AVEOS closes the doors

[MZUNGO]

some encouraging news.


http://ca.news.yahoo.com/quebec-says-co ... 43165.html

[fleet16b]

I have many friends whose tools ended up behind closed doors after a company failure.Each was asked to set up a pick up time & then let someone associated with the reciever have a look inside the box to ensure that none of the ex companies tools were in your possession.You were then assisted with the removal of your tools & signed a release saying that you did indeed recieve your tools.
Bit of a hassle,but ended well.
Daryl

I work for one of the biggest Aircraft Engine Manufacturers in the world .
The above quote describes exactly how we deal with employee tools/personal items when they quit , get laid off or are dismissed.
In fact if the employee has no way of transporting their tool box home,once the box contents are inspected as above, we shrink wrap the toolbox and will ship it to their home.
It would be quite suprising if AVEOS was not doing the same thing . Its a fairly standard procedure in the industry

[Diadem]

Diadem,
You have your head in the sand? It is now a world market and the unions are holding us back from being competitive, like it or not/good or bad, we have to live with it , adjust now or worse times ahead. IMHO

I might ask you the same question. Did you not read the reports, including the ones in this thread, showing that Air Canada has been withholding both work and payments from Aveos? Now, do you have ANY proof that the wages paid to the employees brought about the insolvency rather than Air Canada violating their contract, or are you just union-bashing? As for being competitive, it's pretty hard for anyone, unionized or not, to compete with AMEs overseas who make $2/hr. Or are you saying that we should drop the minimum wage to match third-world pay scales and all thank whatever deities we pray to that we still get to go to work for such wonderful employers, even at 10% of what we used to make?

[Expat]

Today's news:

http://www.windsorstar.com/news/Windsor ... story.html


...The Aveos decision has nothing to do with less demand for MRO work — in fact the opposite is the case, said Marcel St-Jean, president of Local 1751 of the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers, which represents 1,800 Aveos employees in Montreal. He said non-unionized operations like Premier were already taking work away from Aveos, which according to court documents had abysmal relations with its main client...

Read more: http://www.windsorstar.com/news/Windsor ... z1pmJFuvwf

[CID]

Diadem,

It's well known that with all things considered, non-union shops are generally more efficient and profitable than union shops. That goes for any industry.

We also know that labour is expensive in Canada compared to many other countries in the world where aerospace maintenance is available.

That doesn't mean that Canadian companies can't compete, it just means they have to be innovative when it comes to how they run their companies. In general, aircraft mechanics in Canada are much more technically capable than their South American counterparts. Ask any airline just how closely their aircraft must be monitored at those facilities to ensure delivery and quality.

An average all-Canadian maintenance crew can cycle a large airliner through a C check MUCH faster than an average "developing world" crew. Unfortunately, the Canadian crews demand a higher wage and if they're unionized, and even higher wage for less productivity.

Talk to the average Aveos worker and ask what they do (tasks) at work each day. If you find one that's honest I think you'll be very surprised.

So I agree with the post that places a great deal of blame on the unions.

[Diadem]

I'm certainly not defending union practices in general - I'm not a member of one, and never have been - but to place the blame for Aveos's insolvency squarely on the IAMAW is rather absurd. A week before the shutdown the media was reporting on Air Canada transferring work overseas, and between that and unpaid bills Aveos wasn't able to stay in business. I doubt it would matter whether the employees were unionized and making $20/hr or non-unionized and making $15/hr, they didn't have a chance after AC decided to use overseas labour for 1/10 the cost. If anything, I see Aveos shutting down so abruptly with several AC aircraft in the hangars as a parting shot, leaving AC without several of its planes and without the time to set up alternate maintenance before their MRO shut down. If that's the case, I think the decision to liquidate was made as soon as AC decided to outsource, regardless of whether Aveos could have changed their business plan to survive in a different form.

[ruddersup?]

I've heard that the 80 mil. is a short fall of income for Aveos because of the outsourcing by Air Canada down south. I really don't believe that Air Canada owes them 80 mil.
My previous comments are not really directed at Aveos, you guys can speculate all you want on whatever. I'm talking about the country as a whole. Can the unions and down size goverment 15-20 %. The big picture is bleak and if China floats their dollar, hmmmmmm. We have a problem than is only going to get worse, tighten your belts and don't ask too much from your company.
Be really happy if you have a job. And of course if you believe all this then I have a used car in the parking lot I'd like to show you, lol.

[palebird]

Seriously people Air Canada has been outsourcing maintenance of all kinds for years to asia and south/central america. No big surprise there. This has all been part of the grand Milton plan. And no it is not coming back no matter what Quebec says or wants. The Aveos shops were some of the most inefficient around. I know, I used to work there. Left some years ago for bigger and better things. Looks like Aveos got the last laugh on AC by locking up some of their aircraft in a bankruptcy. Could not happen to nicer people.

[CID]

Diadem,

I don't understand how you can find that concept "absurd". Aveos shut down because their liabilities outstripped their assets far too much because they've been losing money like crazy.

If their workforce made less money and/or were more efficient, not only would they have lost less money, they would have attracted more work from airlines other than Air Canada. And "less money" doesn't have to mean less take-home pay. The Westjet model distributes profit to their employees. This plan makes employees take ownership for the ultimate success of the company. The guaranteed large paychecks at Aveos motivate the average employee to find a cozy place to sleep during the shift.

I mentioned in an earlier post that MROs with Canadian labour can compete. The "premium" example of that is Premier Aviation out of Trois Rivieres. Not only have they operated a successful operation, they are opening a very large new facility in Windsor that can hold a 747 or a couple of 737s. Or even an Airbus or two.

I wouldn't be surprised if they're eyeing the situation in Winnipeg closely. A nice big facility in a city where the operating costs are low is geographically in the middle of the continent. Fill that with some non-union competent (efficient) workers and you really have something.

There's no shortage of MRO work in Canada or operators who would prefer to keep their airplanes in North America. Unfortunately, in Winnipeg there is also no shortage of aerospace workers who haven't actually had to put in an honest day's work in their career at Aveos so if Premier does make a move to Winnipeg, they may have some difficulty finding local "talent".

[Rockie]

Unfortunately, in Winnipeg there is also no shortage of aerospace workers who haven't actually had to put in an honest day's work in their career at Aveos

Their career at Aveos?

Aveos has only been around a few years, and most of the people there never wanted to be there in the first place. Perhaps you should read up on AC/ACE history before spinning off on a union rant like that.

If Air Canada management were in the business of managing people instead of money this airline wouldn't have the problems it has. Instead they have Harlan (the goon) Clarke, the absurdly titled Director, Labour Relations attempting to intimidate the pilots by issuing threats of dismissal for getting sick.

Aren't you curious why Westjet is so successful and Air Canada is not? I'll give you a hint. They are infinitely better at managing people.

[Colonel Sanders]

why Westjet is so successful and Air Canada is not?

If you're as smart as you keep telling everyone that you are, why do you still work for AC instead of WS?

[Rockie]

why do you still work for AC instead of WS?

Been explained...look for it.

If you're as smart as you keep telling everyone that you are

Please provide a single quote where I've bragged about how smart I am. Just one Hedley.

[Beefitarian]

I'm curious about Aeroman in ElSalvador. I wonder if they are getting increased Air Canada maintanence volume due to the AVEOS shut down?

[CID]

Rockie, I'm well aware of the history of Aveos. You ask me if I know what I'm talking about, then start off on a rant about pilots. Are you aware that Aveos doesn't employ pilots?

I also know that many Aveos employees are just ex-Air Canada unionized labour with a different logo on their work clothes. Generally the same pile of people that worked in that hangar directly for Air Canada. Still unionized, still inefficient.

If you wonder why Westjet apparently manages their people better it's because they don't have a union acting as a constant barrier to communication. With the union in place it's always "us against them". The union leads spend every waking moment explaining to the leadership how management is ripping them off. Westjet workers spend that energy wondering how they can make things more efficient, safer and profitable. And if you think that all those Air Canada pilots were legitimately sick, I've got a bunch of computer cables I'd like to sell you. You know. The ones that those unionized Air Canada ticket agents cut during their dispute with the airline.

[Colonel Sanders]

People think I'm anti-union, and that's not quite true. I've
actually been a dues-paying member of two different unions
(althought what I saw didn't exactly impress me).

What I learned is that although a union itself is not necessarily
bad, it's a warning flag. If the employees of a company need
to join a union to protect themselves from the management,
it says bad things about the company's management.

If the company's management mistreats its employees to the
point where they need a union, the management probably similarly
treats it's customers with contempt.

Any company that treats it's customers and employees with
contempt is bad news. You don't want to own shares in it,
and you don't want to work there.

[Rockie]

You ask me if I know what I'm talking about, then start off on a rant about pilots. Are you aware that Aveos doesn't employ pilots?

Why yes I am. Referring to intimidation techniques as an example of very poor personnel management within the larger context of the discussion is hardly a rant about pilots. You haven't heard my rant about pilots yet.

I also know that many Aveos employees are just ex-Air Canada unionized labour with a different logo on their work clothes.

I'd say more than "many" are ex-Air Canada. Aveos used to be ACTS, and people there were given a choice of go to work for Aveos or apply for unemployment. Air Canada mechanics didn't go begging to ACE asking them to spin them off into a separate company.

If you wonder why Westjet apparently manages their people better it's because they don't have a union acting as a constant barrier to communication.

You have that exactly backwards. Westjet doesn't have a union precisely because they know how to manage people.

And if you think that all those Air Canada pilots were legitimately sick, I've got a bunch of computer cables I'd like to sell you. You know.

The company's own records show there were no more pilots booked off than this time last year. Could it be the company saw an opportunity to blame chronic under-staffing and cancellations caused by extremely poor visibility and degraded airport operations on the pilots? Nah, that couldn't be it. They're far too ethical for that.

[hawker driver]

If you wonder why Westjet apparently manages their people better it's because they don't have a union acting as a constant barrier to communication. With the union in place it's always "us against them". The union leads spend every waking moment explaining to the leadership how management is ripping them off. .

I have worked in both Union and non Union. Through my experience I found that working under a union contract my license , my safety and my job were all more secure.

Prior to the union coming on site managers regularly bent the rules and made all the regulation appear to be grey. Company boys spent every waking moment explaining to the workers how if they weren't "team players" they would end up out of a job. Some pilots were afraid for their jobs and risked their lives and licenses so as to please all the requests from management. This blind devotion to management cost some pilots blemishes on their licenses. Of course, management turned their backs on the guys when they got in trouble and pointed to the "official company policy" to throw them under the bus.

When the last straw was broken an organizing effort started and after a long hard fight we were all working under a contract. Things changed instantly, safety improved and managements attitude also changed. The pilots started being treated with respect, they weren't asked to do things that were dangerous. When some managers tried to push the pilots a simple request back to the manager to put it in an official e mail and send it to me, settled that problem quickly.

Three years later the company is now turning solid profits ( even through the recession). Management is working with the pilots to resolve problems before they occur and the union is working with management to help increase safety and customer service. In the end my union experience turned out to be a positive one.

Even those who were against the union when it was being formed agree that working under a contract is better and they too wouldn't want to go back to the way things were before one. So you see there are just as many positive aspects to unions as you claim there are negative.

[CID]

Hey, there are always exceptions but I don't think you can compare your case with Air Canada and Aveos hawker driver. Wait a couple of decades for your collective agreement to get a little more "experienced". And of course, just like my opinion, your opinion is one side of the story. I wonder if others in your company feel the same.

My opinion is borne from discussions with SEVERAL Air Canada/AVEOS/ACTS employees and former employees over the years as well as discussions with committed union workers. (For what its worth)

I personally know half a dozen maintainers who left Air Canada after only a week or two because of the insanity of the union shop. The key words in those discussions were "inefficient", "unproductive" and "lazy".

[hawker driver]

Hey, there are always exceptions but I don't think you can compare your case with Air Canada and Aveos hawker driver. Wait a couple of decades for your collective agreement to get a little more "experienced". And of course, just like my opinion, your opinion is one side of the story. I wonder if others in your company feel the same.

My opinion is borne from discussions with SEVERAL Air Canada/AVEOS/ACTS employees and former employees over the years as well as discussions with committed union workers. (For what its worth)

I personally know half a dozen maintainers who left Air Canada after only a week or two because of the insanity of the union shop. The key words in those discussions were "inefficient", "unproductive" and "lazy".

While my experience with unions can't be compare with AC and Aveos, likewise your generalization about unions and union members cannot carry over to others.

I too know of AME 's who left their jobs at other airlines and MX organizations because of the insanity of managers who wanted them to sign off aircraft that weren't repaired. The key words I heard were "Dangerous" , "illegal" and "crazy". When he left it was not long before he received another job offer since the word went out that he doesn't cut corners on safety. I was very pleased to hear that since this went to show that there are organizations who still put safety first. Unbelievably there are still organizations who put profit first.

[azimuthaviation]

I'm curious about Aeroman in ElSalvador. I wonder if they are getting increased Air Canada maintanence volume due to the AVEOS shut down?

Nah, you guys dont need to chase your jobs that far,

On a transitional basis, the airline has identified qualified and government-approved maintenance facilities in Canada and the U.S. to undertake work that was scheduled to be performed by Aveos consistent with the high standards of Air Canada's maintenance programs. The transition to new service providers is already underway and will have no impact on customers. For example, three aircraft scheduled for maintenance this week will go to a Quebec-based maintenance provider currently used by other Canadian and international airlines.