"There's no such thing a a little ice"

[swordfish]

DASH-8, and they wish to follow the clean aircraft concept to the letter. They land in B.F.N. with an unexpected trace amount of ice on the very front of the leading edge, and no tools available to clean it off. What do they do then? Wait? What if there is nowhere warm to wait, and it's not going to melt on its own until several months later? What do they do when the company is pressuring them to go?

Nothing here is gospel, absolute, concrete, scientific, or in any other way, defining, or a basis of decision making.

It's a discussion to encourage pilots to think about what they're taught in academics training rooms, then take that out into the real world, where a lot of the things they are taught must be applied as guidelines, or cannot be applied at all. The concept that There's no such thing as a little ice, or even the When In Doubt theory (i.e. you first have to find there IS doubt, then ponder the ramifications) is drilled into us year after year so that non-thinking automatons will conclude a plane cannot fly with a little ice on it - and will subsequently fall out of the sky, crash, and everyone will be killed - is what they are aiming for.

I encourage you to consider what the statement means, then try to rationalize that in a real-world situation.

I am "living" testament that there IS such a thing as a little ice. But where the boundary is between a little and a more than a little cannot be defined scientifically.

i.e. there are no concrete non-self-incriminating answers to your questions.

[Doc]

Next question is, let's say we have a new Captain flying up north in say, a DASH-8, and they wish to follow the clean aircraft concept to the letter. They land in B.F.N. with an unexpected trace amount of ice on the very front of the leading edge, and no tools available to clean it off. What do they do then? Wait? What if there is nowhere warm to wait, and it's not going to melt on its own until several months later? What do they do when the company is pressuring them to go?

My general feeling is - it's time to put in a call to your CP, that's a large part of what he's there for - and honestly - if you think he's gonna be part of 'the company pressuring them to go' when you have doubts, he's probably not someone you want to be working for. The CP should be available to lend advice, a hand, or back up to any pilot in his crew - not just the new ones - when they're not sure, have doubts, are in a bind.

With all due respect. The CP isn't there. He's not the one who'll get violated if someone in the "know" calls our young Captain on it. Here is where some knowledge, and common sense has to kick in. By the time someone is a Captain on a Dash, hopefully he'll be able to accurately determine whether or not the leading ice is, or will be a factor.(Hell, you flew it with that leading edge ice. You flew an approach, a landing. How did it handle? Any problems?) As described, the ice would not be a factor. On the bright side, if he's in the far north, the ice won't be visible to the FSS unit. If he were a smart lad, he will have parked on an angle to make the "ice" invisible from the buildings? As described, I'd just get in 'er and go.

[xsbank]

Hi Doc!

There is a nice presentation on icing on the Bombardier website, I'll see if I can find it. I posted it here before but maybe some here might like a refresher.

http://www.batraining.com/eLearning/Fre ... efault.asp

[OceansEdge]

Next question is, let's say we have a new Captain flying up north in say, a DASH-8, and they wish to follow the clean aircraft concept to the letter. They land in B.F.N. with an unexpected trace amount of ice on the very front of the leading edge, and no tools available to clean it off. What do they do then? Wait? What if there is nowhere warm to wait, and it's not going to melt on its own until several months later? What do they do when the company is pressuring them to go?

My general feeling is - it's time to put in a call to your CP, that's a large part of what he's there for - and honestly - if you think he's gonna be part of 'the company pressuring them to go' when you have doubts, he's probably not someone you want to be working for. The CP should be available to lend advice, a hand, or back up to any pilot in his crew - not just the new ones - when they're not sure, have doubts, are in a bind.

With all due respect. The CP isn't there. He's not the one who'll get violated if someone in the "know" calls our young Captain on it. Here is where some knowledge, and common sense has to kick in. By the time someone is a Captain on a Dash, hopefully he'll be able to accurately determine whether or not the leading ice is, or will be a factor.(Hell, you flew it with that leading edge ice. You flew an approach, a landing. How did it handle? Any problems?) As described, the ice would not be a factor. On the bright side, if he's in the far north, the ice won't be visible to the FSS unit. If he were a smart lad, he will have parked on an angle to make the "ice" invisible from the buildings? As described, I'd just get in 'er and go.

Just suggesting that for the new Captain in the scenario as presented - guy who isn't sure - CP is probably the person you want holding your hand and walking you through it. You're right - he should have the good sense and experience by the time he gets that stripe, and chances are he does, but I've seen situations where a Captain on his first flight in the big left chair was faced with some challenging decisions to make. I hope as his Dispatcher I helped him make good ones (would seem so as he's chief pilot now *grins*), but anyone in that position can, and in some cases I hope, would have some niggling doubts - sometimes it just takes having your suspicions, concerns, conclusions reaffirmed - CP would be the guy to do that. And any CP worth his salt knows all of the above - and is gonna reaffirm that too - it's part of the leadership roll. It's what I would expect from my superiors.

[Doc]

Just suggesting that for the new Captain in the scenario as presented - guy who isn't sure - CP is probably the person you want holding your hand and walking you through it. You're right - he should have the good sense and experience by the time he gets that stripe, and chances are he does, but I've seen situations where a Captain on his first flight in the big left chair was faced with some challenging decisions to make. I hope as his Dispatcher I helped him make good ones (would seem so as he's chief pilot now *grins*), but anyone in that position can, and in some cases I hope, would have some niggling doubts - sometimes it just takes having your suspicions, concerns, conclusions reaffirmed - CP would be the guy to do that. And any CP worth his salt knows all of the above - and is gonna reaffirm that too - it's part of the leadership roll. It's what I would expect from my superiors.

What would you suggest his CP uses to base HIS decision on? I fail to see how a dispatcher would be of any help. By the time a guy is in the "big left chair" ( try to be a little less condescending in the future, Okay?) he shouldn't need anybody "holding his hand" (unless things have really gone for a crap in the last few years?) or he shouldn't be in the "big left chair" in the first place. Sometimes decisions have to made by the PIC. You do know, that it is HIS call, do you not? I'd be interested in knowing what decisions, you as a dispatcher, have helped these captains make? I'll make my own decisions, thank you. After discussing the situations with other CREW members, of course.
In an airplane the size of a DASH, there is quite a lengthy period of line indoc before a captain is "on his own", hopefully with a little common sense as to his first journeys. And, during his first few trips, he is hopefully paired with a very experienced FO. Unless of course, things have changed?

[OceansEdge]

What would you suggest his CP uses to base HIS decision on? I fail to see how a dispatcher would be of any help. By the time a guy is in the "big left chair" ( try to be a little less condescending in the future, Okay?) he shouldn't need anybody "holding his hand" (unless things have really gone for a crap in the last few years?) or he shouldn't be in the "big left chair" in the first place. Sometimes decisions have to made by the PIC. You do know, that it is HIS call, do you not? I'd be interested in knowing what decisions, you as a dispatcher, have helped these captains make? I'll make my own decisions, thank you. After discussing the situations with other CREW members, of course.
In an airplane the size of a DASH, there is quite a lengthy period of line indoc before a captain is "on his own", hopefully with a little common sense as to his first journeys. And, during his first few trips, he is hopefully paired with a very experienced FO. Unless of course, things have changed?

I'm sorry - there was no condescension meant. Really.

I'm not anywhere stating, implying, or advocating - that the decision is anyone else's but his. I do find it interesting that you'll make your decision after discussing it with other crew members but not your dispatcher? As for what decisions I've helped others to make - 1000's - that's the whole concept and precipe behind co-authority. Over the years I've seen a lot of times when a captain - new or experienced - has wanted to hash over a situation - whether icing, weather, mechanical, or otherwise with someone who's experience and knowledge he trusts. Yes, the decision is HIS alone at that juncture, but that doesn't preclude him seeking out a knowledgeable 2nd opinion - whether it's his FO his CP or me. I'm sorry if my suggesting that has put your nose out of joint.

[jjj]

Doc - you beat me to it!

"Political Ice," is a term I have been using for years.

My little 737 can do a single-engine go-around in icing at max landing weight. My little '37 is also without any anti-ice/de-ice capability on the out board slats, leading edge flaps, and the whole of my tail.

Yet this morning I took over a plane with about an 1/8th of an inch of clear ice on the outboard leading edges and couldn't see so much as a trace on the tail. De-iced we did, not because it was safer, but only because you never know who's looking.

JJJ

[Brown Bear]

I'm sorry - there was no condescension meant. Really.

I'm not anywhere stating, implying, or advocating - that the decision is anyone else's but his. I do find it interesting that you'll make your decision after discussing it with other crew members but not your dispatcher? As for what decisions I've helped others to make - 1000's - that's the whole concept and precipe behind co-authority. Over the years I've seen a lot of times when a captain - new or experienced - has wanted to hash over a situation - whether icing, weather, mechanical, or otherwise with someone who's experience and knowledge he trusts. Yes, the decision is HIS alone at that juncture, but that doesn't preclude him seeking out a knowledgeable 2nd opinion - whether it's his FO his CP or me. I'm sorry if my suggesting that has put your nose out of joint.

I don't think a pilot is going to call a dispatcher over the question of whether or not he should launch with a trace of ice on the leading edges. Are you really expecting to asked for your opinion on that? I doubt very much his nose is in any way, out of joint. Seems yours is though? Let us in on where you work, or at least what kind of equipment you dispatch. In what part of the world? Seriously, in the scenario mentioned, how would the dispatcher have the experience, or knowledge to offer an informed opinion.

[square]

LOL, there is no airport so far north that it can't be fitted with a LADDER and BROOM! The only reason they're absent is an absence of common sense and balls on your own part. A pilot so timid that he can't ask for that equipment, AND a pressure bottle of de-ice fluid ought to go back down south. I know it takes some muscle to de-ice with a broom but if you're shying away from that you could use the workout anyway.

[square]

but if you just do happen to one day misjudge how much ice you have and bend some metal or hurt people, I hope you wont be one of those who feel that their guilty feelings should be punishment enough. You ignore the rules. You had better be able to take ownership of the consequences.

It is what the new pilots on this forum want to hear..That with experience you an ignore the regulations and are someone blessed with the ability to masterfully judge the amount of ice that is critical to not flying.....

The concept that pilots develop "enough experience" to "ignore the regulations" is as esoteric as flying every trip with perfectly clean critical surfaces, or without sidestepping some regulation, protocol, procedure, COM or AFM requirement somewhere, sometime.

And after a pilot has 20,000 hours flying up North, he will definitely have explored the "no such thing as a little ice" definition for the type he's flying. You descend through a layer on approach to Armpit, NWT, and you find a schmear of glazed ice on the leading edge - not even a millimetre thick. Are you going to tap and scrape that away, and risk doing damage to the boots and the leading edge, or are you going to leave it alone, knowing that it has absolutely no effect on the aerodynamics of the wing? This is a rhetorical question, btw. i.e. it doesn't have an absolute answer.

PLUS...you will ultimately determine that you don't need to have 20,000 hours to decide if it's safe to fly a plane in a certain condition. You need common sense, close examination, "some" experience, discussion, and an analysis of the variables that affect your takeoff AND and analysis of what can go wrong. AND a takeoff plan that will manage those variables successfully.

Those of you who equate this discussion to the Dryden accident, the Potomac River accident, the SAS MD80 accident...ad nauseam... either haven't got it, are simply being argumentative, or don't fully understand ALL the factors involved in those accidents.

One more thing: (this is for those who think that the top surface of a tail of a T-tail aircraft is highly critical)

The tail of an aircraft actually "flies" upside down (for want of a simple understanding of what it does). i.e the lift it develops works in the opposite direction of the main wing. Where is the logic in going to great lengths and frustration to clean off the top of a tail, when it's the underside of the tail that really matters? Why do you think manufacturers have provided guidelines in AFM's to tolerate a certain amount of frost on the underside of the main wing resulting from cold-soaking by very cold fuel in the wings?

Answer: it has negligible effect on performance. Give that some thought to your "upside-down" tailplane.

Clap clap! We're all real impressed with what a bush hero you are, but what is the point of this?

Starting a thread to advocate take-off with iced-up surfaces on a public forum for aviation enthusiasts?

What the hell's wrong with you?

[Brown Bear]

LOL, there is no airport so far north that it can't be fitted with a LADDER and BROOM! The only reason they're absent is an absence of common sense and balls on your own part. A pilot so timid that he can't ask for that equipment, AND a pressure bottle of de-ice fluid ought to go back down south. I know it takes some muscle to de-ice with a broom but if you're shying away from that you could use the workout anyway.

Cute. Really cute. Spray cold windshield anti-freeze on a wing, also keeps up appearances when witnessed from the window of an FSS unit. I guess.
Falling off a ladder in the "far" north would be a brilliant answer, as well, I'm sure. On a Dash 8. You have looked up (look way up, Rusty) at the height of a DASH's tail? Nice icy ramp. POS ladder "liberated" from the MTO building. Can you say WCB? Knew ya could. No. Any airline with the wherewithal to be operating a DASH in the north had better get off their wallets and, either do it correctly, of go home. BTW, you left out the see-saw action of the rope. Saw through that pesky ice and snow....

[Brown Bear]

Blah blah blah. We're all real impressed with what a bush hero you are, but what is the point of this? Starting a thread to advocate take-off with iced-up surfaces on a public forum for aviation enthusiasts? What the hell's wrong with you?

square, where ARE you manners, dude?

[square]

I left them IRL dash-8's are two crew your little helper can hold the ladder. Seriously though this kind of influence on people is just trouble, the only ones who listen are those who don't know any better.

[Brown Bear]

I left them IRL dash-8's are two crew your little helper can hold the ladder. Seriously though this kind of influence on people is just trouble, the only ones who listen are those who don't know any better.

You have a point. Then we all get quoted. Square said...... Doc said......... XSbank said....... said.......

BTW, who goes up the ladder...and who's the little helper? I'm scared to death of heights!

[square]

Oh and type 1 is recommended to be heated to 60 degrees to make it more effective but it's not a limitation. It'll just take more when it's colder. The limiting factor is the OAT, it has a LOUT around -33.

[1sttimeposter]

The fact that this threat has three pages disgusts me. Ice degrades performance. The wing is designed to be clean. Do the right thing. Let common sense prevail.

[OceansEdge]

I don't think a pilot is going to call a dispatcher over the question of whether or not he should launch with a trace of ice on the leading edges. Are you really expecting to asked for your opinion on that? I doubt very much his nose is in any way, out of joint. Seems yours is though? Let us in on where you work, or at least what kind of equipment you dispatch. In what part of the world? Seriously, in the scenario mentioned, how would the dispatcher have the experience, or knowledge to offer an informed opinion.

Sorry you feel that way, honestly I wish more guys would actually use their dispatcher. Initially I answered the question as asked - and suggested that in the scenario as presented perhaps a call to the CP might be in order. As for calling dispatch - you're right in the strict parameters of the scenario, chances are I'm not going to have an opinion on whether or not the ice he's looking at is 'more than a little', or it's safe to go. However, in the more general terms of my last post there have certainly been times when I have had access to resources or information that from where he's at he doesn't have, or knowledge and experience to venture an opinion. For instance in a case like this I've woken up the garage manager of a competitor to go out to the barn and fire up their own packs to get a guy out of a bind. Chances are pretty good you really don't know what dispatch can or cannot do for you until you call and ask. There are guys who never do - who presume that dispatch is only there to get their coffee and their room keys and make sure they've got a ride (fortunately they're a rare and dying breed), and then there are guys who pick up the phone and call and say "here's the problem, anything you can do?"

I'm not saying dispatch is the be all to end all and can magically solve every problem - I'm saying we're a trained professional member of your crew and should be included in the 'what are we/can we do? discussion. Yes, I do get persnickety when guys suggest "a pilots is never going to call dispatch over...."

As for my experience - 10 years - regional Canadian airlines, desk, Training Dispatcher, ACD, Chief Dispatcher, in some particularly harsh environs - want a copy of my CV? There are guys on this site whom I've worked with over the years - want a reference?

Anyway - I had no intention of hijacking this thread to advocate for a better understanding of what dispatch can do for you - I only meant to answer the question as posed from the dispatch POV. I'll leave it go now.

[Pugster]

There's such a thing as a little ice - but as others have stated you have to get rid of it regardless. To suggest it's OK to blast off with a contaminated aircraft is suggesting something illegal and potentially dangerous.

As for calling dispatch...Lets say I wound up at an alternate that I don't normally go to, that didn't have a CDF...dispatch is going to be one of the first people I talk to. They are ultimately the ones who will be able to do the legwork to have somebody come out to deice the aircraft - and if we can't deice and are therefore stuck they're the ones who are going to have to deal with the fallout.

Dispatchers may not be in the aircraft, but they're members of the crew regardless...

[Brown Bear]

Well, it would seem we went from discussing a slight amount of ice (a trace, I believe) to an ad for how much we love and need our dispatchers. I'm sure they're all lovely people. The question was simple. Do you go with the aforementioned trace of ice? Or not?
It wasn't about, "who ya gonna call....ghost busters....."

[swordfish]

Square, you need to be able to read before you're able to listen.

As I've stated in a couple of posts in this thread, I started it to underscore the bullshit we're taught in ground training that cannot be carried to the real world or is designed to scare the shit out of mindless automatons who swallow most of this crap without a second thought...then go preaching from their lofty pulpit about how dangerous ANY ice is, and how "safe" it is to clean the plane down to the educated condition - without really understanding what "safe" means in this context.

The thread has described how impossible and impracticable that is in many Northern locations:

• There aren't resources such as ladders, brooms, spray bottles trucks, et al...except what you carry yourself!
  There is either no DI fluid, or it's too cold to be of ANY use whatsoever.
  Tall ladders are dangerous, and IMHO unnecessary to do the top of the tail if you only have traces of stuff there.

I didn't suggest, encourage, coerce, or in any other way advocate, people to take off with a load of ice on your plane. What I do encourage is clean your leading edges, and do the best you can with whatever resources you can lay hands on in difficult conditions, and make a plan to handle what you can't deal with mechanically.

Pilots have to become familiar with what their plane will do, progressively and with experience, discovering what marvelous abilities it has. Now don't hand me that jive about becoming a test pilot, blah blah blah. That is so fuckn tired.

We've ALL been test pilots at one time or another whenever you sidestep a regulation or limitation, fly over gross, accidentally exceed Vmo, take off from gravel where your plane hasn't been certified for it, take off without ASDA, and hundreds of other operational conditions where the plane DID in fact jump those hoops in its certification testing, but the aircraft was never licensed for those capabilities.

I could run down all the times and bizarre takeoffs I have done (or been shown as a copilot) with planes that - under today's standards - should never have become airborne, or when they did, should have fallen out of the sky. But what's the point?

My mission is not to flaunt my own experience, or to justify further absurd transgressions of what is NOW REGULATED. It is simply to advise you all that there IS such a thing as a little ice. And maybe stop preaching the fanatical & ridiculous extremes that we are taught in ground school.

Think about it...then get a grip, for God's sake.