Logging Sim Time

[Airmann]

Quick question, in all TC compliant logbooks, there is a clear remark that only columns 1-10 should be included in one's "Grand Total". This basically includes only real flying hours. Is there any category of sim time that can be included in Grand Total, i.e. Level D Full motion etc. I know that in the US there is some question as to whether it can be included, and their categories for logging things are a lot more complicated. But not to digress, can sim time be logged in one's Grand total in Canada?

Thanks

[rapid602]

Correct me if I am wrong but all most flying schools and colleges with sims, have a log book they must keep when you fly the sim. You are allowed to do thing like do IFR practice, approaches and all kinds of other stuff in sims, including flight test and renewals. So talk to your school about what you can log and what you can not. The schools sims must meet an approval and once it does I think it gets a number.

I have microsoft flight sim X on my computer and fly it IFR all the time. I have a control yoke for it, throttles, mixtures and rudders, I have purchased like a Citation 550, Citation X and a PC12 for it. The graphics in it is better than many of the flight schools I have used and one instructor saw some of the pictures and he said My sim was probably better than the one the flying school had. HOWEVER ..... IT WORKS GREAT .. and you can not log any of it.
It is strictly for fun and practice.

[Panama Jack]

I am not a Canadian Regs guru, but I ask myself for what purpose do you want to log it in total time?

If TC or some other agency (other goverment or insurance) gives credit for sim time For a license, rating or insurance coverage they will usually have a little box for that on the form.

If you are trying to pass off to a prospective employer you have more flight time than you really have . . . well, I think I've answered the question. You wouldn't be the first person to have thought of this- some airlines specifically state on their app forms to not count simulator time. They are called "simulators" for a reason.

[co-joe]

I used to log sim time, but I saw the error of my ways.

[it'sme]

Speaking from the perspective as one who reviews CV's, is a member of an interview board etc, if it became apparent that an individual was attempting to include simulator time as part of their grand total of flight hours, wherever they were in the process at that time would end at that point. If an individual wants to highlight their simulator time that was part of a training or a recurrent training program then go ahead and do that as a separate entry. At the end of the day, irrespective of specific allowances permitted towards a specific rating or licence by a regulator, the time spent while bolted to the floor should not be considered as part of your flight time totals.

I am aware of at least one individual, about a decade ago, whose employment was summarily terminated when the employer learned that simulator time had been included in flight hour grand totals. This inclusion had put the candidate just over the minimum requirements for employment consideration. The company's legal council was of the opinion that fraud had been committed and termination was the appropriate course of action.

[Colonel Sanders]

Simulators don't fly. Therefore simulator time is not flight time, because by definition flight time is "time spent in flight". I'm not sure why this is being discussed.

[rapid602]

Sorry to sound like an ass. BUT

Transport Canada's own rules for example say that you need 40 hours of instrument dual of which 20 hours may be aquired in a simulator. There are airlines and charter companies that do flight test in simulators. Does any of this sound familiar ???

I was just offered a job and there was to be simulator training as part of the total training for the flight test ... so Transport Canada recognizes it as training ... and so did the company who wanted to include it in the total cost of what the training bond was going to be.

You can renew your Multi IFR in a simulator, so if you don't log it .... how do you prove you did it. Whether or not you include it in your flight time totals is your business but if your are in a simulator you should log the dates and what you did. Now we are splitting hairs here.

Airlines own simulators and do sim training all the time ... you are telling me that shouldn't count. I was at Flight Safety and after two hours in that sim .... I would have sworn I was out night flying .... that sim even had dirt on the floor just like the real airplane.

Alright rip away ....

[bstock]

Sorry to sound like an ass. BUT

Transport Canada's own rules for example say that you need 40 hours of instrument dual of which 20 hours may be aquired in a simulator. There are airlines and charter companies that do flight test in simulators. Does any of this sound familiar ???

I was just offered a job and there was to be simulator training as part of the total training for the flight test ... so Transport Canada recognizes it as training ... and so did the company who wanted to include it in the total cost of what the training bond was going to be.

You can renew your Multi IFR in a simulator, so if you don't log it .... how do you prove you did it. Whether or not you include it in your flight time totals is your business but if your are in a simulator you should log the dates and what you did. Now we are splitting hairs here.

Airlines own simulators and do sim training all the time ... you are telling me that shouldn't count. I was at Flight Safety and after two hours in that sim .... I would have sworn I was out night flying .... that sim even had dirt on the floor just like the real airplane.

Alright rip away ....

I don't believe anyone here is of the opinion that simulator time should not be logged. Most of the posts here have stated it should be logged, but not anywhere in columns 1-10. As stated earlier, simulator time is not flying and should not be logged as such.

[snowbear]

Cut and paste from CAR 101.
"air time" - means, with respect to keeping technical records, the time from the moment an aircraft leaves the surface until it comes into contact with the surface at the next point of landing; (temps dans les airs)

If the wheels do not leave the ground you have not gone flying.

Simulators are training aids. They are now complex enough to replicate a real airplane in many ways. They are good enough that regulators have lowered the amount of actual flying time required for specific training and replaced that time with simulator training time.
Ther is no real jeopardy in a sim. If you make a mistake in a simulator the worst you do is push the reset button and continue to do the manouver until you get it correct. Make that same mistake in a real airplane and ............................?

[Wacko]

Well, if you could count your sim time as "flight time" then there would be instructors out there with Twin-PIC meeting NASA's requirement...

[co-joe]

I think you need to make the distinction between a "FTD" and a true Cat C/D sim. If it's real enough to do your ride on (ie full motion with cat C or D visuals), it would make sense to log it towards towards total time.

[bstock]

If it's real enough to do your ride on (ie full motion with cat C or D visuals), it should go towards total time.

No...

[tbaylx]

No, cat c/d sim time should not go towards total time. By all means log your sim time, but it never has and never will count towards total time. If you apply to most airlines and they find you applying sim time towards flying time you'll be out the door pretty fast. Flight time is in an aircraft, that's what goes towards total time. Log your sim time, but don't mix it with your flight time totals.

[co-joe]

[Cat Driver]

What exactly is the problem here?

Total flight time is exactly that " TOTAL FLIGHT TIME ".

Total simulator time is ......" TOTAL SIMULATOR TIME ".

They are not the same thing and anyone who argues they are is free to log whatever they wish......
.........if you applied to me for a job and tried to impress me with your simulator time and convince me it is the same as flight time I would not hire you because you have comprehension problems.

Here is my problem with pilots who use simulator time as a benchmark of their competence.....they could have crashed the simulator 50% of the time they were in it and I would not have any way of knowing it....but it is highly unlikely they would have crashed many airplanes that would not be recorded.

[Shiny Side Up]

....but it is highly unlikely they would have crashed many airplanes that would not be recorded.

You'd be suprised. Technically a pilot to be licensed privately had only to end one flight not in a crash, and to be commercially licensed terminate two flights without accident. I've never seen a resume that made mention of any bent metal a pilot has had, nor ever seen it noted in a log book.

[tbaylx]

Perhaps neither of you have spent time in a state of the art simulator?

So you'd put "on wing" training where you simulate zero thrust, pretend to do V1 cuts at altitude, pretend to do single engine overshoots, wear a hood to simulate IMC and simply can't do single engine'd circling approaches to a downwind downhill runway at 1200 RVR because it's too dangerous, etc in your logbook?

But if you went to Simufllite or Simcom or any other first rate training facility, to actually perform RVR 600 departures at Laguardia, V1 cuts at 0.1 CRFI and max crosswind, see a fuel truck actually pull out onto your runway at minimums requiring a gross weight, and ISA + lots with the critical engine failed go around in a full motion simulator certified for a Part 121 Car 705 check ride, you wouldn't count that?

I'm not talking about Frasca 142 or computer based procedures trainer time, that's a different story. It goes in the sim category only. Nobody would argue that.

Co-joe...I have over 500 hours of sim time in my log book..most of it in level d sims on jet transport category aircraft. I know how good they can be, and how nice the visuals are. It's still logged as sim time and doesn't count as flight time in my log book. So yes, i'd put actual aircraft training in my logbook and not the sim time. No one trains in the real aircraft in a jet anyway because it's too damn expensive and you don't want to be doing the same maneuvers in a real airplane that you do in a sim unless you are forced to in a real emergency.
Doesn't matter how good the sim is and how valuable a training aid it is, its still not an aircraft and can't be logged as flight time.

And really? a 1200RVR circling approach to land downwind? I wouldn't even be doing that in a sim, since i wouldn't do that in a real airplane.

[Cat Driver]

nor ever seen it noted in a log book.

Yes, generally speaking a pilot can try and keep any accidents a secret.

However if said pilot were asked if they had ever had an accident and they replied no but they had in fact had one that is lying...period...

....aviation is a bad place to try and get ahead by lying about your experience or accident record.

[Nark]

I fly by different rules, so I'm not going to bother talking about the legality of logging the time, however I'll chime in about logging of currency, with use of simulators:

Night landing with 90 days for me to carry passengers. Do it in the sim, it's in the log book to show the feds when they ask.
Instrument currency in the sim goes in the logbook to show the feds I'm still current (there are some issues that get muddled because I'm an FO, but that's beside the point).

I log sim time, but don't count it towards total time, but that's just my take.

[ahramin]

I just finished 50 hours of level D sim. Simulator time is extremely valuable - and in most cases invaluable - for learning how to fly a specific type of aircraft, but that's about it. When you are in a simulator you are in an environment controlled by the instructor, and are gaining very little if any experience in operating an aircraft in the real world. Even in a LOFT, which purports to recreate a realistic environment, you are practicing flying a plane. You aren't doing it. You are interacting with a computer and an instructor. The computer simulates many aspects of the real world and the real airplane, but that's all it is: simulation.

Flight time is the time you have spent operating an aircraft. In no way does simulator time meet that requirement.

If I realized that someone working for me or being interviewed by me had counted simulator time as flight I would invite them to explain and follow up with many pointed questions about airmanship and command. I'd be surprised if they had satisfactory answers.