"No phone calls please!"

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DBA
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Re: "No phone calls please!"

Post by DBA » Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:05 pm

Cranium wrote:As the guy who wound up answering the phone at our shop through my apprenticeship, I actually sympathize with the employers. I would rather read through a resume and answer any questions in a cover letter or during an interview than stop what I'm doing and risk pissing off a PAYING customer just to answer the phone 40 times a day just to answer questions like:

1. "So, um, how much do you pay?"
2. "How much vacation do I get?"
3. "How quickly will I get to left seat?"
4. "Where are you located?"
5. "What kind of planes do you have?"

By the way, the answers are:
1. Not as much as you'd like.
2. Not as much as you'd like.
3. Not as soon as you'd like.
4. Do some research before you apply, dummy!
5. Do some research before you apply, dummy!
...OR if you had all that information already in the job posting itself, that would have saved you the headache. Why is it that the negatives of the aviation industry outweigh the positives? Always found that rather fascinating.
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Re: "No phone calls please!"

Post by Cranium » Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:03 am

I do agree that the information would be helpful in the ad. It is irritating when an ad just says that salary/benefits are "competitive."

I also do not have a problem with good, intelligent questions. However, if those 5 questions are the first ones I hear, you won't get hired.

(By the way, it will likely be many years before I am actually in a position to do any hiring - I'm just a grunt for now)
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Louis
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Re: "No phone calls please!"

Post by Louis » Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:19 am

Of course I can understand managers being annoyed at a flood of phone calls.

However, this sort of thing works both ways.

Unlike some posters I don't completely mind waiting for an interview before discussing pay and work conditions in more detail.

But basic information such as what types your company flies, pilot bases, key staff, typical schedule (on call, rotation, etc) and office locations should be in the ad. Or on a functional, up to date website. Also, time minimums, knowing when they are set in stone or if there's a bit of wiggle room might remove some applicants from the get go.

There are two reasons I call: to know if calls have already been made for interviews or the position been filled, and to know if my resume made it to its intended recipient and if said recipient looked at it.

Leave a note next to the phone when you've filled a position you've advertised for. (Or some equivalent) Not only will you save time, so will I.

Another good idea would be to post your job ads on Avcanada using a username, and to update them as needed.
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Re: "No phone calls please!"

Post by TG » Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:42 am

Good post Louis except this.
Louis wrote:Unlike some posters I don't completely mind waiting for an interview before discussing pay and work conditions in more detail.
Sort of saying you will accept whatever they have to offer.
It's hard to negotiate something, on the up side I mean. When there is dozens of candidates knocking at the door and willing to work for less no matter what.

I will certainly try my best not loosing my time (and theirs) getting all prep up for an interview, doing it, only discover at the end that I just cannot afford their salary.
--->Unless I'm sure of the outcome via their reputation.<---

If it has to stay "confidential" it's either too high or too low. Too low being the most probable answer.



So Cranium, the salary question seems to be an intelligent one. Badly formulated but still a valid one :wink:

Just my personal view, nothing else and I stand to be corrected.
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Re: "No phone calls please!"

Post by Louis » Fri Feb 11, 2011 8:23 am

TG: I still like knowing in advance. But depending on the company's operations, like some corporate jobs or when contract work and bidding is involved that people may want to keep their cards for just a while longer.

Oh, another idea for receiving resumes via e-mail: make an alias for resumes with an auto-reply confirming receipt, and with perhaps additional things you want to tell your applicants.
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Re: "No phone calls please!"

Post by co-joe » Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:18 pm

I've been known to call anyway, but make sure you play dumb and ask if they are "going to be needing any guys" soon. ..."oh you have an ad on avcanada?..no I never go on there, I really prefer to talk to people..." Of course this can backfire. Oh you got a guy/ know a guy/ just lost a guy/ like to meet guys face to face/ got all the guys you can handle/ know a company that might be losing a guy?

That's a good one. I always asked if they had any leads to pass on. Amazing where that can take you. I found out about companies I'd never heard of, doing things I never knew airplanes could do, in places I didn't know existed. If they're really pissed at you for calling, tell em your name's Robert Loblaw from Seneca College, but you go by "Bob"...
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Re: "No phone calls please!"

Post by Doc » Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:25 pm

Get over yourselves!
You're in aviation management.
There are lots of pilots looking for work.
You are going to get phone calls.
It's your job.
Don't want to field calls?
Go back to flying the line.
Do your job.
Stop whining!
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Re: "No phone calls please!"

Post by skybaron » Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:22 pm

Doc wrote:Get over yourselves!
You're in aviation management.
There are lots of pilots looking for work.
You are going to get phone calls.
It's your job.
Don't want to field calls?
Go back to flying the line.
Do your job.
Stop whining!
+ :drinkers:

Exactly!
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Re: "No phone calls please!"

Post by KK7 » Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:41 pm

Hmmm...

As a professional pilot, my job is to fly an airplane the company owns, in a fashion the company wishes me to fly it. Following instructions from your company is not bending to their pressure, it's not employee vs. company. A company hires you to fly their valuable airplane, and they set out instructions and procedures for you to follow, and you must follow them. If you can't even follow the simple instructions on how to apply for a job in a job ad, then what does that say about your ability to follow their procedures? If I were the employer and you called when I asked you not to call, then honestly I can't trust you to fly my airplane.

There are many of us pilots out there always looking for greener pastures and to move up in the industry. There is usually one guy on the other end of the phone that has to answer the phone all the time. If phone calls were invited to answer very simple questions, then that would be a full time job in itself, and why would a company pay someone to answer these questions. I would hope that applicants to my company know who I am and take the time and effort to look it up. If they have to ask me who I am, what I fly etc... then I don't have any interest in hiring them. So a phone call would be pointless anyways.

Someone mentioned that sometimes the only way to get the info is if you know someone in the company, and there is the wisest thing that has been said. Welcome to aviation where networking and connections get you the job!
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Re: "No phone calls please!"

Post by Brewguy » Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:01 pm

As I'm pretty sure I already mentioned on the first page of this thread "no calls" is not something unique to the aviation industry. Look on any job board, for any and every industry, and you'll see the same thing. It is a common business practice for all kinds of businesses.

So for all you non-management types who have never had to post an ad, screen applicants, etc. You get over yourselves.

Go right now and look at other types of job postings. Look at Monster, Workopolis or the JobBank; look at all levels of job posting from general laborer to skilled trades to professionals ... It's all the same story. Don't call us, we'll call you.

The aviation industry is not so special or unique, that hiring processes should be that different. If I post an ad that specifies no calls, and you call anyway - I don't give a rats ass if you're the best applicant I've ever had ... your resume is going in the circular file.

I'll be damned if I'd hire someone who can't follow such a simple instruction.
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Re: "No phone calls please!"

Post by xsbank » Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:42 pm

Not everybody reads the ads, not everybody has a computer and not everybody is a pompous ass like the C.P.s I've been reading here. What a bunch of morons. What's wrong with this industry is it has a large proportion of arrogant dorks in management. Get over yourselves you are just a bunch of equipment operators.

XSBANK'S NUMBER ONE LAW/RULE OF JOB HUNTING - APPLY FOR EVERY JOB YOU WANT, NOT JUST THE ONES THAT YOU 'THINK' YOU CAN QUALIFY FOR.

And don't work for dickheads.
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Re: "No phone calls please!"

Post by Doc » Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:50 pm

Brewguy wrote:As I'm pretty sure I already mentioned on the first page of this thread "no calls" is not something unique to the aviation industry. Look on any job board, for any and every industry, and you'll see the same thing. It is a common business practice for all kinds of businesses.

So for all you non-management types who have never had to post an ad, screen applicants, etc. You get over yourselves.

Go right now and look at other types of job postings. Look at Monster, Workopolis or the JobBank; look at all levels of job posting from general laborer to skilled trades to professionals ... It's all the same story. Don't call us, we'll call you.

The aviation industry is not so special or unique, that hiring processes should be that different. If I post an ad that specifies no calls, and you call anyway - I don't give a rats ass if you're the best applicant I've ever had ... your resume is going in the circular file.

I'll be damned if I'd hire someone who can't follow such a simple instruction.
And I'd never fly an airplane for someone who's head is so far up his ass, he wouldn't stoop to talk to me on the phone. BTW, I have actually interviewed and hired quite a few pilots. I can tell more about a person in a three minute phone call, than I could ever learn from a three page resume full of cookie cutter bull shit. Resumes are ALL carbon copies of each other.
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Re: "No phone calls please!"

Post by cdnpilot77 » Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:26 pm

Lets not forget however that there are a few VERY good CP's as well. Some of whom gave me any amount of time they could spare. One of many very good examples of management that I encountered was the CP at NWA in Norman Wells. He, among others, was one of the most generous guys with his time that I had come across in my short career. He was always willing to chat if he had a few minutes and called me back if he didnt have time when I called. Class act and a tremendous help for me!
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Re: "No phone calls please!"

Post by trey kule » Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:47 pm

I think part of the whole problem with this thread is that some of us found the original post a bit offensive. There is a reason companies ask not to have people phone them, and while that may be inconvenient for some people ,it is the realitity

It is interesting how different people define what they believe other peopls's jobs should be and what they should be spending their time on.
And it is interesting that they define others jobs to best suit themselves.

When a CP is tasked by the ops mgr to get something done,the ops mgr doesnot want to hear at the end of the day it was not done because the CP spent an hour or two on the phone with job applicants calling for one reason or another....and that is what it used to take.

I too am of the mind that a. if you cant read and follow simple instructions or b. if you feel your needs override the company's requests, you are probably not someone we want to entrust with our plane several thousand miles away from base.

Rant away all you want. But if you want to work for our company you will be expecdted to request our wishes when we ask not to phone.
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Re: "No phone calls please!"

Post by Rowdy » Sat Feb 12, 2011 1:50 am

If the company is of the size that they require THAT much out of the CP, they usually have a receptionist answering the phone for him, there should also not be a published line to the man in charge either. Use the receptionist or the main line and have whoever answers it, be bright enough to deal with random pilots calling. Some of the larger companies (borek is one) utilize someone who is great at running block for the 'chief'. Hell you cant even walk in to the office to say hello without first passing her... so bring flowers, or chocolates or donuts.. wait.. bring all three! You can bribe the other pilots with the donuts till they agree to show you around.

If I see a "no phone calls" line for an ad at a place I wanted to work.. I'll pop by in person, the phone is even still too impersonal. :wink: Plus I wouldnt want to work for a lot of the know-it-alls and others that may frequent this forum if they dont have the decency to talk to me in person. How am I supposed to approach the CP or OPS mgr when I'm flying the line with a real problem if I cant even approach him about some of the pertinent job specifics. communication in the work place is key.

This still does not mean I'm going to call or walk in without having first researched the company. I'll KNOW what types they fly, roughly what the pay is, what the schedule is going to be like, the type of flying and the general reputation. Its a small industry, word gets around. Dumb questions should get smart ass answers!! All the info is out there if you look for it. Dont be a lazy SOB!!!

Alright, Rant mode off. :goodman:
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Re: "No phone calls please!"

Post by sheephunter » Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:07 am

With ads that do not have reference to an up and running website where company information can be gained, is an open invitation to phone calls unless everything with regard to the position is disclosed in the ad including at least a min/max salary and work schedule. If the above is met, then absolutely... someone calls and their resume gets filed. The respect needs to be two ways. If you don't want phone calls have the decency to post all the pertinent information of which a candidate could make an educated decision as to whether or not they actually want to throw their name in the hat. And yes, before I waste much time in pursuit, I want to know if we are even in the ballpark, so, what do you pay? Is it worth making the move, and though it doesn't always have to be the money that makes it worth the change, there aren't many that can take a big hit to be happy. For those employing, why get it narrowed down to those final few paper pilots to find out none will make a move for what you can pay. Everyones just wasting each others time. So, I guess unless you want a low timer for nothing, keep posting the ads with no information and "Do not call".
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Re: "No phone calls please!"

Post by Doc » Sat Feb 12, 2011 8:55 am

KK7 wrote:Hmmm...

As a professional pilot, my job is to fly an airplane the company owns, in a fashion the company wishes me to fly it.
I've seem MANY instances, where this is not the best of ideas...I've been in situations where doing exactly this would result in disaster for all involved. Generally speaking, and in the vast majority of times, you are correct.....but be careful with all encompassing, blanket statements. It IS your job to do what you say, conditions permitting.
Now, I think I hear your phone ringing....
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Re: "No phone calls please!"

Post by KK7 » Sat Feb 12, 2011 2:49 pm

Doc wrote:
KK7 wrote:Hmmm...

As a professional pilot, my job is to fly an airplane the company owns, in a fashion the company wishes me to fly it.
I've seem MANY instances, where this is not the best of ideas...I've been in situations where doing exactly this would result in disaster for all involved. Generally speaking, and in the vast majority of times, you are correct.....but be careful with all encompassing, blanket statements. It IS your job to do what you say, conditions permitting.
Now, I think I hear your phone ringing....

:lol:

Nice, I predicted you would say exactly this when I wrote it... I knew it!

So you're going to compare using pilot judgement/decision making from the standpoint of dealing with unusual situations in an aircraft for safety reasons to not following instructions when applying for a job? Yup, certainly very similar situations.


Also something else I wanted to comment on that was said earlier. I don't think you can compare the reachability of your chief pilot when you're an active employee of the company to his/her reachability when you haven't even had an interview with the company. I sometimes have to reach my chief pilot in urgent situations, and I would hope he doesn't have to spend all his time answering silly questions to potential employees at inconvenient times. He's a very busy person with a lot on his plate, and he does a great job making himself available for discussions. I know the company I work for if people could just call him if they had any interest in even applying for the job, he's have to hire a full time assistant just to answer the phone. I think with respect to other industries, accepting phone calls from potential employees asking questions before being offered an interview is the exception, not the rule. These managers have more important things to do with their time, like managing their employees.
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Re: "No phone calls please!"

Post by Doc » Sat Feb 12, 2011 2:56 pm

KK, shall we agree to disagree? I guess your employees need more managing than ours.
Fly safe.
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Re: "No phone calls please!"

Post by Gannet167 » Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:37 pm

I've worked in a number of different industries and it's very common, if not the generally accepted norm that you see a job advertised, do your own research on the company and build a resume and cover letter tailored to the job and the company. You can call to follow up, but generally the norm is "only those selected will be contacted." That means don't call, we'll call you.

It's up to the applicant to build a stand out application and demonstrate that they know key things about the company and the position. A lot of companies only accept applications online and their computer auto screens your application for key words that are part of their culture or operation. If you're not the right applicant, they wont call you. Calling them isn't going to help you stand out - if you stood out they would call you. If you don't meet the requirements, calling the office to have a chat isn't going to compensate for your lack of qualifications.
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Re: "No phone calls please!"

Post by Joe Blow Schmo » Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:55 pm

TG wrote:Good post Louis except this.
Louis wrote:Unlike some posters I don't completely mind waiting for an interview before discussing pay and work conditions in more detail.
Sort of saying you will accept whatever they have to offer.
Not like that at all. If there's not a fixed salary scale (in which case you should be able to easily find out the salary ahead of time) you don't want to talk money until the very end. Your negotiating position is much stronger after the company has already decided they like you and want to hire you. It's not always about the cheapest bum in the seat. Some people will be willing to pay a bit more to get somebody they think will do a good job and be a good fit in the company.
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Re: "No phone calls please!"

Post by Doc » Sat Feb 12, 2011 8:10 pm

Joe Blow....I think the very first thing on the table should be money. If it ain't enough, the conversation/interview is over. I'm not wasting my time, or theirs. eg. If the salary is within this range, let's chat. Otherwise, ciao. Of course, if it's a standard pay scale, and it isn't large enough, let someone else have the job. Simple.
Show me the money!
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Re: "No phone calls please!"

Post by justplanecrazy » Sat Feb 12, 2011 10:43 pm

Cranium wrote:As the guy who wound up answering the phone at our shop through my apprenticeship, I actually sympathize with the employers. I would rather read through a resume and answer any questions in a cover letter or during an interview than stop what I'm doing and risk pissing off a PAYING customer just to answer the phone 40 times a day just to answer questions like:

1. "So, um, how much do you pay?"
2. "How much vacation do I get?"
If you don't want to be asked the questions, then post the answers in the job posting. Seems simple enough to me. If you don't post the pay and vacation, then expect to get calls from pilots that don't want to waste your time or theirs in a lengthy interview.
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Re: "No phone calls please!"

Post by TG » Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:35 pm

In real estate, they have this lame strategy of "forcing" any potential buyer to call.
-->By not writing down a house's price in its advert<--

So yes,
justplanecrazy wrote:If you don't want to be asked the questions, then post the answers in the job posting.
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Re: "No phone calls please!"

Post by Gannet167 » Sun Feb 13, 2011 5:40 am

justplanecrazy wrote: If you don't want to be asked the questions, then post the answers in the job posting. Seems simple enough to me. If you don't post the pay and vacation, then expect to get calls from pilots that don't want to waste your time or theirs in a lengthy interview.
That is also the standard convention for posting jobs - put all the critical info in the advertisement.
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