Temporary foreign pilots in 2013

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Gilles Hudicourt
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Temporary foreign pilots in 2013

Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Mon Jan 27, 2014 5:25 pm

I received in the mail this morning this file from ESDC. I contains all LMO applications made by Canadian aircraft operators for importing Temporary Foreign Worker Pilots in 2013. Because I made the application in late Oct 2013, the applications received after that date by ESDC in 2013 do not appear.

(They inserted a few applications from before 2013 by mistake on the CD, so check the date and just ignore those)

In essence, several commercial operators, aircraft manufacturers, private operators, Training outfits, and the the Royal Canadian Air Force applied for hundreds of foreign pilots in 2013.

There are a bunch of Helicopter Operators that imported helicopter pilots
Many crop dusting outfits imported crop dusting pilots.
CAE imported instructors
The RCAF imported British pilots
Sky Regional imported an Embraer 195 instructor (no 195 instructors in Canada I guess)
We are even importing low time instructors and bush pilots.....

It's time that Canadian pilots stood up for their rights and defended their jobs. For every TFW pilot admitted into Canada, one Canadian pilot was denied a job that was rightfully theirs.......

You can view the file yourselves..........

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/105 ... 202013.pdf
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Last edited by Gilles Hudicourt on Wed Jan 29, 2014 12:37 pm, edited 6 times in total.

Condorito
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Re: Temporary foreign pilots in 2013

Post by Condorito » Mon Jan 27, 2014 5:50 pm

Its the Canadian Way...
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ahramin
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Re: Temporary foreign pilots in 2013

Post by ahramin » Mon Jan 27, 2014 5:55 pm

How are they getting Canadian licences? Or are they? What about instructor ratings?
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Temporary foreign pilots in 2013

Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Mon Jan 27, 2014 6:47 pm

ahramin wrote:How are they getting Canadian licences? Or are they? What about instructor ratings?
Each case is different. Some get FLVCs. Some obtained Canadian Licences. In the case of flight instructors, some were probably foreign students at the flight school that the school decided to hire when they got their licences. In the case of the RAF pilots, the Defense Minister did some magic......
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Re: Temporary foreign pilots in 2013

Post by EPR » Mon Jan 27, 2014 6:53 pm

Really fustrating to hear this!
What can we do to fight this, can we sign a petition some where, is there a form letter we can sign and foreward to our MP's?
Keep up the good fight Gilles!
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Re: Temporary foreign pilots in 2013

Post by FICU » Mon Jan 27, 2014 6:54 pm

When did the RAF start operating P-3s? A few CAF LMOs are for RAF pilots to fly the CP-140 because of a shortage of qualified CAF CP-140 pilots.
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Re: Temporary foreign pilots in 2013

Post by EPR » Mon Jan 27, 2014 7:35 pm

Interesting, $135.000 + for a Bombardier C-series test pilot.
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Re: Temporary foreign pilots in 2013

Post by davecessna » Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:11 pm

Gilles Hudicourt wrote: CAE imported instructors
I won't take a stand on my company's practices, but I do believe the information may come from instructors hired to set up our on-location training centers. I've met many of the test pilots/instructors here and they are all Canadian as far as I know.

I will admit I don't know much, however :)
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Temporary foreign pilots in 2013

Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:23 pm

Nor do I claim that all LMO application are unfounded. There are some cases when it is justified. But they are few and far between.
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Re: Temporary foreign pilots in 2013

Post by AuxBatOn » Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:28 pm

Gilles,

We do not need canadian licenses to fly a military aircraft. No magic involved.
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Re: Temporary foreign pilots in 2013

Post by co-joe » Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:33 pm

I'd bet the RAF pilot hiring has to do with the recent renewal of the british forces training contract for suffield. Just a guess but they just re-signed that deal so if a few limey pilots working here greases that wheel enough for a multi year multi million dollar contract, I'm on board.

What does CAE do in Canada? They're huge in the US, do they have sims or manufacturing here?

At any rate the minister of forced labour Lisa Raitt is the one who controls that isn't she? ...and we all know she hates pilots.
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Temporary foreign pilots in 2013

Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:00 pm

AuxBatOn wrote:Gilles,

We do not need canadian licenses to fly a military aircraft. No magic involved.
True. In this case, the magic was in by-passing the citizenship laws.
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Re: Temporary foreign pilots in 2013

Post by AuxBatOn » Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:07 pm

The MND has the power to enrol non-citizens.
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Temporary foreign pilots in 2013

Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:10 pm

EPR wrote:Really fustrating to hear this!
What can we do to fight this, can we sign a petition some where, is there a form letter we can sign and foreward to our MP's?
Keep up the good fight Gilles!
ALPA made a call to arms in early 2012, asking everyone to write to their MPs about the foreign pilots. Many pilots did.

We then did the petition in May-June 2012 to Immigration Canada. Thanks to many readers here we gathered 2452 signatures. I do not know what effect it had but CIC no longer recognizes wet-leases overseas as counting towards Reciprocity Work Permits.

We later did the form letter to Transport Canada with regards to FLVCs. That had zero effect as far as FLVCs go. Transport Canada did coordinate some meetings with CIC, ESDC and the CTA after that. I like to think that the letters they received has some effect. But TC still hands out FLVCs to foreign pilot for revenue commercial flying like they were candy in a box.....

A campaign against LMOs to ESDC has not been tried yet. Would it have any effect ? I'm not certain I have the energy for this anymore.
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Re: Temporary foreign pilots in 2013

Post by davecessna » Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:41 pm

co-joe wrote:I'd bet the RAF pilot hiring has to do with the recent renewal of the british forces training contract for suffield. Just a guess but they just re-signed that deal so if a few limey pilots working here greases that wheel enough for a multi year multi million dollar contract, I'm on board.

What does CAE do in Canada? They're huge in the US, do they have sims or manufacturing here?

At any rate the minister of forced labour Lisa Raitt is the one who controls that isn't she? ...and we all know she hates pilots.
CAE stands for Canadian Aviation Electronics. We are based here in Montreal, along the aerospace strip on Cote-de-Liesse. And yes, our manufacturing is still here. We are partnered with Air Canada and co-run the training center in Toronto from what I understand. We're delivering those brand spanking new 787 sims to them soon (what a neat looking cockpit, I must say). We have about 10,000 jobs here in Montreal. We are also partnered with the RCAF for training purposes too.

CAE USA is an extension that allows us access to US classified (mostly military) projects.

http://www.cae.com
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Re: Temporary foreign pilots in 2013

Post by Mr. T » Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:14 pm

Gilles Hudicourt wrote:
EPR wrote:
A campaign against LMOs to ESDC has not been tried yet. Would it have any effect ? I'm not certain I have the energy for this anymore.
I think you have done a lot for our profession Gilles, and believe no doubt that you've exhausted yourself. Thank you for what you've done already thus far. Even though it may appear to fall on deaf ears, it isn't.

Unfortunately, many 'professional' pilots, rather complain on a public forum anonymously, rather than help to fix the problem, with affirmative action or otherwise.

There is a quote by an old Irish guy that once said,

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

In todays world, that is becoming all to true in politics, aviation, or otherwise.
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Temporary foreign pilots in 2013

Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Tue Jan 28, 2014 12:42 am

AuxBatOn wrote:The MND has the power to enrol non-citizens.
Which, in the case of Military Pilots, he always had but had not used since.............ever ?

The law says that to be a RCAF pilot (an officer really) one needs to be Canadian. Even legal residents need not apply. The law also says the MND can overrule that law.
Those that get LMOs are not even legal residents of this country. They are Temporary Foreign Workers. We have TFWs flying our military aircraft because the Government thinks they can save a few buck hiring these already trained foreign military pilots instead of hiring and training young Canadians.

The next step is to hire TFW Members of Parliament and Senators too. I'm certain we could save a few dollars going that route. Actually, we should begin with a TFW Director of Civil Aviation.
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Re: Temporary foreign pilots in 2013

Post by AuxBatOn » Tue Jan 28, 2014 12:44 am

So, no law was broken?
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Temporary foreign pilots in 2013

Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Tue Jan 28, 2014 12:46 am

AuxBatOn wrote:So, no law was broken?
I don't think so in this case...... but it doesn't make it right...
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Re: Temporary foreign pilots in 2013

Post by ahramin » Tue Jan 28, 2014 12:48 am

Gilles, in the case of the military pilots am I correct in saying that there is nothing illegal about the way it was done? I mean it's pretty clear that the LVCs and LMOs are not legal according to the laws and guidance that govern them, but is there anything illegal about the way foreign military pilots are brought in? And is there anything different about the way this is currently being done compared to previous decades? As far as I know there has always been an exchange of Air Force pilots between Canada/US/Britain/others.
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Re: Temporary foreign pilots in 2013

Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:13 am

ahramin wrote:Gilles, in the case of the military pilots am I correct in saying that there is nothing illegal about the way it was done? I mean it's pretty clear that the LVCs and LMOs are not legal according to the laws and guidance that govern them, but is there anything illegal about the way foreign military pilots are brought in? And is there anything different about the way this is currently being done compared to previous decades? As far as I know there has always been an exchange of Air Force pilots between Canada/US/Britain/others.
Wait, there are two issues here. The fact that the RCAF pilots jobs were given to non citizens is allowed by the law. The Minister can allow it like I said. It's wrong but legal.

The LMO aspect of the thing is illegal in my view. To have an LMO approved, one must demonstrate that there are no qualified Canadians for the job. They must advertise for the position to demonstrate that they were unable to find qualified Canadian applicants.

Here is what the ad might look like on AvCanada:

"The RCAF is looking for pilots. Requirements: must have military background, be under 35, have at least 500 hours as PIC on supersonic jets operated by a NATO Member, must have flown one in the past 24 months"

How many Canadian applicants would qualify ? None, right, unless they were themselves recent ex RCAF pilots. So then the RCAF is cleared to employ those foreign pilots since the RCAF demonstrated that there are no qualified applicants in Canada. If this is legal, than soon, all RCAF pilots will be Czechs, Slovaks, Polish, British, Italian, Spanish, Latvian and from Malta.

In the same line of thought, if Air Canada, Westjet and all the other Canadian airlines began advertising for pilot position but asked as a pre-requisite that all applicants be already type rated and current on the type they operate, that would open the door for ALL commercial pilots in Canada to be TFWs.

So is it legal what they did ? You tell me.

The RCAF, as far as I am concerned, acted like Sunwing and the MND acted like Martin Eley, the DGAC at TC when he blindly gave all these foreign pilots FLVCs the regulations did not allow.

Edit: The exchanges were different. "Exchange" is the key word. A bit like "reciprocity". The pilots went to each others country to gain experience and learn the others' ways to learn to work together in cases they ever went to war together. But the exchange pilots remained at the employ of their respective Air Forces. The were there for a stage, period and often it was on a exchange basis. They were not taking anyone's job. They were not killing's a local kids' chance of making it in the RCAF.
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Re: Temporary foreign pilots in 2013

Post by TheCheez » Tue Jan 28, 2014 3:50 am

I don't know specifically abut the ones in your document, but I do work alongside some current and former RAF guys at an RCAF squadron. This is just the way that I understand their situations:

Some are here temporarily, are not RCAF officers nor Canadian citizens. It's a similar arrangement to exchange pilots except we did not reciprocate. They're RAF pilots and report to the UK for big picture stuff: promotions etc. They are highly qualified and brought a level of knowledge/experience that simply didn't exist in Canada at the time but was in surplus in the UK.

A very small number sought citizenship and enrolled as RCAF officers. Based on their flying and military experience they were given credit for equivalent RCAF qualifications ie they don't do basic training and some pilot courses. These guys were qualified enough to be desirable immigrants but not enough for the loaner program(they would have taken training time/jobs away from Canadians) and, of course, they wanted to put down roots here.

I can subjectively say that I don't think anything fishy happened with the guys that I'm familiar with.
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Re: Temporary foreign pilots in 2013

Post by Choppermech1986 » Wed Jan 29, 2014 12:22 am

It's a global industry isn't it?? There's thousands of Canadian pilots and engineers working all around the world, and not all of them have lots of hours/experience. Are you going to boycott Tim's because they hire so many foreigners? Where do you stop?

Do you ask all of the Canadian pilots working abroad to come back to Canada and let let the younger guys of the country they are currently working in have a go, regardless of the work ethic of the unemployed locals?

I simply don't understand the agenda you're pushing here, nor can I see how it will benefit the Canadian aviation industry in years to come.

Unfortunately, progress means you have to change and adapt. Best you get on with it.
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Re: Temporary foreign pilots in 2013

Post by ahramin » Wed Jan 29, 2014 12:49 am

Choppermech think a bit. It's a global world right? Policepersons, secretaries, welders, janitors, etc are all global jobs that exist in every part of the world. Why do we then have labour laws that say that you need the legal right to work in this country before someone can take these jobs? Why do we have immigration laws preventing anyone who wants to move to this country from just coming here and setting up? Why not just let anyone who wants to work here to move here and work at whatever wages they can get?
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Re: Temporary foreign pilots in 2013

Post by Colonel Sanders » Wed Jan 29, 2014 1:54 am

Does this mean that we have to take Justin Beiber
and Celine Dion back?
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