Taking a 22 month old up in a 152?

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ogc
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Taking a 22 month old up in a 152?

Post by ogc » Sat Apr 03, 2010 6:40 pm

My sister and her 22 month old son (mostly him) has recently expressed a great interest in going up in the air.

I just wanted to confirm that it is perfectly legal for us to fly in a 152 with her in the passenger seat holding him securely in her lap?

I looked through the CARS and that is the only thing I could find in regards to infants.

I have access to a 172, would it be better to use that and put him in a car seat? My only concern there is that the little guy wont be able to see anything (and more likely would get air sick)

I have ear protection for him, just wanted to make sure it was okay for mother to carry the child on her lap in a 152.

Are there any other rules to be aware of?
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Re: Taking a 22 month old up in a 152?

Post by erics2b » Sat Apr 03, 2010 6:48 pm

I logged my first hour of dual at 6 months... :smt102

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Re: Taking a 22 month old up in a 152?

Post by North Shore » Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:06 pm

I'm not sure I'd be too quick to take a two year-old up in a 152. I'm sure, if he gets interested in what his uncle is doing, that he'll get all squirmy, despite your sister's best efforts, and that could hamper your flying. Murphy's law would dictate that would be right at the time that you need to pay the most attention to flying. Much better, IMO, to rent a 172, and put him in a car seat, making sure that he can see out, and do it that way. When you get back on the ground, you can let him sit up front and wiggle the controls..

My $.02
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Re: Taking a 22 month old up in a 152?

Post by Pratt » Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:12 pm

As far as being legal I would imagine it would be the same as if they were pax on a commercial flight, I think it is up to two years they are considered an infant and can/should be held by the adult. Don't know what they say about using a car seat.
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Re: Taking a 22 month old up in a 152?

Post by Brown Bear » Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:14 pm

Go for it.
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Re: Taking a 22 month old up in a 152?

Post by Dust Devil » Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:24 pm

my 1 week old is going up tomorrow
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Re: Taking a 22 month old up in a 152?

Post by iflyforpie » Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:37 pm

I took my daughter up at three months, but she was in a car seat in the back of a Cherokee.

CARS do not require the use of car seats at all, but we always put our kids in them because:

1) They are safer, and

2) We usually need the car seat where we are going (pretty much all of our family flying has actually been going somewhere).

I would not have the child held on a lap in a front seat. It could be dangerous if the child interferes with or accidentally blocks the controls. Also, with all the buzz in the Obits (ASL) about pilots not wearing shoulder harnesses and being killed or badly injured; it is mind boggling to think about an infant totally unrestrained in the front seat during a crash...
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Re: Taking a 22 month old up in a 152?

Post by Invertago » Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:51 pm

Can you do it legally... yes...

Is it safe... no IMO (I've seen the difference between two adults in a C172 and one had a loose seat belt in a crash. It was scratches on one, broken bones for the guy with the loose seat belt.)

You can fly 99.9% of the time with out a seat belt your self and get away with it... but...

PDM, its your call in the end, you'll probably get away with it.
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Re: Taking a 22 month old up in a 152?

Post by Airtids » Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:53 pm

They definitely get interested:
Image

Then they get bored:

Image

Then they get serious:

Image

We got Lil' Airtids a youth DC, but you could just use a touque with earflaps and stuff the flaps with kleenex for a little hearing protection. Now she's 6, and has about 60 hours dual...

Go for it! I've taken TONS of little ones up. Be prepared to turn around immediately if it's just not their thing, and you WILL know right away! We also always put our kids in the carseat for takeoff and landing. They won't be able to see anything from their perch in the back, so feel free to take them out in flight. If you can't keep a 22 month old from interfering with the flight controls, good luck with the rest of their upbringing!!
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Re: Taking a 22 month old up in a 152?

Post by Brown Bear » Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:56 pm

iflyforpie wrote:I took my daughter up at three months, but she was in a car seat in the back of a Cherokee.

CARS do not require the use of car seats at all,
Sure they do. Try driving a Buick, Ford or Toyota with a child without one... Indeed, CARS do require car seats!
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Re: Taking a 22 month old up in a 152?

Post by Mapleflt » Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:15 pm

Buy him a toy airplane, every time he plays with it scold him. That way he will grow up to hate airplanes. Sounds like tough love but in the end he will thank you.
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Re: Taking a 22 month old up in a 152?

Post by Invertago » Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:10 pm

MapleFlag wrote:Buy him a toy airplane, every time he plays with it scold him. That way he will grow up to hate airplanes. Sounds like tough love but in the end he will thank you.

lol +1
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Re: Taking a 22 month old up in a 152?

Post by North Shore » Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:27 pm

Love the pics, Airtids.
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Re: Taking a 22 month old up in a 152?

Post by Rowdy » Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:29 pm

I 100% agree with 'tids! I've flown a couple of friends and they're young ones and I spent tons of time up front as a kid myself too.
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Re: Taking a 22 month old up in a 152?

Post by Bede » Sun Apr 04, 2010 2:35 am

Mine always fall asleep. Never saw a problem.
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Re: Taking a 22 month old up in a 152?

Post by SAR_YQQ » Sun Apr 04, 2010 9:07 am

Car seat <period>. If you hit some turbulence or a rough landing - that baby is going flying.

I've done a rescue where the only survivor was the three year old in the car seat.
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Re: Taking a 22 month old up in a 152?

Post by RVgrin » Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:39 am

For safety of the child: *definitely* use a car seat. Please treat that cargo as precious.

Three other considerations not mentioned:

1) Your insurance might not cover more than one body per seat. Which means you are not legal even if child is under two.
2)A tantrum/squirming incident that doesn't affect your controls may still be sufficiently stressful and distracting as to cause a problem.
3) Don't forget hearing protection. Earplugs *and* headset.
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Re: Taking a 22 month old up in a 152?

Post by Ballsssssss » Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:47 am

Everyone is talking about the legality of it and car seats etc while no one has asked "Are you an experienced Pilot?" I would be more concerned with the real safety of the situation as opposed to the paper safety.

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Re: Taking a 22 month old up in a 152?

Post by joco » Sun Apr 04, 2010 6:04 pm

ogc wrote:My sister and her 22 month old son (mostly him) has recently expressed a great interest in going up in the air.

I just wanted to confirm that it is perfectly legal for us to fly in a 152 with her in the passenger seat holding him securely in her lap?
We had our son at 15 mo traveling YYZ to VIE (over 9 hr flt) in our arms and they gave us an infant seatbelt with a loop that got attached to the parent seat belt. Holding the infant in the mother's arms is not a good idea.
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Re: Taking a 22 month old up in a 152?

Post by RatherBeFlying » Sun Apr 04, 2010 6:54 pm

My older son first flew in a C-172 at 26 months or so in a car seat. Did a checkout circuit with him in the back; then dumped the instructor, moved him to the front seat and went for a longer flight. He needed a reminder to keep his hands off the yoke; however his tummy had a problem with crosswind landings in the flare. As in any emergency, flying the airplane comes first and cleanup later. Bring extra clothes.

For some reason he took fright on overwater approaches.

Held in a lap ain't gonna work in the mildest of crashes; i.e. the kid will be a projectile in the last moments of his life.
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Re: Taking a 22 month old up in a 152?

Post by SunWuKong » Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:20 am

Having a crash with a C152 is not something impossible. Will you take a baby on your motorcycle then drive through the city? If yes then I guess It is Ok to take this baby up in a single piston engine. A baby, if still alive after the crash, is not able to escape a fire, or to look for help. In addition you cannot really affirm he agreed to take such a risk. If it were you own kid it would maybe be different...
Personnaly I have always refused to carry babies in a single piston engine.
I am quite sure nothing will happen... Meanwhile I am also quite sure single piston engines crash very regularly...

What does the father think about it?
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Re: Taking a 22 month old up in a 152?

Post by CD » Mon Apr 05, 2010 5:22 am

joco wrote:We had our son at 15 mo traveling YYZ to VIE (over 9 hr flt) in our arms and they gave us an infant seatbelt with a loop that got attached to the parent seat belt. Holding the infant in the mother's arms is not a good idea.
An approved CRS is the best way to transport an infant as the loop belt isn't ideal either.
JAR-OPS 1.320 and 1.730 outline, among other things, the transportation of infants and children. The provisions allow multiple occupancy of aircraft passenger seats. Accordingly, infants (< 2 years) are properly transported on an adult's lap. JAR OPS 1.730 further regulates that an operator is only allowed to operate an aircraft if he or she provides an additional loop belt or other restraint device for each infant.
*
For the transportation of infants on an adult's lap, the adult is restrained with a pelvic belt, and the infant is fixed on the adult's lap with an additional loop belt.
*
In a suddenly occurring deceleration in the longitudinal aircraft axis, the adult and the infant show a pronounced jack-knife effect. The upper torso and the lower extremities of the infant as well as of the adult sitting behind the infant fold up in a forward direction, with the loop belt restraining the infant. Finally, the loop belt drives into the infant's abdomen and only stops at his or her vertebral spine. From the technical point of view, the infant acts like an energy absorption element for the adult; the crash loads acting on the adult are thus reduced, and the infant fixed with the loop belt thus suffers most serious up to fatal injuries.

Examination on the Enhancement of Cabin Safety for Infants
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Re: Taking a 22 month old up in a 152?

Post by Dust Devil » Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:53 am

if still alive after the crash, is not able to escape a fire, or to look for help.
Valid point but it's a risk not unsafe. There is a difference
In addition you cannot really affirm he agreed to take such a risk. If it were you own kid it would maybe be different...
Personally my daughter does not consent to anything. I'm the Dad and my word is law. I determine what my daughter consents to until I'm convinced she has the judgment to do so on her own (probably somewhere around her 42nd birthday) That said a child should not be taken up without parents consent. If a parent consents then it matters zip what the child consents too. Parents are the boss children are not.
Meanwhile I am also quite sure single piston engines crash very regularly...
really? I think that is a false statement. I'd say even single engine aircraft crashes are not very regular. They happen but it is hardly normal
What does the father think about it?
I would assume if the child is in the plane the father or mother should be well aware of where their child is.
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Re: Taking a 22 month old up in a 152?

Post by Moose47 » Mon Apr 05, 2010 12:30 pm

My brother was 11 weeks old when we flew from RCAF Unit Fort Churchill to Winnipeg (February 7th, 1961) in the back of a C-119 Flying Boxcar. We were 13,000 feet enroute. Cold and drafty and you could see the light of day between the clam shell doors He stayed in my mothers arms the whole way.

The question arose at our COPA Flight meeting one night. It was felt that a car seat is the only viable and responsible solution. Otherwise you are needlessy putting the baby at risk.

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Re: Taking a 22 month old up in a 152?

Post by nofate » Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:15 pm

I took my friend and his two year old daughter up for a ride in a 172 aseveral years ago. The little girl was strapped in the back seat and fell asleep while taxiing for takeoff. She woke up when we landed so her first flight didn't leave much of an impression on her. :)
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