Formation Flying

[Spinner]

I did just copy this off the CADOR's. I am not sure about formation flying but this
seems a little wrong?


Navigation error

Aircraft InformationFlight #:
Aircraft Category: Aeroplane Country of Registration: CANADA
Aircraft Make: CESSNA Aircraft Model: 152
Year Built: 1981 Amateur Built: NO
Engine Make: AVCO LYCOMING Engine Model: O-235-L2C
Engine Type: Reciprocating Gear Type: Land
Phase Of Flight: Cruise Damage: No Damage
Owner: PRINCIPAL AIR LTD Operator: PRINCIPAL AIR LTD. (11868)
Operator Type: Commercial

Flight #:
Aircraft Category: Aeroplane Country of Registration: CANADA
Aircraft Make: GLOBE Aircraft Model: GC 1B
Year Built: 1948 Amateur Built: NO
Engine Make: AVCO LYCOMING Engine Model: IO-360-A1B
Engine Type: Reciprocating Gear Type: Land
Phase Of Flight: Approach Damage: No Damage
Owner: Private Operator:
Operator Type: Private

Flight #:
Aircraft Category: Aeroplane Country of Registration: CANADA
Aircraft Make: VANS Aircraft Model: RV6
Year Built: 1996 Amateur Built: YES
Engine Make: AVCO LYCOMING Engine Model: O-320-E2D
Engine Type: Reciprocating Gear Type: Land
Phase Of Flight: Approach Damage: No Damage
Owner: Private Operator:
Operator Type: Private

Flight #:
Aircraft Category: Aeroplane Country of Registration: CANADA
Aircraft Make: VANS Aircraft Model: RV6
Year Built: 2002 Amateur Built: YES
Engine Make: AVCO LYCOMING Engine Model: O-320-E2D
Engine Type: Reciprocating Gear Type: Land
Phase Of Flight: Approach Damage: No Damage
Owner: Private Operator:
Operator Type: Private

Flight #:
Aircraft Category: Aeroplane Country of Registration: CANADA
Aircraft Make: VANS Aircraft Model: RV7A
Year Built: 2007 Amateur Built: YES
Engine Make: AVCO LYCOMING Engine Model: O-360-A2A
Engine Type: Reciprocating Gear Type: Land
Phase Of Flight: Approach Damage: No Damage
Owner: Private Operator:
Operator Type: Private

Flight #:
Aircraft Category: Aeroplane Country of Registration: CANADA
Aircraft Make: VANS Aircraft Model: RV4
Year Built: 2003 Amateur Built: YES
Engine Make: AVCO LYCOMING Engine Model: O-360-A1A
Engine Type: Reciprocating Gear Type: Land
Phase Of Flight: Approach Damage: No Damage
Owner: Private Operator:
Operator Type: Private

Flight #:
Aircraft Category: Aeroplane Country of Registration: CANADA
Aircraft Make: HARMON Aircraft Model: ROCKET II
Year Built: 2002 Amateur Built: YES
Engine Make: AVCO LYCOMING Engine Model: IO-540-C4B5
Engine Type: Reciprocating Gear Type: Land
Phase Of Flight: Approach Damage: No Damage
Owner: Private Operator:
Operator Type: Private

Detail InformationUser Name: Samson, Donna
Date: 2010/11/03
Further Action Required: YES
O.P.I.: General Aviation
Narrative: The Instructor of the Principal Air Cessna 152 (C-GMGF), VFR Chilliwack (CYCW) to CYCW, was flying with his student at CYCW, an ATF aerodrome, at approximately 12:30 Local PST. The C152 was joining early downwind when 2 groups of 3 aircraft, consisting of privately-registered Globe GC18, 2 Vans RV6, Vans RV7A, Vans RV4, and a Harmon Rocket II, flying in formation crossed midfield announcing they were landing. The six aircraft flew an abnormally large circuit, forcing the C152 4 miles from the airport on their downwind. The C152 was cut off on final when 2 of the 6 aircraft ahead did not land, but instead did a right break into a 360 turn to bring them back on final at 500 feet without appropriate radio call of their intentions. When queried, their response was that formation flights have the right of way and the group continued to cut the C152 off at 500', With a solo student, the anticipated result would have been a near miss. The Company's Chief Flight Instructor did request they follow published procedures at the airport when other traffic is in the circuit. The lead Globe GC18 aircraft advised that formation flights have right of way and students were to stay out of their way.

[. ._]

The only things I could find in the CARs about this was section 602.19 and 602.24.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/r ... 2-2436.htm

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't think the formation had the right of way.

[Bushav8er]

The lead Globe GC18 aircraft advised that formation flights have right of way and students were to stay out of their way.

Time for retraining.

Right of Way rules apply and Formation flights don't get 'special' privileges -

Your CARs reference is correct.
Also for thought, CAR 602.96 and on for 'Operations at or in the Vicinity of an Aerodrome' and possibly 603 'Special Flight Operations'. And let's not forget 602.01 - Reckless Operation.

Once they were aware of another aircraft in the circuit they should have broken up and joined the circuit normally, making appropriate calls.

[Old Dog Flying]

This is at least the 4th version of this incident and from the first version, the instructor was telling the formation that he was a "commercial" flight and he had priority...so..in any event formations do not have priority any more than any other normal operation.

I got thee shortly after the incident but was unaware that there was a dust-up until later.

[SAR_YQQ]

Sounds like a bunch of numpties making stuff up as they fly.

One does a straight in and the other two in formation carry out an over-head break to landing? These types of flights are a nightmare.

I think I might have encounter a two-ship of these same aviators out of Tofino. They took off VFR and could barely communicate their position and intentions to the Nanaimo Radio RCO. When told that I was on an IFR approach and was procedure turn inbound to the NDB, they proceeded to fly right over the NDB at procedure turn altitude. The only reason I make the connection is that they too were a formation flight of RV's.

[Heliian]

Holy shit, what a bunch of assholes. Another nail in the airman/woman/personship coffin. I hope someone who deserved it got a knuckle sandwich.

D-bags

[sidestick stirrer]

Oh my, how we jump to conclusions.
As one who was witness to this air-rage incident, I can tell you that-other than the aircraft being in the air at the same time-the description is totally bogus.
Perhaps one should do a CADORS search for the reporting party before so quickly picking up bricks...

[Bushav8er]

Oh my, how we jump to conclusions.
As one who was witness to this air-rage incident, I can tell you that-other than the aircraft being in the air at the same time-the description is totally bogus.
Perhaps one should do a CADORS search for the reporting party before so quickly picking up bricks...

Not familiar with the incident, just wondering, what do you mean? It is an actual CADORs Are you referring to the 'Reported by' as the 'issue'? Further action is required so something will result one way or the other.

[AirFrame]

As someone who was witness to this event as a member of the formation, I will point out that the CADORS report as written does not reflect accurately the events that transpired. I'll leave it at that, the formation leads have talked to Transport directly and I expect the CADORS report will be updated this week with "the other side of the story." If it's not, i'd be happy to post a summary.

In short, there were no close calls in the air, and nobody cut anyone off. The instructor in the 150 just got his panties in a bunch because someone else joined "his" circuit.

And I believe the "formations have right-of-way" quote was a mis-quote taken out of context... The formation was ahead of the 150 in the circuit (the formation crossed mid-field as the 150 was doing a touch-and-go). So in this case the formation "had the right of way" but that was only due to it's position in the circuit, not because it was a formation.

[into the blue]

Since I started flying in the Lower Mainland, I always wondered why Chilliwack doesn't have an FSS or, at least, a CARS. I don't have any numbers at hand, but from experience it seems that CYCW has way more movements per day than, say, Nanaimo or Cambell River, which do enjoy the benefits of a ground station. After a few pretty much mandatory trips to Chilliwack during my PPL and CPL training, I gave myself a promise to never fly there unless I had an emergency. If one was to sit at the airport watching the traffic all day with a handheld radio and writing down every CARs infraction, then he would probably need a wheel barrow to carry that log around. What's the matter? Is it the pie rush, or what?

[Old Dog Flying]

Talked to one of the participants and the whole thing was a overblown bit of "Air Rage" on the part of the instructor. I sure as hell would not want him teaching my kid!

[ogc]

I can see how alot of that would be overblown, but is the part about the 2 aircraft doing a 360 to come in final again not true?

[mmartin1872]

Chilliwack, was pretty damn busy today... I was listening to the radio while i was in the hangar, doing some work.. There was a lot going on, a group of seagulls, set up shop on the runway, a clipper, tried to land, but did a pass over, because the birds wouldn't move, another airplane took off, finished off a bird, and then the birds didn't come back.

I've heard issues with the instructors at this airport... lady gets on the radio 'there is an airplane taking off in the circuit, and they aren't communicating with me, student pilot stay clear of the circuit'... no need for radio communication there, and the aircraft was following the rules.. This school thinks they run the airport, and they don't.

As much as i hate to say it, i do agree that chilliwack should have some sort of radio procedures required. it is just way too busy because it is one of the only 'local places' left that don't have a tower. I also think that a lot of people who use chilliwack, should be taking some 'radio training' courses, and learn not to have conversations about where they are going to eat/drink coffee, when the circuit is so, busy.

And if they don't get radio procedures, maybe the frenchman, needs to sell his old ftu, to somebody, to try and reign in the other school. I'm sure he could use the money anyways, lol

oh the drama of the small airport. Gotta love it.

[AirFrame]

I can see how alot of that would be overblown, but is the part about the 2 aircraft doing a 360 to come in final again not true?

I'll wait for the updated CADORS before addressing the incident in question. But I'll give some general Formation info as background:

Standard landing procedure for a formation is to perform a break. The formation flies the circuit until they turn final. As the aircraft reach the numbers on the runway, each aircraft separates one at a time from the formation and performs either a level 180 degree turn at circuit altitude (an overhead break) or a climbing 180 degree turn from a low approach (a battle break, or airshow break).

The purpose is to expedite the formation's entry into the circuit by arriving as a close formation, and then to efficiently create safe spacing for landing with minimal disruption to the circuit. The turn is done at 2g, which slows the aircraft down to flap or gear extend speed. When the aircraft roll out at the 180 degree point, the aircraft is ready for full flap, gear down, and a racetrack turn to the numbers.

Note that the 360 degree turn (or 180 plus 180) is done entirely inside the normal circuit pattern... It sounds more complicated than it is, really. All of the planes go from the break to all aircraft being on the ground in the time it takes most planes to get from midfield downwind to established on final.

[Finnegan]

Anyone notice how much less it takes these days for everyone to get all poopy-pants?

[polar one]

If, and I emhpasize, if, this is a case of an instructor getting all bent out of shape, I hope the good folks at Tc will tear him a new....attitude. And maybe have a talk with the CFI at the FTU.

[human garbage]

I can't help but think this is the same group that got YNJ all pissed off in the CADORs for formation flying there a while back. Sounds very similar...

YCW is scary enough as a single a/c with all the traffic and no ATC. Why anyone would want to take a formation in there is beyond me.... Like asking for trouble. Lucky they didn't get smoked by a NORDO aircraft as its almost happened to me there twice. Not a great choice of venue for break this, break that. How the hell would anyone predict what was going to happen without knowing all about formation flying?

What is the fascination with formation flying anyhow? I've done it a few time and found it underwhelming to say the least. F_cking ghey unless you are practicing for an airshow IMHO...

[polar one]

Why would people want to go there?
First of all, there is the Pie. mmmmmmmmmmm Pie
Then there is the flying club. Active, good people.
And it not yet in the mountains, so to speak.
Did I mention the pie? And a restaurant that opens early on the weekends.
How many of the local airports have a great restaurant with pie? Good people, fuel etc.


As to all the formation flying and stuff. Who knows.

[Strega]

Lucky they didn't get smoked by a NORDO aircraft as its almost happened to me there twice

Just a hint for you, when flying into an uncontrolled airport USE YOUR EYES!!!!!!

What is the fascination with formation flying anyhow? I've done it a few time and found it underwhelming to say the least. F_cking ghey unless you are practicing for an airshow IMHO...

The point of formation flying is "precision" flying....... This is something most "pilots" these days know nothing about....

S

[AirFrame]

"...flying airplanes is really not all that difficult so it attracts some of the most mentally challenged people in society."

A user named "human garbage" might want to avoid snide comments with that as his signature.

What is the fascination with formation flying anyhow? I've done it a few time and found it underwhelming to say the least. F_cking ghey unless you are practicing for an airshow IMHO...

Well, the reality in this case is that we were practising, for Remembrance Day, when we perform a flypast to honour the memory of pilots who gave their lives in wars gone by.