Buttonville Airport . . . CYKZ

[robbreid]

As it seems I may be retiring from posting on AvCanada, I thought I'd go out with one of my pet Peeves;

the lack of anyone attempting to save Buttonville. Is the aviation community just going to kick back without a fight
and allow the eventual closure of Buttonville???

There are afew users of the airport that are extremely wealthy with aviation interests. Maybe they could sign on.

In the meantime, I never understood why the owners of YKZ, wouldn't secure a line of credit at one of our major banks
to fund flight training students. Instead they go out of their way to attract students from the other side of the planet.

Once trained, we'll never see them again at YKZ, they won't base a plane there, and won't even be around to support
aviation in Canada.

For the very survival of the airport we should be promoting aviation locally.

As for the flight line visitors - nice to see a few biz jets, yet compared to Pearson - YKZ is clearly a underused corporate
field. If I was the FBO manager, or even worked on the flightline, I'd be tracking what small to mid size jets use Pearson, and be
using databases to contact the flight crews to YKZ - and I'd be doing it every day.

So, if you have a negative response, a non-contributing comment - please start your own thread and attract your kind,
please leave this thread alone and allow for some positive feedback.

What are some positive actions that can be taken to promote Buttonville Airport??? Not just promote but to improve the
quality, it's use, fund flight training - anything positive.

[Hedley]

Personally, I'm amazed that all of Buttonville / Brampton / Burlington haven't been sold off to build condos.

Each must be worth a billion (?) dollars in the insane Toronto real estate market.

And sooner or later, Toronto Island will be shut down by the condo commandos. Not sure how it's still open after all these decades of whining and politicking.

Really, general aviation doesn't exactly have a bright future in Toronto. I'm not being negative, just realistic.

[Canuck223]

I see the other side of the equation on a regular basis. My hobby is target shooting. In many ways, gun clubs in the fringe around our citys are experiencing the same type of pressure from outside.

Property values are climbing as the city expands to meet or surrounds the formerly rural range.
New neighbours whine and complain about the inconvienience of the noise and assumed environmental impact of the range.
Local politicians climb on board, as the users of the range often live outside the area.
Developers work with legal teams and local politicians to harrass and by-law the range out of existance.

When ever I see Buttonville in the local news or papers, it seems to be either a complaint about it existing in a built up area, or complaints about the building restrictions in the area because it exists, or a suggestion of a bail out to keep it in operation.

If I was the property owner, I'd need to have a pretty thick skin and steady income stream to justify the heartburn.

[CanterburyTail]

And sooner or later, Toronto Island will be shut down by the condo commandos. Not sure how it's still open after all these decades of whining and politicking.

Not so sure on that one. Community Air has been losing support constantly these last several years. The demographic around the airport has changed from whining people who want their peace, to professional couples in all the new condos for whom having an airport on their doorstep is a godsend. Ever since all the condos started going up about 6 years ago, the demographics of the entire southern part of that ward has changed completely.

[Boreas]

Does anybody actually know when its supposed to be closing? It seems that there has been talk about this for a very long time, yet...

[robbreid]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSsQlZ8TB5Q Mr. Sifton speaks about the airport and closure at 2:24 into video

According to Mr. Sifton, he only assures us that Buttonville will be in operation for the next 4 years, after which time
the plans will be in place to shut it down.

[howard40]

I used the Bearskin airlines 6 flights a day to ottawa deal via pilatus and it was very good.
I suppose it did not have enough seats to be really viable.
Sched service would sure help.
Regards
I sure do not want to see it closed. when the powers that be sent GA packing from Pearson, they sort of promised to keep buttonville open, or help keep buttonville open. The Pickering airport seems to still not be completely dead?
HMMMM
they Pickering deal if it opens will not be GA friendly... no matter what they promise.
We need more people flying, and more people learning to fly to keep it all going.
I am somewhat disappointed the corporate side has not chimed in a bit louder. There are some heavy hitters with Magna etc based at KZ. They of course will get and be able to afford space at pickering if needed.

[teacher]

I heard from some folks a few years back that Jets Go's $99 return fares sank the Bearskin YKZ-YOW run. No matter what you're flying you just can't make moeny charging that price.

As for YKZ it is a real shame. I used to go in there a lot to pick up or drop off passengers but like it was mentioned above, these airports sit on some prime relestate and sadly money talks, airplanes don't.

[Jack Klumpus]

Some reasons that sank JV's YKZ-YOW sched was the new plane, new base with no real direction. Snags associated with a new plane, coupled with them constantly changing the sched times, cancelling flights, etc, scared passengers away.

Had they done a better job managing that run, it would've still been in service.

[bigguy1]

I believe the biggest thing lacking at Buttonville is customer service. To many people I know it's "my money or it's your money" mindset...same with the flight school. A lot of my buddies who are trying to get their licenses done are tired of getting shafted by the Chinese students and being demotivated by instructors who get the bookings for the same aircraft taken away. Also, I'm sure the only reason why other business aircraft (i.e. King Airs) choose Buttonville over Pearson is definitely not a matter of a simple fee of $30 or something around that range. It's the customer service. When I flew to the United States, I flew into Pentastar aviation. I could not believe the quality of service I received, people coming out to whole heartedly greet me, and also receiving a card in the mail today from their customer service rep thanking me for the service and wishing that my stay in the USA with my wife was great. Buttonville doesn't do that. The corporate interest does not balance out with the customer service.

Also, it makes sense in the media why it's getting a bad rep...there is bad communication. I mean when the Buttonville Flying Club goes flying with kids, why isn't there media attention? That's some good stuff taken on by a select group of individuals. I would put Mark Brooks, the president of BFC in charge of the airport, or in charge of GA relations...there couldn't be a more welcoming person.

I would recommend Buttonville do the following (although they probably wouldn't care):

1. Email their students and former students (who have graduated or left flying because of costs) and foster a relationship and bond. If that particular person cannot go back into flying, word of mouth of a highly recommended business does wonders. (in this case, a flight school)
2. Email or mail business people who have chosen to fly into Buttonville, or use one of the charters, and thank them for their visit.
3. Send out mass emails per month of flying tips, (i.e. tips to remember when flying on a hot day), basic stuff that will keep people engaged.
4. Provide more value to the instructors and assist them on a career goal. When you have motivated employees who want to use instruction as a means to further their career, and you add value to them, they will add value to the students. If you take care of the instructors, the instructors will take care of the students, and the students will take care of the corporate interests of the airport. It's the same with the staff at Million Air (although a good bunch and very friendly)
5. Send the instructors on team building exercises - I do sense poison amongst a select few. There needs to be more people like Eugene at the counter who is very welcoming.
6. Perhaps work out a shuttle service from the Seneca campus to the airport every two hours, free for Toronto Airways students, and perhaps a small fee for others. I know of tons of young pilots who can't afford a car as they are trying to save the money for their flight training and therefore, can't make it to Buttonville. But if there was a shuttle and drop them off to a convenient TTC access point, i.e. the Seneca campus), what's $5 return gas for x amount of students compared to increased accessibility??
7. Maybe Toronto Airways should consider advertising at the upcoming Ontario College/University Fair....high school students can meet one on one with instructors and find out about their programs.

Overall, I love Buttonville, but there needs to be things done to get it's face out there positively and dominantly. They know what they can do.

[BeechjetYKZ]

How much traffic does Porter, Jazz and Continental get from YTZ that is really localized to the downtown core? To me (being in Northern GTA) going to YTZ is a hassle as there is no sufficient parking and I don't want to drag suitcases on buses, subways, and ferries. Driving to YYZ is much easier in my mind as it is quicker and easier than trekking downtown in core traffic. I believe there is sufficient wealth in the Northern GTA that may be able to support flights out of YKZ. Heck, there are enough Montrealers that fly ex-YYZ regularly that live in the York area to fill several Dash-8s. How about a YKZ-YQA cottager express that includes rental car?

[gustind]

Million Air's service sucks. Period. Their gas is over priced. The only good thing would be their pilot lounge, arguably.

[Boreas]

...Buttonville will be in operation for the next 4 years, after which time
the plans will be in place to shut it down.

[flyinggreasemonkey]

Nobody cares because it's in the GTA...Frankly I think a good sized chunk of the Canadian population wouldn't care if the entire GTA was shut down.

[kzcvtm]

There was a time when we had Maple, King City and Buttonville, Markham, Toronto Island and Brampton. They eliminated Maple and King City for development purposes. Now we have the owners of Buttonville having a pi$$ing match in order to get more federal dollars to assist with general maintenance of the aprons and runways or they will shut down operations. Kinda like I'm taking my ball and going home.

The money they charge for rentals is likely the highest in the country, not to mention the amount charged for avgas. The profits made here are rarely used for improvements to the property or in particular their fleet of aircraft. Unfortunately for GA, there is very few options other than to go to the Island, Brampton or up to Barrie for instruction or aircraft rentals.

What is the solution? Who knows? Those with the big bucks control the show, us consumers are left on the sidelines with very little to say about it and it frustrates the hell out of me. No one listens to the few pilots as compared to the large amount of property owners and taxpayers in the area.

GA is on a decline in Canada. Is there any friendly faces on Parliament Hill that can assist or are we SOL?

[Hedley]

GA is on a decline in Canada

Yes, but you are right for the wrong reasons. You have your "GTA is the whole world" glasses on.

There are GA airports outside of Toronto, too. And they're all in trouble, because they've been dumped on municipalities who don't know anything about aviation and couldn't care less.

IMHO Buttonville, Bramption and Burlington are all doomed because of population pressure. Sooner or later, someone's going to want to build rabbit-warren condos on all that empty space and run away with a billion bucks.

But the bigger problem for GA is outside of Toronto, where all the small airports are on the endangered species list, and no one cares.

[yycflyguy]

As it seems I may be retiring from posting on AvCanada

I am sorry to hear that. Hope you have a change of heart and continue to post I as find your contributions much more global and informative than the majority.

[skymarc]

So were would all the aircraft go when or if they do close CYKZ?

There is some land for sale north that I keep seing advertised that there used to be an airport in the 60s ? Why dont a couple of business buy it and build an airport on it?

I hate seing airport close but we wont win with this attitude of burying our head in the sand.
Once the airport are turned private and the land is of high value, its doomed.

[robbreid]

I recall discussion of moving the entire operation to Markham Airport, which isn't too far away.
There is also 600 acres available, and according to the info below states they could build two
8000 foot runways?

Interesting to note, the wikipedia page?, states the Thomson Family own the airport? I had
never heard that before.


http://www.vocalvoice.ca/html/the_facts.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto/Markham_Airport

Alright, now this is getting interesting; http://www.iaaecanada.org/fend/article_ ... cle_id=436

[robbreid]

I can only assume, The Sifton's, The Thomson's, and Stronach among others aren't somehow communicating with each other. Not to mention whoever owns that new Falcon 7X FlightExec is operating - I assume it's the locally owned computer chip company in Markham - I had heard the 42 million for the 7X was chump change!!!!


From above link: re; Markham Airport

Determining ownership of airport no easy task

While residents living near the Markham Airport heard rumours the operation was owned by the wealthy Thomson family, no one was able to confirm it.

Finding out the ownership structure of the airport lands is difficult.

The property’s title is registered to 674305 Ontario Ltd., a search of deeds shows.

A search of corporate records shows the numbered company, soon after incorporation in 1986, changed its name to Markham Airport Inc.

The company’s current president and one of its directors, since 1988, is Patrick M. Phillips, records show. Its other director is William T. Dodds, since 1995.

Both of their addresses are listed as Suite 2400, 65 Queen St. West, Toronto. That’s the Thomson Building.

The suite is the headquarters of the Woodbridge Company Ltd., the Thomson family’s investment company and Thomvest, a technology venture investor.

Bill Dodds is vice-president of Woodbridge and Thomvest