Freezing rain anyone?

[Beefitarian]

Those parachutes that shoot out the top and let the plane float down must make it ok to go take a quick jaunt through it, yeah?

I'll just go ahead and be sad because of the mean things said to me while I'm waiting until they don't forcast freezing rain to fly home thanks.

[Hawkerflyer]

So, to all the geniuses above who would apparently fly in this, what do you do when you suddenly fly into an area of freezing rain

Close my eye's and hope for the best.

[Highflyinpilot]

What's funny is people defending the pilots decision BUT god forbid had he piled it into the trees the opinions would be totaly different, yep I can picture it now:

" Who in their right mind would takeoff with such reported conditions"

[Justjohn]

Two things. There was NO freezing rain and the aircraft was NOT in icing conditions. Enough said. Today there is icing conditions so maybe you should not go flying. Stay at home where you are warm and have another bowl of Captain Crunch. Please do feel free though to report back to us if you see or hear any other aircraft flying over your house today.

Um, are you a pilot? I hope not. It is illegal to fly into FORECAST icing if your plane isn't certified for it. Whether there is currently any icing on your (or anyone else's) airframe is completely irrelevant as far as the law (and common sense) is concerned.

Um, CpnCrunch, .... a PIREP of NO ICING supercedes a FORCAST. This IS as far as the Law is concerned. He could see that there was no precip before entering the area. He entered the area. No law broken. As far as common sense is concerned, well that depends on the particulars. But note that the Airplane was over snow covered terrain with SKIS. Maybe I wouldn't have chosen to fly (Actually, I just don't fly VFR anymore). But I sure wouldn't be so quick to condemn another pilot for choosing to. Chill out man.

[The Hammer]

Interesting comments. First of all, there was no actual freezing rain at that time, but there was definitely a high risk. He was flying underneath an overcast layer that was above freezing, and the temp on the ground was -5C. Also, both the environment Canada forecast for the town he was flying past, and the GFA, forecast a risk of freezing rain at the time. He couldn't have gotten a better weather briefing than this because it simply doesn't exist.

So, to all the geniuses above who would apparently fly in this, what do you do when you suddenly fly into an area of freezing rain and your wings stop doing what they were designed to do? Or do you have some magical ability to detect freezing rain that nobody else does?

As far as I can see it was just yet another dumb decision that certain pilots make all the time. Mostly they get away with it, which makes them keep doing it.

Oh, and if it's who I think it is, it's the local chisel charter operator

Also, it appears that it is illegal to fly in Canada if there is any icing forecast and your plane isn't equipped to deal with it (bearing in mind that no plane is certified to fly in freezing rain, never mind a 182):

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/p ... er-757.htm

The only exception is if "current weather reports or pilot reports indicate that icing conditions no longer exist."

Captain

You left out part 2 of this gentleman's letter. You know, the part with the retraction stating that this letter is only his OPINION and that Transport Canada doesn't agree with his view on the legality of operating in these forecast decisions

See below

Author’s note: Part 1 of the above article was published in the ASL 4/2009. It contained the following conclusion.

Takeoff into known freezing drizzle and/or light freezing rain is outside of the flight envelope for which any airplane currently operating today is certificated. Not only is it unwise to operate in such conditions, it is also unsafe, and based on the best information available at this time, also illegal.

Transport Canada (TC) has undertaken a review of the current practice of taking off in freezing precipitation to assess potential hazards and determine whether any regulatory or safety action is required. TC has not reached a final conclusion on this issue, but after reviewing current practices, it has identified important safety information to share in this ASL article and the previous one.

The article is intended to inform operators and flight crews of the potential hazards of taking off in conditions of freezing drizzle and light freezing rain. This article stresses the importance of understanding the hazards associated with operating in icing conditions and the limitations associated with the certification of airplanes for flight into known icing conditions.

At this time, TC has not drawn any firm conclusions on the safety of taking off in freezing drizzle or light freezing rain. However, TC is of the opinion that taking off in freezing drizzle and light or greater intensity freezing rain may be hazardous and, in the case of moderate or heavy freezing rain conditions, these fall outside the protection afforded by de-icing and anti-icing fluids. TC will consult the aviation industry to consider the effectiveness of current regulations and standards.

TC therefore retracts the last sentence of the conclusion and replaces it with a reiteration of the current guidance on this subject. Specifically, operation of an aircraft in conditions of freezing drizzle or freezing rain should be avoided whenever possible.



Here is the link to part 2 if you care to peruse: http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/p ... tm#takeoff

I was there the day that this occurred in CYWG (you probably were too Capn). The TC inspector watched 10-15 aircraft depart in these conditions (including Boeing, Airbus, and Bombardier jets from Canadian operators WJ, AC, JAZZ) and then tried to violated them for operating their aircraft in conditions for which their aircraft were not approved and were unsafe.

"WHAT KIND OF REGULATOR, WHOSE MANDATE IS TO ENSURE SAFE AIR TRAVEL FOR CANADIANS, ALLOWS MANY AIRCRAFT TO CONTINUE TO DEPART IN AN UNSAFE MANNER????? WHY WERE NO ACTIONS TAKEN TO HALT THIS IMMEDIATELY AND PREVENT IT FROM CONTINUING?

The chicken shit "notice of violation" in the mail wasn't going to improve the level safety for the passengers on the aircraft that departed once the inspector was aware of these unsafe conditions.

These "violations" were never followed up by TC (maybe because they didn't actually exist)

Capn Crunch
I apologize for side tracking your post (it has several valid points for guidance) but the link to that letter without including the additional note stating that Transport Canada doesn't support his opinions, was just too much to handle.

PS Transport Canada's latest HOLDOVER tables (2010/2011) now have a column for light freezing rain (-FZRA). Looks to me like better data from research is showing what is truly safe/ an acceptable risk.

[CpnCrunch]

Captain

You left out part 2 of this gentleman's letter. You know, the part with the retraction stating that this letter is only his OPINION and that Transport Canada doesn't agree with his view on the legality of operating in these forecast decisions

No I was referring to the CARs and not the discussion about taking off into freezing rain. Here it is:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/r ... htm#605_30

[CpnCrunch]

Um, CpnCrunch, .... a PIREP of NO ICING supercedes a FORCAST. This IS as far as the Law is concerned. He could see that there was no precip before entering the area. He entered the area. No law broken. As far as common sense is concerned, well that depends on the particulars. But note that the Airplane was over snow covered terrain with SKIS. Maybe I wouldn't have chosen to fly (Actually, I just don't fly VFR anymore). But I sure wouldn't be so quick to condemn another pilot for choosing to. Chill out man.

It seems doubtful that a pilot flying into the forecast icing conditions himself would constitute a 'pilot report' in this case. But hey, if you want to try arguing that with TC then be my guest.

But the big question is: is it safe? Whether or not you're likely to kill yourself is far more important that breaking the law. Skis or not, it just seems very dumb to be flying into an area with a freezing rain forecast, when conditions are ripe for all kinds of icing (not just freezing precip).

[RatherBeFlying]

If the OAT shows below 0C and I see rain ahead I'll go somewhere else.

It's really hard to get icing in clear air.

[lilfssister]

NavCanada forecasts tend to be heavy on the CYA side.

They are Environment Canada forecasts. Nav Canada does not have forecasters, just carry EC forecasts on the AWWS.

[railroad]

I find it interesting that in the fancy dance of being politically correct, people are proud to say they will never question another pilot's decision not to fly. But they will come flat out and say that a pilot's decision is wrong to go flying, whenever in their opinion, it is not a good day for flying.

Pilot's make the go or no-go decision everyday. There are many so many factors to consider, that the only fair comments that should be made are by people who have first hand knowledge of all these factors.

To flip the coin, what about pilots who cancel when it may be safe to go. Lets say, a pilot at a company cancels flights needlessly (needlessly being an argumentative opinion). This may have an effect on the business side of operations. This may lead to disgruntled customers and less work (flying) in the future. This will lead to less Captain Crunch in the cupboards of all the other employees at the company. But of course in the name of politically correctness, we should never question these guys? (That is a question and a statement in one sentence. I did that by putting a Question mark at the end of a statement. My english teacher told me I couldn't do that. I did it anyway because I obviously have complete disregard for any rules, why else would I be so brash to come on here and defend a guy for flying in a horrifically dangerous situation. After all he was probably just doing his job, oh wait are we allowed to say it is o.k. to let the "get the job done" factor influence our decisions?