The long down winded spiral of Instrument Time

[justwork]

Can you or Can you NOT log instrument hours if you are in the IFR environment but flying in VMC conditions? I hear one thing from licensing office in the country and something else from another licensing office. The Prairie region says yes, that IFR in VMC is counted as Simulated Instrument which counts towards the 75 hours of instrument time for the ATPL. Then I call ON and BC and the say otherwise. Which is it? You guys got any clue?

I would say that anytime you're filed IFR and using instruments to navigate then it is safe to log instrument time regardless if you're in VMC conditions or not. If you're in a training environment and simulated IFR then it's safe to log it. Screaming VFR conditions, but you're at FL250... Well I logged it as IFR and never heard anything about it. You start flying with reference to the horizon and before you know it you're +- a couple hundred feet and a mile off track.

[Liquid Charlie]

I can remember many years ago when one of the f/o's goes into wpg to get their ATP and he had his time questioned because he had logged 8 hours of instrument time in one day - I had signed and certified his book so I got involved - since it was just within a few months I told the TC guy to pull the wx records for that day -- NWO was covered with a low cloud deck topped topped above fl 200 -- his problem -- he didn't think anyone could fly 8 hours of IMC in one day -- I know we did -- I was there -- so it all depends on who is looking at your book and decides to pick pepper out of fly shit

Oh ya -- no stinking autopilot -- lmfaoooooooo

[old_man]

You start flying with reference to the horizon and before you know it you're +- a couple hundred feet and a mile off track.

But isn't that also the case with flying VFR. If you don't cross check your altimeter it will be +/- a couple hundred as well?

Also, I think people tend to forget that even if they file IFR and operate in VMC that they, depending on what airspace they are in, can be responsible for their own separation from VFR traffic. That means you have to look out the window. (Thus the suggestion of wearing a hood if you are the only one on board being frowned upon)

[TopperHarley]

I logged only the time in IMC. I would not log instrument time in VMC just because you're filed IFR. If you need to fly with reference to your instruments, then you should be logging it as such.

It only matters when it comes time to applying for your ATPL, and theoretically, once you have the time for it, you should have the necessary instrument time. Personally I stopped logging instrument time years ago.

[Big Pistons Forever]

For lack of any better direction I use the "can't see the ground" test. If I am in cloud or on top of a solid deck on an IFR plan then it is logged. For any given flight I make a off the top of my head guess at what percentage of the flight fit the test take that percentage of the air time. On Most flights it will be considerably less than the total air time. In any case chief pilots are not dumb. If they see a resume with 1000 hours TT and say 600 presented as "instrument" time they are going to call BS and bin it. If you are pursuing a commercial flying career better to understate instrument time, it will increase your credibility.

[loopa]

It only matters when it comes time to applying for your ATPL, and theoretically, once you have the time for it, you should have the necessary instrument time. Personally I stopped logging instrument time years ago.

The reason I am asking is because of my ATPL. What do I log as instrument and what do I log as simulated? Or is it all instrument if I lower my seat and fly off the instruments? It's absurd cause transport can't answer this question for me. Unless I called ON/BC in which case they outright said it has to be In cloud. None of this above cloud stuff you guys are talking about either.

Thanks!

[TopperHarley]

When I was flying, I only logged the time in IMC. Off the top of my head, when I did my ATP application I had around 2300hrs with around 120 instrument.

I dont know what the real rule is, but I dont think anyone in TC knows for sure either as it's kind of a grey area. Id use common sense in this case. If youre flying in IMC, its instrument. If you filed IFR but its VMC, dont log it as instrument. If its night time and youre above cloud and you cant see the horizon, its instrument time. If its IMC but you filed VFR, then you're a bad pilot

[loopa]

I only say this cause my instructing background but for the purpose of applying for a higher license can you log instrument and night at once ? I thought there was something about logging instrument and xc as well as night and instrument ?

[Doc]

Log 10-20% of your time, while on an IFR flight plan. Can't see that coming back to bite you on the ass? Usually, you climb out for a few minutes IMC, and descend a few minutes IMC. Or, why'd ya file?

[xsbank]

I don't think you can log any instrument time at all. What if you're IFR and you break out of the cloud and you can see something? That wouldn't be fair to log it as instrument time as that would be cheating. What if you actually looked out of the window or the autopilot was engaged? Nope, definitely not right to log instrument time, that would be cheating and somebody would get annoyed if you "over-logged" .2 or .3 or something.

What exactly do you think "instrument time" is anyway? Its rules, procedures, SOPs, 90%; 10% keeping the dirty side down. Why do you think so many value 2-crew time? CRM and procedures, not whether of not you can cheat the 2 minute death spiral.

When you are IFR and the weather is good, where are you looking? You still need to follow the airways or your 'direct to' and you do that how? Instruments! You get the prize for that correct answer. Any different when you are in cloud? NO! Ever tried to do an ILS by looking out the window? Do the little tiny needles look like windshield wipers?

If you are filed then log it.

[Hornblower]

IFR and IMC are both defined. They are not the same. If you are applying IFR (that’s in compliance with number of rules that apply to the way you conduct your flight), then that is IFR, regardless of whether or not you are in IMC (a defined term used to describe certain wx conditions with regard to a pilot’s visibility etc.). If you are flying IFR, then log IFR if it pleases you to do so, regardless of the met conditions. The only link between IFR and IMC is that: if you are in IMC, then you are not allowed to fly, unless complying with IFR (instrument flight RULES).Thousands of IFR flights take place every day in clear VMC conditions … they are still IFR flights … Jesus!

I Understand what Colonel Hedley is saying – that learning to fly by dials is important, but really, that is the easiest and least technical knowledge/experience that a real IFR pilot needs. The Colonel has a point of view, but it is not the regulated reality. The Colonel, has a long and storied legal history of confusing the actual meaning of a rule with his understanding of it.

[Colonel Sanders]

The Colonel, has a long and storied legal history of confusing the actual meaning of a rule with his understanding of it

My apologies if I have offended you, HB. I am not the legal expert that you are - merely a simple biplane pilot.

[ybwflyguy]

IFR and IMC are both defined. They are not the same. If you are applying IFR (that’s in compliance with number of rules that apply to the way you conduct your flight), then that is IFR, regardless of whether or not you are in IMC (a defined term used to describe certain wx conditions with regard to a pilot’s visibility etc.). If you are flying IFR, then log IFR if it pleases you to do so, regardless of the met conditions. The only link between IFR and IMC is that: if you are in IMC, then you are not allowed to fly, unless complying with IFR (instrument flight RULES).Thousands of IFR flights take place every day in clear VMC conditions … they are still IFR flights … Jesus!

IFR and IMC are indeed clearly defined, but in application for an ATPL the term "instrument time" is used by Transport, who then leave it up the inspectors to interpret what counts as "instrument". As always happens, some will get away with their numbers and some won't, depending on which office you went to, and whether your inspector has had a shitty day.

[loopa]

So it looks like at the end of the day the remarks of everyone in the industry is as vague as transport - probably because that's how transport left it. Some people suggest all of it, some people say its absurd, some people say IMC time only, others say IMC and above cloud. We have quite the brain storm going on here. I should book mark this post in case I get grief when I go in for my application submission lol.

Thanks anyway you guys!

[Snagmaster E]

You file IFR, you're flying IFR procedures, you are IFR in my book. Keep this in mind: How are they going to prove otherwise? Yes Solid IFR is, of course, a better trainer, but if you've been flying 2000 of IFR in VFR, you're looking inside most of the time anyway (well, assuming you're not doing contact approaches all the time). Besides, night flying in sparsely settled is IFR IMO.

Realistically I wouldn't worry about it.

[skybaron]

When you are IFR and the weather is good, where are you looking? You still need to follow the airways or your 'direct to' and you do that how? Instruments! You get the prize for that correct answer. Any different when you are in cloud? NO! Ever tried to do an ILS by looking out the window? Do the little tiny needles look like windshield wipers?

If you are filed then log it.

Bingo!

Logged as such, and TC never hassled me over it (as they shouldn't have) for my A ticket.

[lownslow]

When TC gets a logbook to audit that has exactly the ATPL requirements they begin to get suspicious, and rightfully so. Consider the intent of the instrument time you want to log and be honest when you put it in the book.

LnS.

[JMACK]

If you have between 5-10% of your total time when you go to get your ATPL nobody at transport will raise an eyebrow.

Now if it is a resume thing and your IFR is substantially more than 10% of your total somebody might scrutinize your claim.

.2 on a 1 hour hop no hairy eyeball!

Cheers............J

[loopa]

So in the grand scheme of things if im flying between cyyc and cyvr at night under Ifr and my air time is 3 hours and flight time is 3.3 am I logging 3.3 as sic, 3.3 as sic night xc, 3.0 instrument ? I thought they frown upon logging instrument, xc, and night in any combination. Or is this simply towards a higher license ?

[trampbike]

Am I wrong when I assume that someone could be an ATPL licensed pilot even though he never spent a single minute flying in a cloud?

Theses rules make no sense.

The Colonel has a point of view, but it is not the regulated reality. The Colonel, has a long and storied legal history of confusing the actual meaning of a rule with his understanding of it.

Do you mean like the time TC told him aerobatics below about 18 000 feet AGL were illegal, since in a vertical downline, you did not have the minimum 3 miles of visibility?