Gee Bee Racer

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Gee Bee Racer

Post by 1000 HP »

Looking for plans to build a full scale Gee Bee Racer. Anybody out there know where to get them? I've called the guy in Idaho and get a machine (for 2 years now). I'm guessing he hasn't got them... :rolleyes:
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Re: Gee Bee Racer

Post by Hedley »

You need to track down Delmar Benjamin. He is likely forgotten now,
but back in the 90's he flew the first GeeBee replica for quite some
time on the airshow circuit.

The building of it was an enormous undertaking, and it almost killed
him the first time he flew it. There was an article in EAA Sport Aviation
perhaps 20 years ago about this - probably worth reading.

I'm not sure you really know what you're getting into. I hope you have
very deep pockets, lots of patience and are an incredibly hot stick.
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Re: Gee Bee Racer

Post by . ._ »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gee_Bee_Model_R

I'd imagine things could go squirrley pretty fast in a tail dragger with a 90mph stall speed. :shock:
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Re: Gee Bee Racer

Post by HS-748 2A »

Delmar did some incredible aerobatics with that thing.

I saw it once in the flesh. It passed through my hometown en route to an airshow in Alaska.

As I understand, Delmar's Gee Bee is the only ever built which didn't (has not yet) suffered a fatal crash.

'48
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Re: Gee Bee Racer

Post by X Driver »

I believe if you could track down Steve Wolfe, he had something to do with the building of the Gee Bee.
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Re: Gee Bee Racer

Post by Driving Rain »

I was fortunate to see Delmar Benjamin put on an incredible aerobatic show in his Gee Bee at the Reno Air Races a number of years ago. He even race Nemesis around the pylons, At the time Nemesis was the dominate force in the Formula 1 class, by the third lap Nemesis had already lapped the Gee Bee.
If your really serious about building one Delmar is the man to talk to. I believe he lives in Idaho and is still crop dusting.
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Re: Gee Bee Racer

Post by iflyforpie »

A flying Gee Bee, really? I thought they would have been illegal due to the high wing loading and lack of stability--even for experimental... :shock:

If it was me, I'd start with something 'simple' and 'easy to fly' like a Cassutt... :D
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Re: Gee Bee Racer

Post by dollareightyfife »

Another Gee Bee source
http://www.jimkimballenterprises.com/web/index.php

They produced a Model Z that now lives in the Fastasy of Flight Museum in Florida. I think Delmar Benjamin was involved in the test flying of this particular replica as well as museum founder/owner Kermit Weeks.

There was also a Model Z replica produced-with longer wings and fuselage in an attempt to make it easier to fly-for the Disney movie, "The Rocketeer." It to now lives in a museum-Boeing Museum of Flight in Seattle
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Re: Gee Bee Racer

Post by Inverted2 »

Would you really want to fly one of these? :shock:

I did see it at the CNE airshow about 10 years ago and it put on one hell of a show. I think he (wisely) stopped flying it and its in a museum now......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwqYh995YhU
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Re: Gee Bee Racer

Post by lownslow »

Have you had a look at some of the other Gee Bees that had been built? Yeah, the R-1 is a terrifying looking beast of a racer but take a look at something like the Gee Bee model X, Y, D and E. They have a lot of the same character (maybe even more) in a little more sedate handling package. If you don't care about the way the propeller turns you could power a D or X replica with a Gypsy Major or Walter Mikron inline engine as you'd likely never find a Menasco Pirate with enough spares to keep it going. A Rotec radial would be right at home in an E model if you like new things.

This is a good read on the history of the Granville's racers and shows that in spite of the odd appearance of their planes they didn't just stick a bunch of parts together and hope it would fly
http://www.airracinghistory.freeola.com ... ee%20Z.htm

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Re: Gee Bee Racer

Post by 1000 HP »

Thanks for the replies. Keep 'em coming. I don't think I'm "an incredibly hot stick" but I'm going to fly the beastie anyways. I've got a chart of all the GeeBees ever made, and I just happen to like it. And yes, I've been to the Seattle museum of Flight and seen the Gee Bee there and watched the movie. If you think just because I'm an older guy, I need a "sedate" airplane, hahaha :lol: Just look at Stearny. Those who know the old guy admire him. At 92 he lives on a lake for 5 months of the year, canoes all over the place with his lovely wife, and just this year brought up his own seaplane. I'm guessing he's not ready to roll over and quit hmmmm....
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Re: Gee Bee Racer

Post by SeawingsUAE »

A flying Gee Bee, really? I thought they would have been illegal due to the high wing loading and lack of stability--even for experimental...
why should it be Illegal? while the Gee Bee was a relatively blind aircraft its wing loading was about half of a standard weight P51 Mustang, should they be "Illegal" as well?
The reason for the crashes associated with the small number of original Gee Bees was mainly the times they flew in. The pilots of the day were trained on and flew relatively benign aircraft, Waco, Travel Airs, Jennys and Cubs, add short grass strips, and it is easy to see why the Gee Bee was considered such a lethal machine.
Take a low time pilot, give him 50 hours in a Fleet Canuck or J3 Cub, then stick him straight into a single seat 180hp Pitts, if he survives the flight, he will at best tell everyone that the Pitts is incredibly hard to fly. Yet to anyone with adequate training, the Pitts is a very flyable and enjoyable aircraft.
I understand that the Gee Bee, due its relatively high wing loading, lack of dihedral, aft CG, and high gear to weight placement was significantly more work than a Pitts on Take off and landing, but in the air it was just another aircraft.
fast fwd to 1992, Steve Wolf built the Gee Bee, Delmar who had a background of many hours in Pitts, and low level aerobatics had no problem flying the Gee Bee. In fact he flew it over 1000 hours before selling it to Kermit Weeks in Florida, (it has not flown since delivery)
Yes he did have an issue with aileron reversal on one of his first flights, because he tried to get the tail down at too high a speed on landing, he was able to recover with a scraped wing tip, and thereafter never again tried to three point the aircraft. He did say to lose the brakes would be to lose the airplane. It is fair to say that except for the overweight takeoff incident, all Gee Bees were lost on landing, and it was probably due exactly what Delmar discovered.
So Delmar proved that while it is a no compromise racer which demands full respect at all times, it could easily be flown by a properly trained pilot with the right background and mentality. He never relaxed while flying it, and he was fully aware that it could bite, but he flew it 950 hours more than any other Gee Bee pilot in history. It was designed for one purpose, to go fast, it did exactly what it was designed to do.
By the way, Delmar is now fully retired from airshows, and runs a solar window company in Denver CO.
As mentioned, it might be a better idea to look at another airplane to build, I would not think a Gee Bee would be a fun aircraft to own and fly. Nor is it a matter of simply “getting a set of plans” To build a golden age racer takes dedication and passion, lots of research, a thorough knowledge of building, and plenty of money. Its not like building an RV 6 kit. Steve Wolf, (no longer in Idaho, that was 15 years ago, nor Cresswell Oregon, that was 6 years ago, now in Apopka FL) would no doubt build another, but it would cost a great deal of cash, you would get no change from ½ a million US.
There are a number of Golden age racers currently being built, a Laird Super Solution, 2 Mystery ships, a Gee Bee QED in WA, a Gee Bee R1 in Indiana, a Gee Bee R2 in WA, a Hall Racer, a Mr Mulligan, 2 Wedell Williams, but all are being built by highly qualified and dedicated people. It is a small but very motivated group of people, and all are in contact with each other. Except for engines, and instruments, there are no prefabricated parts available, all are built from raw materials. There are also no detailed instruction manuals, these aircraft are built from photos, three views, measurements of existing aircraft, and plenty of detective work.
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Re: Gee Bee Racer

Post by X Driver »

Well said Pete. I guess an S1 Pitts is pretty good prep for just about anything.
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Re: Gee Bee Racer

Post by Strega »

I met Delamar in the late 90s and all I can say is WOW..

His plane was perfect, his flying was perfect, and it was almost like going back in time watching him fly!


My hats off to anyone that would want to build/fly one of them...

(for the record, I think youd have to be nuts to fly it ,but thats just me )
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Re: Gee Bee Racer

Post by lownslow »

Build a QED, then you can scare a friend!

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Re: Gee Bee Racer

Post by HS-748 2A »

SeawingsUAE wrote:It is fair to say that except for the overweight takeoff incident, all Gee Bees were lost on landing
Not True.

Following the Thompson Trophy race, the Gee Bee Z was re-engined with a larger, 750-horsepower (560 kW) Wasp Senior radial, in preparation for an attempt at establishing another world speed record at Wayne County Airport in Detroit, Michigan.[1] Unofficially clocked at 314 miles per hour (505 km/h) in early trials, the record attempt on December 5, 1931, would end in tragedy, the aircraft suffering a wing failure and rolling into the ground, killing Bayles.[2]

Analysis of the crash, based on motion picture film of the event examined frame-by-frame, showed that the aircraft's fuel cap had come loose and crashed through the Gee Bee Z's windscreen. It struck the pilot and incapacitated him, causing a sudden upset in pitch that led to the structural failure of the wing.[4] In addition, tests of a reproduction aircraft have shown that the Gee Bee Z was susceptible to aerodynamic flutter at high speed.[1]


From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gee_Bee_Model_Z

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Re: Gee Bee Racer

Post by SeawingsUAE »

48,
Your right. I was referring to accidents involving the R1, R2, as I thought that was the variant he was keen on,
But if it is accidents regards all the Gee Bees, well a Y was lost due fabric departing the wing, the QED in a river on take off due a rag in the intake, the Z as you say due flutter, The R1/R2 hybrid due aft CG on take off, addition of an extra fuel tank.
Over the years the Gee Bee has become a much maligned aircraft, but look at it for what it was, an all out no compromise racer. For its intended purpose, it excelled. With 80 years of hindsight on our side, we can see its limitations, but for the time it was one hell of an achievement.
If you choose to qoute “wikipedia” as your main Gee Bee source, here is another quote:
The Springfield Union of September 6, 1932 quoted Doolittle as saying, "She is the sweetest ship I've ever flown. She is perfect in every respect and the motor is just as good as it was a week ago. It never missed a beat and has lots of stuff in it yet. I think this proves that the Granville brothers up in Springfield build the very best speed ships in America today."
Anyway, he has to build it before any of this becomes an issue.
Here is a shot of an R1 underway, as of last year. The builder estimates about another 5 years to go, and its been 5 so far. Steve and Delmar, built his R2 in 1 year, working full time, with 2 additional employees. I know of another R1, so far its been 7 years, its on the gear, no wings. The QED underway is close, the engine went on last month, and it should be ready to go by early next year, its been a 5 year project to date, with at least 5 people working on it pretty much full time.
I would never discourage anyone who is keen to build a racer, but they would need to really ask themselves why. Once completed they are not enjoyable Sunday afternoon aircraft. A flight in most of the serious racers would be a mission. Most completed Thompson and Cleveland Golden age racers get very little time put on them, and most builders will tell you they built them as an exercise in building, and a love for the era, and its aircraft.
I am building a laird Super Solution, it took me 2 years of research to get enough info together to start cutting metal and wood. I have managed to source about 90 percent of what I need in the way of photos, measurements, drawings, and the material has come from individuals, museums, archives, books, etc. There are no plans, and pretty basic dimensions available. The original instruments have taken over 3 years so far to source, and I do not have them all. The ground adjustable HS prop was sourced in pieces, the hub one place, a blade here, a blade there, this is some pretty rare stuff. I have built a few airplanes, and building this airplane is far more complex than any of my previous projects.
As they say though, it’s the journey, not the destination.
Right you are Terry, the Pitts is such a great leveler, I always enjoy them, S1, S2, they are all great fun., and certainly they are a fantastic primer for almost any golden age machine.
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Re: Gee Bee Racer

Post by HS-748 2A »

Seawings, I wouldn't discourage anybody either. I'm always impressed with anybody with the kahoonahs to see something like that through. Keep us posted on your Laird.

'48
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Re: Gee Bee Racer

Post by Hedley »

I think you'd have to be nuts to fly it
Well, I guess that makes sense, then because people say I'm nuts, and I'd fly one :wink:

Free advice, worth what you paid me for it: get 1,000 hours of "interesting" tailwheel time (eg Pitts, Stearman, Harvard, P-51, etc) before you try to solo a Gee Bee.
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Re: Gee Bee Racer

Post by cgzro »

Whats this buisness of aileron reversal in the 3 point? Anybody care to elaborate.

There is something that looks somewhat similar being rebuilt in Oshawa at Corporate Aircraft (for display only I think). It has landing gear on it that look like they belong on a tank!
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