Nationwide Pilot Union - Is it Possible??

[synthpro]

Was talking to my sister, and she told me she makes 60k a year and teaches grade 1! That plus a full pension.

Thats 25K more than me and I fly airplanes with passengers.

It is not the individual airline companies fault. Their variable costs are reflective of their pricing which must be competitive with others in a free market. That being said, I believe external artificial forces need to be placed in order to drive up our salaries. I would like to start a Nationwide Pilot union for 703 & 704 Ops. This would include a standardized pay-scale for every position, type rating and time on type.

If auto workers and post workers could do it, why not us?

Your thoughts

synthpro

[teacher]

This would solve our wage problem very fast. (see lawyers, doctors, dentists and many many other professions that have a college of some sort) There is a College of Pilots being formed however it's primary goal as of yet will not be wages and working conditions.

However there isn't the drive, energy or passion for this to occur for pilots. It's sad but it's true. We're too busy looking out for ourselves and "following the dream" to look at the bigger picture.

What so many people don't get is that if ALL pilots refused to work unless paid right and I mean ALL of us, things would change overnight. If we don't fly the planes they won't fly at all. Again, we as a divided group do not have the drive to accomplish this huge goal. It's sad really because we actually hold all the power.

[skybaron]

What so many people don't get is that if ALL pilots refused to work unless paid right and I mean ALL of us, things would change overnight. If we don't fly the planes they won't fly at all. Again, we as a divided group do not have the drive to accomplish this huge goal. It's sad really because we actually hold all the power.

+1

[futboler14]

a pilot went on national tv and said he would work for free.... how can anyone take pilots seriously?

taxi drivers have more class.

[Tiny Tyke]

Union = NO

Unity = Maybe

[CPLMike89]

Union = NO

Unity = Maybe

+1 count me in. Someone tell that guy from t.v. to shut it please.

[Panama Jack]

Any online video clips of that interview? I would love to watch some comedy.

[mbav8r]

synthpro, this is the link for the college website, they're not fully up and running yet but appear to be making progress. I believe that wages will be a concern of the college going forward. I think and hope they will cover it under the code of ethics, ie; No pilot will work for less than, insert wage here for catagory of aircraft. There is another thread in here somewhere with a good deal of debate about whether or not it will help our profession, I believe it will.
http://www.collegeofpilots.ca/Home/tabi ... fault.aspx

[mattedfred]

I believe that more pilots in Canada are represented by ALPA today than since Air Canada left CALPA.

I just heard that another airline may be joining ALPA in the very near future.

Imagine is we were all members of the same union and refused to scab for each other and had the ability to move from airline to airline while maintaining our original DOJ?

[mbav8r]

Imagine....dreaming of better days, imagine if all unions supported other unions in the same fashion. Someone pointed out recently that ACPA, a union shop has agreed to or is considering approving a non-union company over a union shop. I don't know if it would have made any difference if ACPA was instead ALPA members, being a seperate company, likewise I don't think it would have made a difference in the Jazz/Thomas cook relationship.

My Uncle is currently on strike and apparently some of the scab workers crossing the picket line are members of another union contracted out from another company. The only fortunate part is because his shop is a small(23) membership in a large union, thier strike pay is full wage at 40 hrs/week. So, they can wait them out, but the company has advised them that after a settlement is reached, they will be shutting down the plant for 6 weeks. Can you imagine the poisoness environment that'll be. The company continues operation with scabs, then after you settle with them, you're laid off for a 6 week shutdown. No date set, just whenever a settlement is reached. They must be saving a ton with scabs, because I can only see this tactic delaying any type of agreement.

[Tiny Tyke]

What most people don't know is that even if you are in a union, you still have to do the work(flying) assigned to you as long as it is not unsafe, and covered under your CBA.

To the best of my knowledge, you can be fired from your current job (even if part of a union) for refusing to do the work assigned to you, even if it appears to be 'scabbing.'

Example: Air Canada pilots go on strike.

Not scabbing - AC asks Jazz to do some of the routes normally covered by mainline using the DH8 and CRJ. In this situation the pilots would have no choice but to cover the assigned flying.

Scabbing - AC asks Jazz to have their pilots trained to sit and fly mainline aircraft. ALPA could drag their heels on the approval of this.

Anyone else with some Union knowledge have any thoughts?

[teacher]

Measures could be taken I'm sure to slow approvals and debate the issue however you are correct, unless it is illegal or unsafe you do have to comply by your company's orders.

As for another carrier joining ALPA that is correct, I believe an announcement will be made soon and several other carriers are in talks with ALPA to be represented. Our strength is in our numbers and they continue to grow.

[cptn2016]

Keeping in mind I know nothing about unions and nothing about flying for a living...
I have never been part of a union but know plenty of people that have. The general consensus is that when things are good they're really good, and when things are bad they're really bad.

Three things stick out for me:
1) Going on strike would be terrible...you could be out of flying for a year or more, and I doubt we'd be lucky enough to be paid full wages. I know of a few people that have gone on strike for 6 and 9 months respectively. Try doing that on a single income.

2) I have not made any definitive decisions about my future career path but I do know that one of the biggest reasons I am reluctant to pursue airlines is seniority. I am a late-starting career changer, and if I get on with an airline perhaps around the age of 40, there is not much room for me for upward mobility over the next 25 years if a bunch of the pilots there have been there since they were 30. If all pilots were to belong to a union, I suspect we'd all be slaves to seniority.

3) Considering how airline pilots have had their pensions slashed, their duty hours increased, etc. etc....are unions really working that well for us as a group? The bottom line is that if the company is not making money, it seems the unions are powerless to stop this kind of thing.

That being said, there are definitely plenty of positives, and we really could use more unity as a group. Just my thoughts, but again, I'll freely admit I know nothing about these kinds of things. I suspect I'm not the only one.

[slam525i]

From: http://www.collegeofpilots.ca

# Accreditation of pilots and maintenance of standards
# Accreditation of organizations training professional pilots
# Medical monitoring

You know what this means, right? Any FTU not paying their dues to the college won't be "accredited". Any smaller FTUs, especially the older flying clubs (as if those still exist anymore), will be forced out if accreditation is required. I think accreditation will be meaningless as Transport is the standard, and a valid one at that, but some MBA types love this sort of crap.

The only way for the College to have any "teeth" is in the very unlikely event that Transport hands over Commercial licensing to the College, and everyone has to go to an "accredited" dues-paying FTU to get a commercial. If that happens, you'll find me banging on the door of Transport and anyone else who'd listen. (I don't hold a commercial, and I don't want a commercial, but I'll be damned if I'll let a bunch of self-serving bastards tell me what license I can and cannot hold on the basis of union-dues!)

[shitdisturber]

Any online video clips of that interview? I would love to watch some comedy.

It was last night's episode of Ice Pilots NWT, one of the Dak newbie F/o's.

[iflyforpie]

I am wondering how many pilot jobs would simply disappear if there ever is a bar set on wages. Everybody wants good wages, but nobody is willing to sacrifice their career for it. No, you can't just slam the door behind you and expect things to change.

[Heliian]

Unions just don't work anymore, if you need proof just google union and you'll find all types of articles about strikes and lost time/wages and shutdowns and lockouts.

The purpose of unions was originally to improve safety and working conditions and a fair wage. All wages and workplace safety is covered by law now, hence no need for unions.

[frankfrank]

Hellian, wow, never seen anybody so wrong before.

Wages and workplace safety covered by law? Workplace safety maybe....on paper. Watch one episode on Ice Pilots and you'll see some poor bugger up on the wing of a C46 sweeping snow off. I'm surprised OHSC hasn't stepped up.

As for wages, the Canada Labour Code doesn't address the way the average pilot gets paid. Most non union guys don't get overtime unless they work on a day off. They can work 3x more than an office guy and see shit for OT. The only way to make up the oversights and deficiencies of the CLC regarding aviation is to unionize.

The CARs presently has it possible for a pilot to fly more than a trucker can drive. I've been an ALPA member for quite some time and I would never go without.

[teacher]

Unions just don't work anymore, if you need proof just google union and you'll find all types of articles about strikes and lost time/wages and shutdowns and lockouts.

The purpose of unions was originally to improve safety and working conditions and a fair wage. All wages and workplace safety is covered by law now, hence no need for unions.
Unions just don't work anymore, if you need proof just google union and you'll find all types of articles about strikes and lost time/wages and shutdowns and lockouts.

The purpose of unions was originally to improve safety and working conditions and a fair wage. All wages and workplace safety is covered by law now, hence no need for unions.

1) You are correct, the main point of unions was to improve working conditions. Without a union to protect and enforce proper working conditions pilots at many companies are expected to bend, break and sometimes risk our own lives to "get the job done". Maybe not you but I've seen friends, heard co workers and have myself been forced or attempted to be forced into doing unsafe, illegal and down right dangerous stuff. I've known a few pilots including myself who when declined to do these things were FIRED. Nice eh? Not all operators are like that but lets be honest here, safety costs money and the closer you can fly to the line without getting into an accident the more money they'll make.

2) Unions do work but only if the membership wants it to. If a union asks for reasonable wages and working conditions, works with the company to promote the business and strives to promote and improve safety unions are great. If they ask for unreasonble things and do nothing but put up roadblocks and fight with management well of course they're useless. A good union will only do what the membership asks.

[5x5]

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