Paying less to stay in business?

[Ralliart]

I wonder how many companies out there would cease to exist if they paid their employees properly (better)?

A while ago, I had an offer to work for a company for a ridiculously low salary. After declining, it got me thinking. I always believed this company to be a pretty decent operation, and must be doing something right to have stayed in the game as long as they have, while competitors have come and gone. After learning the pay, it lead me to believe that a significant reason they can afford to stay afloat, is by relying on the dumb suckers who accept to work for what they offer.

Do you know of any ops out there, that get by through saving on low pay? How many companies would go under, if they started paying at least "industry standard"?

I believe if you can't afford to do things right (maintenance, wages, etc.) then you shouldn't be operating at all.

[iflyforpie]

Pilot's salary is the only negotiable part of the operation. Fuel, maintenance (well, parts anyways), insurance, NavCan fees, TC fees, aircraft purchase, heat, power, rent, lease, mortgage are all pretty hard costs. People's passion for aviation and the surplus of pilots makes wages an easy place to cut costs.

[Nark]

...
Do you know of any ops out there, that get by through saving on low pay? How many companies would go under, if they started paying at least "industry standard"?...

A lot.

After learning of a few part 135 ops(comparable to 703/704) pay shitwages. ie $2000/month for caravan; I tossed my hat in the ring so to speak and withdrew an application for this upcoming fall season. I currently make more during my summer months Apr-Sep flying a piston single, then they make all year.

However I'm on the fence with another job that pays crap in the beginning, but the pro's out way the cons in the long run.

[husky]

I believe if you can't afford to do things right (maintenance, wages, etc.) then you shouldn't be operating at all.

Who is to say that paying a meagre wage isn't right? Lets face it, there are a lot of professional, well run companies, that get all the pilots they need, with the experience and professionalism required to meet the business plan they have in mind, for very marginal wages. What possible incentive is there for them to pay higher wages?

A lot of these companies have excellent maintenance, because that is a whole different situation than paying pilots a poor wage.

[whipline]

Here's a crazy thought. Why don't we all get together and make our wages fixed? I forgot, we would all have to get in line and stop backstabbing our own. Dream the Dream.

[Ralliart]

Husky,

I'm not referring to the companies that intentionally pay crap, because they can. Many companies could afford to pay more, but don't need to. If they did pay more, they would likely still make a healthy profit.

I'm thinking about a few companies who can not afford to pay more than they do, otherwise they would just break even, or loose money. They bank on the fact that there will always be a line of willing pilots available to work for their crap offering. And by working for next to nothing, those employees help subsidize the company and keep it running.

It's sad.

[MUSKEG]

It's all relative. To beat the tax man they need to purchase more aircraft, then they need more pilots that will work for chump change thus creating the need to buy more aircraft. Then the toys need to be serviced and trailers and trucks bought to transport said toys to approriate playground, helicopters and stunt planes need hangerage. Homes in warm places (with private jets to get there and Escalades in the garage), need gardeners and servants that also work for chump change and all this because "WE JUST LOVE TO FLY'' Look in the mirror. It will never change. If you spend the same money required to get the qualifications needed to go entry level, on a different vocation, many businesses will kiss your butt to get you to work for them. But--------- "WE LOVE TO FLY".

[200hr Wonder]

There are two points of view:

The business

As a business man it is imperative to make money. That is the only reason for the business to exist. If it does not make money all other points are moot. So it is managements mandate to keep costs as low as possible. They do this by negating the lowest possible fuel prices, rent on hangar space and so forth. Other choices are a little more fuzzy. Do you buy a lower time air frame for more capital but make that up by having a higher dispatch rate and lower maintenance costs or go with the higher time air frame and take the hit in operating cost? Most of these things are somewhat quantifiable and come down to capital in the bank. When it comes to staffing most of these companies see pilots and especially first officers simply as an expense. Required to keep the operating going. If you can get a pilot of the same quality for $28,000/yr as apposed to $38,000/yr of course you will take the $28k option. You would be doing a disservice to your share holders otherwise. Even if that share holder is just you. Captains have a little more pull because with there experience they can make sure that equipment is used in an optimal manner to extend life etc. Of course the most important thing of all is that the plane gets home into the barn safe and sound at the end of each flight.

The Employee

Of course we want to make more money and the only way we are ever going to do it is to band together. The problem with pilots is we forget where we come from so fast and we back stab each other at the lowest ranks just to get that coveted job, be it right seat on the Navajo, right seat on the turbine and so on. At the company level all the Captains need to band together WITH the first officers and say to management, we can be your greatest asset, or we can cost money. Lets pay fair and treat everyone with respect and keep them around. I mean how many of you as you gain experience can notice long before anything happens, that hey the right engine on the plane is running a little hotter these days. Preventative things like that? Or as you gain local knowledge can shave that 0.1 off the air time. Even better here in the rocks now the tips and tricks of where to find the holes in cloud cover to make a safe VFR approach on a day when maybe you would not get in otherwise? All these things save the company money and make customers happy. The problem it seems is a lot of companies don't appreciate it. How often do you see a well experienced FO quit before getting the captain seat just because of lack of movement and crap pay? Or a good captain quit because they have maxed out what they are going to get and it is less than the guy driving the city bus? Or companies taking everything they can from the employee. Keeping every little thing to the bare minimum standards. For example a charter outfit that is charging $250/night/crew member for the over night charge and then getting a measly $30 when you know the hotel is not $220/night! It happens all the time and kills morale. Requiring pilots to be on standby for no pay. I could go on and on about these sorts of things. The only way they will improve if we all band together at the company level. Get all your pilots to say no we want more. Most places can not replace all the captains. The FOs NEED support of the higher time guys because they can be replaced easily. And the low time guys need to quit stabbing each other in the back.

Personally I think wages for FOs should start:

Year Amount
1 35K
2 40K
3 50K
4 55K
5 60K

Capt

Year Amount
1 50K
2 55K
3 60K
4 65K
5 70K

Sure the first year is a little lean but hey training is expensive. Then after the first couple of years they need to pay to keep the experience around! Then again I guess I am dreaming.

[Carrier]

Some pertinent quotes from Michael O'Leary of Ryanair:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/weird ... ml?image=5

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/weird ... ml?image=6

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/weird ... ml?image=7

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/weird ... ml?image=8

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/weird ... l?image=10

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/weird ... l?image=11

[Panama Jack]

Oh Leary.

Go suck a . . . .

[medEvac]

i just read the quotes from mr. ryan air,

what does the future hold for us aspiring pilots

god help us if this is the way of the future!

[Donald]

Pay less for salary, and you will pay more for training and equipment abuse. As well, some charter clients prefer to always fly with the same guys, turnover could result in loss of business.

Pay more for salary, and you may avoid some of those problems.

Then again, maybe not.

[bcflyer]

Unfortunately many clients start out saying they want certain requirements from a charter company but when the people in charge of the all mighty dollar start looking at things, you would be surprised at how quickly those requirements can drop. When I worked charter we had a very large contract with a customer who insisted on twin engine pressurized aircraft with high time requirements for the crew. The same company now flies around in PC-12's and as far as I know have dropped their the time requirements as well..

Sad but true.

[oldncold]

WHOA there ,after 5230 hrs in the 12 it is a great machine regardless of the single vs twin debate 250kt block speed burning 330 lbs of jet at fl270 range and alternates are usually a mute point /ex cyyz to jamica with fuel to spare non stop.


the economics will ALWAYS drive the biz pilots are foolish to believe otherwise there was a similar thread about a year ago re two crew and the single crew debate with the automation debate . . what the pilot group needs to remember in my humble opinion is to be humble we are not the greatest invention since sliced bread . THINK about that for a moment// A hundread yrs ago there was barely 10 jobs in the entire country as pilot. a hundred yrs ago the primary form of transporttion was the HORSE . today you could barely find reference to the job other than a jockey in the stats canada info .

to the owners who expect everything and pay little just know you will get yours just reward in the next life it is karma and it is enevitable. my advice keep your skills current with the times, suck no dik or give no quarter for the politically correct types and give 100% for 100% pay
captain 75k > f/0 50 k 3k raise for every yr there after.