do company pilots/mechanics count is pax under 703?

[The5chord]

Was doing a ground school for a college program and one of the students sort of stumped me with a question. If you have 9 paying customers on an airplane under 703 can a mechanic or another company pilot be put on that plane or do they considered a passenger? I felt a little embarrassed at not knowing the answer so I thought I would like to complete my humiliation by posing it to you guys. Can anyone help me out?

[gianthammer]

9 seats = 703

10 seats = 704

# of pax is irrelevant

[The5chord]

9 seats = 703

10 seats = 704

# of pax is irrelevant

So if I am flying a plane single pilot IFR I may choose to put a passenger up front with me or not. If not I might put 9 seats in the back and have the copilots seat vacant. In which case I might have 10 seats on the aircraft available but only 9 with pax in them. Which according to your response is irrelevant and I should be operating under 704.

Not really a good enough answer to go back to the class with I think.

[Jack In The Box]

9 seats = 703

10 seats = 704

# of pax is irrelevant

No that's not quite correct. It's seats available. I regularly fly 703 with 14 seats in my plane, however only 9 seats have been made available for sale, and the other 5 seats are placarded as "unavailable." So actually, it's based entirely on the number of passengers.

To answer the OP's question, if you are putting on extra pilots/mechanics for the purpose of moving them from point A to point B, then the answer is yes they count as passengers and no you could not put 10 on and call it 703 just because one works for your company and is not a revenue passenger. If, however, they are required crew, then it does not count.

Also, infants do not count to the total of passengers based on seats available.

[The5chord]

Ok, that makes sense. Are there any references for this or is it just interpretation. I am not sure what the definition of required crew is. If I was flying single pilot IFR and I decided to have another pilot along... from what I understand I can have another pilot along if I want and I am not required to have accepted SOP's although some SOP's are encouraged. That pilot is not "required" but is allowed to sit in the right seat. Correct?

9 seats = 703

10 seats = 704

# of pax is irrelevant

No that's not quite correct. It's seats available. I regularly fly 703 with 14 seats in my plane, however only 9 seats have been made available for sale, and the other 5 seats are placarded as "unavailable." So actually, it's based entirely on the number of passengers.

To answer the OP's question, if you are putting on extra pilots/mechanics for the purpose of moving them from point A to point B, then the answer is yes they count as passengers and no you could not put 10 on and call it 703 just because one works for your company and is not a revenue passenger. If, however, they are required crew, then it does not count.

Also, infants do not count to the total of passengers based on seats available.

[oldtimer]

This can be one confusing issue.
Now, where I came across this was the CARS requirement where if passengers are carried in a multi engine airplane at night of IFR, the airplane has to be capable of maintaining the MOCA of the route to be flown with one engine inoperative.
And the verdict, at least as far as I can determine, was that if another pilot, the owner or a mechanic are on board and are not being assigned on-board duties, they are considered passengers. IMHO

[Jack In The Box]

Ok, that makes sense. Are there any references for this or is it just interpretation. I am not sure what the definition of required crew is. If I was flying single pilot IFR and I decided to have another pilot along... from what I understand I can have another pilot along if I want and I am not required to have accepted SOP's although some SOP's are encouraged. That pilot is not "required" but is allowed to sit in the right seat. Correct?

9 seats = 703

10 seats = 704

# of pax is irrelevant

No that's not quite correct. It's seats available. I regularly fly 703 with 14 seats in my plane, however only 9 seats have been made available for sale, and the other 5 seats are placarded as "unavailable." So actually, it's based entirely on the number of passengers.

To answer the OP's question, if you are putting on extra pilots/mechanics for the purpose of moving them from point A to point B, then the answer is yes they count as passengers and no you could not put 10 on and call it 703 just because one works for your company and is not a revenue passenger. If, however, they are required crew, then it does not count.

Also, infants do not count to the total of passengers based on seats available.

All the answers you seek are going to be specifically addressed in your company ops manual, which will be specific to each company. (Remember this when you get online. It's an undervalued tool for commercial pilots). There are many companies that are required by their COMs to have 2pilots on single pilot aircraft. That's one example of required crew. Many long haul carriers need relief pilots. That's required crew. Many carriers have planes certified for single pilot ifr but clients require 2 pilots Asa condition of sale. That's required crew (whether they have sops or not).

Hope this answers your question

[oldtimer]

giant hammer is, unfortunatly partially incorrect.
9 paying passengers, CARS 703 can apply and can be flown single pilot however the "extra" pilot carried has to be assigned on-board duties which means at least a PCC and a type rating for heavy or high performance if required.
To carry more than 9 passengers but less than 20, the airplane has to be certified under USA Part 23, sFAR 23, Special Provisions which first of all, requires 2 pilots and the airplane has to have demonstrated one engine inoperative take-off performance and two engine balked landing preformance in addition to extra emergency exits. One emergency exit on each side of the airplane cabin plus the entrance door for 15 passengers or less and two emergency exits on the side opposite the main entrance door plus the emergency exit.
However, a Part 23, sFAR 23 Special Provisions airplane (CARS 704) may be operated as a FAR23 (CARS 703) airplane if the limitations of Part 23 (CARS 703) are complied. So placard 10 of the 19 seats as inoperative and commence to commit avaition.

[Conquest Driver]

As far as I know it's passenger seats occupied. Captain and Frist Officer don't count as long as your Operations Manual requires a 2 person crew. As far as I know you cannot count other company employees as crew.

So you put 9 adults in the seats and 9 babies in their arms (under 2 years of age) and you're OK under 703

[AuxBatOn]

It scares me sometimes reading here that commercial pilots cannot find the applicable litterature (regs or otherwise)....

I had no idea where to find the answer initially, yet after 5 minutes or hard work (on an iPhone) that it is actually clear in the CARs....

703.01 This Subpart applies in respect of the operation by a Canadian air operator, in an air transport service or in aerial work involving sightseeing operations, of any of the following aircraft:

(a) a single-engined aircraft;
(b) a multi-engined aircraft, other than a turbo-jet-powered aeroplane, that has a MCTOW of 8 618 kg (19,000 pounds) or less and a seating configuration, excluding pilot seats, of nine or less;
(b.1) a multi-engined helicopter certified for operation by one pilot and operated under VFR; and
(amended 2005/12/01; no previous version)
(c) any aircraft that is authorized by the Minister to be operated under this Subpart.

703.24 No air operator shall operate a single-engined aircraft with more than nine passengers on board unless
(a) the aircraft is a transport category helicopter;
(b) the air operator is authorized to do so in its air operator certificate; and
(c) the air operator complies with the Commercial Air Service Standards.

703.86 No air operator shall operate an aircraft with passengers on board in IFR flight with than two pilots unless the air operator
(a) is authorized to do so in its air operator certificate; and
(b) complies with the Commercial Air Service Standards.

"passenger" - means a person, other than a crew member, who is carried on board an aircraft; (passager)

So, in short:
-in a single engine, 9 is max
-multi-engine, you could getaway bringing 1 up front if you are single pilot. (Empty pilot seat)
-passenger means anyone who is not a crew member (including babies unless they are not a person)

You can caveat everythinh with unless authorized to do so...

[The5chord]

"passenger" - means a person, other than a crew member, who is carried on board an aircraft; (passager)


So, in short:
-in a single engine, 9 is max
-multi-engine, you could getaway bringing 1 up front if you are single pilot. (Empty pilot seat)
-passenger means anyone who is not a crew member (including babies unless they are not a person)

You can caveat everythinh with unless authorized to do so...

I am pretty sure that babies or technically "infants" are not considered passengers. Stated above you could feasibly carry 18 people on a plane operated 703 if you had 9 passengers and 9 infants.

[The5chord]

It seems like the most concise answer is in the definition of crew member rather than passenger.

"crew member" - means a person assigned to duty in an aircraft during flight time

If you don't have duty then you must be a passenger unless you are an infant. At least that's how I read it.

so if you are going to carry a mechanic or a pilot. make sure you assign him duties!!

[snoopy]

Ummmmm... No. You can't label a company employee a "crewmember", assign them duties and not count them. Unless of course it is a flight attendant required to be there under CARS. A "person assigned on board duties" applies to 702.

A flight crew member on the other hand, could be carried, provided they are required by the CARS and/or Ops Manual and provided they have the appropriate credentials and training.

As AuxBatOn points out, the information is easily discoverable in the CARS after a brief search. The CARS are not mysterious or complicated. Practicing your search proficiency in the various areas of CARS pertinent to your operation will improve your professionalism and help you stay on top of your responsibilities as a pilot.

Cheers,
Kirsten B.

[AuxBatOn]

Kristen,

CARs specify MINIMUM crew. It is not to say the company cannot assign more crew members to a flight. I'm sure, though, that a pilot would have issues defending himself in court because he himself assigned duties to a mechanic, even if not required by the company in order to bring one more person on the flight...

As far as infants are conserned, it depends how they are secured.

On the lap: doesn't count.
In a child-restraint device: counts.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/s ... 6-1718.htm

[spaner]

You should be able to quote the CARs like a preacher does the Bible. Start small, and work up from there. It is after all the governing structure of your employment.
Sometimes many sections have to be referenced to paint the picture of the scenario in question. An infant becomes a person when the weight of the infant must be counted and added to the W&B. The weight of infants must be considered when the total number of infants exceeds a specific percentage of the passenger population onboard. So there is actually a limit for the consideration; restricting the number of "persons" onboard.
An employee can be assigned any duties that the PIC deems as required, under the self-dispatch-system. No higher authority is required. Today, an AME, is your designated ice detection technician for the right side of the aircraft. He does have proper training to fulfill that position.
Also, a flight consisting of only company personnel is, considered a private flight. IE Christmas party taxi. 703 standards do not apply for this flight. (also, you are not payed for this flight

Detailed, but not too complicated. There are other governmental oversight agencies though. Take insurance. Mandatory to have it, under Civil Aviation governance. Coverage for every passenger seat.
Insurance however only provides specific coverage per seat on a single occupancy rule. Say, 1m/seat public liability. They do not allow two persons per seat; and they define such as a "soul". and being the sole occupant of a seat.heh, heh..
So, you could be OK on one side of the regs, but not have proper coverage on the other side, and be in violation for not having proper insurance coverage for the service being offered.

At this point the PIC will plead ignorance, of course....

Learn those Regs!

[The5chord]

"You should be able to quote the CARs like a preacher does the Bible. Start small, and work up from there."

Now there is an apt metaphor. Let's get a bunch of preachers in a room and see if they agree. Perhaps a Pentacostal, Methodist, Baptist, and Mennonite etc and have a discussion about the Bible and see how much agreement we get on the source material. The discussion will probably turn out like the one above.

I was making a bit of a joke about making sure you assign your companies pilot or mechanic duties while on board in case some of you didn't pick up on that. One of seemed to think this is a viable route to take and I am sort wondering myself now. Others profess you cannot simply assign duties and allow them on board but I have yet hear any proof of this just declarations that you can't do it.

Please stop making the statements about "all this information is readily in the cars and I am scared you didn't know that." A lot of the posts containing this pious remark contain errors themselves.

I appreciate the insights so far.

[AuxBatOn]

The5chord,

You are teaching people. You need to be able to look for answers in the appropriate litterature or ask questions about interpretation (because there is a bit of that, see infant seats) of said litterature to the appropriate authorities. You owe that to your students. Telling them that BigBalls on AvCanada said so doesn't cut it.

The information is available in the CARs. As a commercial pilot it is your job to know what is applicable to you and be familiar with it and you should be at the very least able to reference it to find answers to your questions. Nobody expects you to know it verbatim.

[kevinsky18]

This is a great thread and thanks to OP for getting it started. It's clear from the multiple posts that it's a topic up for debate and the answer isn't cut and dry.

I for one have flown for a couple of companies that never included infants on the manifest and I always felt uncomfortable about this, not from a W&B perspective but from a search and rescue perspective. A manifest is meant among other things to provide a list of people to look for. If infants aren't included on the manifest how do you know to look for them in that twisted pile of rubble?

For those who do not include infants on their manifest I would strongly suggest you do and simply make a notation "infant" so at audit time it's clear why you have more pax than seats.

[77W]

In our mutli turbine operation, the crew and their bags are part of the operational empty weight. When flying under 703 we have 9 available seats which can be filled with paying/company people. Doesn't matter if they're paying or not. The curve ball is babies who are held in the lap. Technically under 703 rules, you could have only 9 seats, with 16 souls on board (2 crew, 4 pax on the exit seats (no babies), 5 other pax all holding 5 babies).

[ahramin]

I'm not sure you all caught the most important part of Spaner's post. If there are no paying passengers on board, is the flight being operated under 703?