will you bury the floats backwards? What's the tide doing?

The downwind take-off - do you leave the rudders down for the first part lest torque start you weathercocking? Into that float-house? They don't want you starting inside the bay due to noise and the risk of hitting a boom-boat. I always left the power on take-off until I got to climb flaps and that helped, but you were taking a pounding for a while until you got some altitude. Wow look at those whitecaps - where do I go if the engine quits? Straight ahead, into the swells, downwind. Probably not a good place to be and arguably unsurvivable.

No logger would ever get home on a Friday night if there were no down-wind take-offs, but I still don't like them and feel my most vulnerable doing one.

[angry inch]

The hazards associated with attempting/conducting downwind takeoffs is a subject worthy of much discussion with regards to improving sea plane safety everywhere... not just on the west coast. This is the type of issue that a chief pilot needs to be sure his guys/girls are aware of limitations, especially the local knowledge part. Although it seems the most effective learning method is surviving the "school of hard knocks", surely something is gained from listening to the voice of experience. Like "Cat".

I believe improving safety on the west coast is possible. I'm just rather skeptical that it can be done without turning the entire industry upside down. Real safety costs. It's as simple as that. With margins being as tight as they are in these operations, it's nearly impossible to make changes that really result in marked improvements to safety. The flying public would have to be educated to the point of accepting that safety is expensive.

-more, widespread & up to date weather reporting
-a willingness to cancel many more flights
-modernization of the fleet
-better & continual training
-better schedules
-better maintenance

These are just a few things that would contribute to added safety, and although some companies are making a reasonable effort with what they can afford, prices would have to be raised significantly to be able to absorb the extra cost associated with implementing real safety.
You can't just write a nice little manual talking about a "culture of safety" & expect that things will be fine.

There is much inherent danger involved with seaplane operations. You must control every single thing that you can in order to stay as safe as you can.

[Cat Driver]

I chose the down wind take off as a starting point to analyze the risks that pilots accept in sea plane operations that are part of operating on water.

I chose the word " culture " because it is a word that describes how pilots think and act in each area of flying. For instance the thought processes involved in a take off by an airline crew compared to a sea plane pilot are very different and there is a real difference in the level of risk one crew will accept compared to the other.

When the wrong decision is made all that separates the airline crew from the sea plane crew is the number of people that get killed.

The cost factor in this discussion on how to improve safety is not really the most difficult part of this issue to worry about, what needs to be identified is getting everyone working together to improve the industry.

I have believed for many decades that the most powerful group to best work towards improving safety is the chief pilots.

Get the chief pilots organized in a cohesive group that will support each other using existing laws to police the industry and real improvement can be realized wherein everyone works on the same level of safety and any increase in operating cost is evenly spread throughout the industry.

Operators who choose to cut corners to undercut their competition will find it difficult to stay in business without a chief pilot.

[Cat Driver]

I am writing this stuff while I am waiting for my work shop to warm up enough so I can comfortably work on my Cub building project.

If I am going to take part in this forum I have decided to try and motivate those who work in the industry to examine how their industry can be improved.

[angry inch]

Get the chief pilots organized in a cohesive group that will support each other using existing laws to police the industry and real improvement can be realized wherein everyone works on the same level of safety and any increase in operating cost is evenly spread throughout the industry.

[MichaelP]

There's an excellent book, it's title is Sagittarius Rising, and in it Cecil Lewis describes how he tried the downwind takeoff (perhaps it was a Camel) during World War One.
There is nothing new in what we do and if we are well read we can learn the lessons of history.

We were departing to do the November 11th fly past one year. The wind was strong and across Delta's runway and this meant a downwind turn crosswind on departure.
I was giving them a warning and was shot down by someone who said "let's put that old thing to rest"... He thought I was going to talk about perhaps losing airspeed when turning out of wind.
Let's not argue that one...
What I was most concerned about was the illusions such a turn would create, and it is these illusions that are dangerous.

I flew with a student the other day who had come from another school.
He'd done 'Illusions' before but some instructors will not fly with their students if the wind exceeds 15 knots!
It was a gusty windy day and so we flew around the Pitt Lake marshes at 500 feet and learned about illusions in the strong winds.
Not many students get a convincing lesson.

First things learned are very important, and it is very difficult to get rid of original bad habits passed on to the student in his/her early days.
Here on the coast the winds and terrain combine to make decisions difficult. We must imagine the stream of air flowing over and around the rocks while we are immersed in that stream.

So with the same student on a cold but clear day with no wind we flew into the Pitt Lake and did forced landings there.
We began each time over the Widgeon Creek at 3,000 feet. Each time we climbed we did nearly 1,000 feet per minute in the 80hp Katana! How?
Terrain can be used to advantage too.

We're all still learning, and we all have decisions to make every day. Never stop reading.

[tzu]

Irrelevant.

Discussion is about downwind takeoffs with a seaplane... circuits on a katana not applicable.

[sky's the limit]

Irrelevant.

Discussion is about downwind takeoffs with a seaplane... circuits on a katana not applicable.

I beg to differ.

There are relevant lessons to be learned from ALL sectors of flying that can be applied across the board, and sound decision making processes are one of them.

You probably wouldn't imagine there's much of a link between shooting an ILS in a King Air and setting a 100ft tower on top of a mountain with a helicopter - but there is. Point being, we ALL have something to contribute when it comes to float-plane safety here on the Coast.

Cat chose to start the discussion using the d/w take-off scenario, but as he suggested, it is only to gauge the attitudes toward acceptable risks. Risks are part of flying, particularly here, and how we educate ourselves, manage, and mitigate those risks is what we get paid for.

stl

[tzu]

I beg to differ.

There are relevant lessons to be learned from ALL sectors of flying that can be applied across the board, and sound decision making processes are one of them.

Agreed.

Decision making is the number 1 factor in all safe flying operations. There are plenty of threads that give excellent insight on the illusions created by drift, and up/down drafts. However, I think the discussion of a downwind takeoff with floats is quite unique, and is paramount when discussing "improving safety on the west coast in seaplanes" (dwind takeoffs probably deserves its own thread)-

[Cat Driver]

Michael works in sector of aviation that is the corner stone for starting the thinking process of future pilots.

I would be interested in hearing his thoughts on the teaching of down wind take offs, our first exposures to these things are what help mold the rest of our career.

[Cat Driver]

Tzu rather than start a new thread on down wind take offs lets thrash it out here and invite everyone to give their thoughts from students to heavy jet crews.

[snoopy]

Once airborne, an airplane is an airplane - the wind does not care what kind of shoes the aircraft is wearing - the same performance degradation applies to all. And the question remains: is the degradation of performance less of a risk than other factors such as terrain and obstacle clearance, swells, runway conditions, frozen drift conditions (skis) etc. The answer will depend on the particular circumstance, pilot skill level and type of aircraft at a given moment in time.

Kirsten B.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I treid to do at least one downwind takeoff and landing with every CPL student I taught. As was pointed out in an earlier post downwind takeoffs are not in themselves dangerous, what is dangerous is performing them with out a concious thought as to the potential risks or even worse without even knowing the risks

[seniorpumpkin]

Cat, you mentioned:

Generally one will find that sea plane pilots will conduct far more down wind take offs than land plane pilots will and some pilots will accept higher and higher tail winds on take off as they gain experience

I think this is very true, and I think perhaps I can share some insights into why.
On land, if you try a downwind take-off and it doesn't work out, the consequences are easy to see, rolling it up in a ball off the end of the runway is the obvious result. In a float plane, in most cases, a take-off run could go on for over a mile without those kinds of consequences. This gives float pilots lots of safe opportunities to practice down wind take-offs without the risk of overrunning the runway; granted, porpoising is still a risk, and in some cases there is very rough water near the end of the slide. I think that perhaps it's simply a matter of being aware of all the factors, and knowing your ship and how she handles.
Whenever I do a downwind take-off, I specifically mention it in my take-off briefing, just to be sure that extra diligence is on our minds.

[angry inch]

Decision making is certainly key to not only success, but survival... Seaplane pilots often don't know what the winds are doing at their destination prior to departing,(if we know conditions are poor, we can stay put..) let alone up to date en-route reporting & amended forecasting. There are spots where a fixed wing pilot is faced with the decision of committing him/herself, or not, to a landing miles before reaching the landing/takeoff zone due to combination's of ceiling, wind, and terrain, thus putting himself in the position of assessing whether a downwind departure can be attempted. No SOP, no windsock, no second pilot, marginally performing, heavily loaded aircraft, daylight restrictions, a plane load of anxious passengers, etc,etc. It often boils down to one decision by one pilot. Hands and feet skills don't mean shit once you have made that one bad choice, or inaccurate assessment. We get lulled in to a false sense of security by having "done it before" and may refuse to acknowledge our own vulnerability when limits are slowly increased over time by either a group or individual. (lack of enforcement, or operational control) What becomes normal for one, could be considered insanity by another.

A seaplane pilot accepting the risk of a marginal downwind takeoff often has different options... (than 2 crew sitting in an airliner waiting for clearances & instructions, with SOP's, training & redundancies out the whazoo & lets not forget nowadays that wonderful simulator where a crash means you buy the beer...) Take the downwind, taxi & t/o into rising terrain/descending wind, or wait. The safest decision being to wait, is the most difficult. (but why?) Once again it's the individual assessment, judgement, and final decision of one person. VFR pilots are out there making decision after decision, with varying degrees of support from their peers, employers, industry, and even passengers.

There's more to it than my modest experience affords me to know. I know several seaplane pilots who I would have considered to be very experienced, level headed individuals that crashed. Some are here still, some are dead and gone. This industry is so backwards that the most inexperienced are teaching the newcomers, and the newcomers often are put in the most challenging circumstances while beginning their enrollment in "The School of Hard Knocks" where failure can have dire consequences...

[Cat Driver]

When you first started doing down wind take offs on water did you clearly understand the difference in the physics involved between a land based down wind take off and a water based down wind take off?

Do you or your company have a maximum wind strength for each type airplane when deciding to take off down wind on the water?

How do you judge wind speed before deciding to take off or land down wind on the water?