Canadian Electronic Charts and Airport information
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Canadian Electronic Charts and Airport information
Folk,
I work with a bunch of 'Pilot Geeks' who develop an excellent (and FREE) moving map aviation application called Avare:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/deta ... m.ds.avare
It is one of many moving map applications for Android tablets, and although I am biased, I think it is an excellent product and the developers goal is to keep it free - no adverts, no subscriptions, no costs. Yes it costs us time to maintain, but we intend to keep the application Open Source and invite other developers to join us.
Anyway, I am the only Canadian on the team, and it falls to me to maintain Canadian content (charts, airport info, etc). Of course, the application is 'for entertainment purposes only' and should NEVER be used as a primary navigation tool - it is not certified by an official body, although it is pretty stable and accurate!
We have US content in abundance: charts, airport plates, airport info etc - ALL FREE from the US government. But we have very little Canadian content, except where the US charts overlap Canadian borders.
I have contacted NavCanada and they were very helpful in answering my questions and informing me of what information is available. basically, they do offer various electronic information products including charts and CFS. They charge annual subscription fees to access this content and distribute it as part of third party applications such as Avare. They require the product company to have aviation liability insurance (the level depends on the information product package being subscribed to), and they have a single annual charge to the 3rd party product company.
Unfortunately, unless I sign a confidentiality agreement, I cannot discover this actual yearly subscription fee, but I can only guess that it is in the 'thousands of dollars' - of course, if I sign such an agreement I wouldn't be allowed to publicise the actual cost
Meanwhile, NavCanada has no plans to allow individual private user subscriptions, i.e. you could download Avare for free, and then subscribe directly (hundreds of dollars per year) with NavCanada to download content which Avare would use.
I am not a lobbyist, or politically minded, but am I the only Canadian Pilot who finds the current status quo 'laughable'? I am not trying to promote Avare, rather promote easier access to electronic Canadian Aviation content - this helps any moving map aviation application whether free or otherwise. My US co-developers constantly joke about whether Canada has heard of the computer!
To cut to the chase, Avare cannot offer Canadian content through its free application (who could?). Meanwhile, there is no way we can create the infrastructure, or absorb the costs to offer Canadian content through subscriptions, and we really don't want to make Avare into a commercial product.
Is there anything that can be done to improve the status quo?
Thoughts, suggestions, disagreements?
Roger
I work with a bunch of 'Pilot Geeks' who develop an excellent (and FREE) moving map aviation application called Avare:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/deta ... m.ds.avare
It is one of many moving map applications for Android tablets, and although I am biased, I think it is an excellent product and the developers goal is to keep it free - no adverts, no subscriptions, no costs. Yes it costs us time to maintain, but we intend to keep the application Open Source and invite other developers to join us.
Anyway, I am the only Canadian on the team, and it falls to me to maintain Canadian content (charts, airport info, etc). Of course, the application is 'for entertainment purposes only' and should NEVER be used as a primary navigation tool - it is not certified by an official body, although it is pretty stable and accurate!
We have US content in abundance: charts, airport plates, airport info etc - ALL FREE from the US government. But we have very little Canadian content, except where the US charts overlap Canadian borders.
I have contacted NavCanada and they were very helpful in answering my questions and informing me of what information is available. basically, they do offer various electronic information products including charts and CFS. They charge annual subscription fees to access this content and distribute it as part of third party applications such as Avare. They require the product company to have aviation liability insurance (the level depends on the information product package being subscribed to), and they have a single annual charge to the 3rd party product company.
Unfortunately, unless I sign a confidentiality agreement, I cannot discover this actual yearly subscription fee, but I can only guess that it is in the 'thousands of dollars' - of course, if I sign such an agreement I wouldn't be allowed to publicise the actual cost
Meanwhile, NavCanada has no plans to allow individual private user subscriptions, i.e. you could download Avare for free, and then subscribe directly (hundreds of dollars per year) with NavCanada to download content which Avare would use.
I am not a lobbyist, or politically minded, but am I the only Canadian Pilot who finds the current status quo 'laughable'? I am not trying to promote Avare, rather promote easier access to electronic Canadian Aviation content - this helps any moving map aviation application whether free or otherwise. My US co-developers constantly joke about whether Canada has heard of the computer!
To cut to the chase, Avare cannot offer Canadian content through its free application (who could?). Meanwhile, there is no way we can create the infrastructure, or absorb the costs to offer Canadian content through subscriptions, and we really don't want to make Avare into a commercial product.
Is there anything that can be done to improve the status quo?
Thoughts, suggestions, disagreements?
Roger
Re: Canadian Electronic Charts and Airport information
Yes, Get Foreflight for IPad or Iphone. It has the CFS, terminal procedures, IFR HI and LO charts and VNC charts for Canada, updated regularly.rspall wrote:Folk,
... Is there anything that can be done to improve the status quo? ...
Roger
Re: Canadian Electronic Charts and Airport information
Joking aside, doesn't it bother you that this is the only application that offers Canadian content, and it is big bucks.
I won't bother starting an IOS versus Android war, but the amount of development time and effort we have put into Avare could have purchased us all many iPad's and Foreflight subscriptions
As an individual, I don't have a problem paying for Canadian charts / content, we just can't afford to do it with a free application! Meanwhile, US content is free.
It feels like NavCanada has a monopoly on Aviation charts / Airport information. Meanwhile, doesn't our Canadian government (Transport Canada) provide them all of the information on which this is based?
BTW: Just curious whether the Foreflight Canada application is accepted by Transport Canada as a replacement for Paper maps or certified installed aircraft GPS? What happens if you are using Foreflight Canada and you run into a tower that wasn't shown on their maps?
I won't bother starting an IOS versus Android war, but the amount of development time and effort we have put into Avare could have purchased us all many iPad's and Foreflight subscriptions
As an individual, I don't have a problem paying for Canadian charts / content, we just can't afford to do it with a free application! Meanwhile, US content is free.
It feels like NavCanada has a monopoly on Aviation charts / Airport information. Meanwhile, doesn't our Canadian government (Transport Canada) provide them all of the information on which this is based?
BTW: Just curious whether the Foreflight Canada application is accepted by Transport Canada as a replacement for Paper maps or certified installed aircraft GPS? What happens if you are using Foreflight Canada and you run into a tower that wasn't shown on their maps?
Re: Canadian Electronic Charts and Airport information
No. And it isn't. Flightplanner has Canadian charts as well, but it is not as good as Foreflight.rspall wrote:Joking aside, doesn't it bother you that this is the only application that offers Canadian content, and it is big bucks.
Maybe, but the time to fight that issue passed long ago when much of flight info and NAVCAN support became fee for service
I won't bother starting an IOS versus Android war, but the amount of development time and effort we have put into Avare could have purchased us all many iPad's and Foreflight subscriptions
As an individual, I don't have a problem paying for Canadian charts / content, we just can't afford to do it with a free application! Meanwhile, US content is free.
It feels like NavCanada has a monopoly on Aviation charts / Airport information. Meanwhile, doesn't our Canadian government (Transport Canada) provide them all of the information on which this is based?
Not certain what TC's take on it is. When you start the app there is a NAVCAN disclaimer on its use. If you run into a tower a) you haven't been updating your Garmin obstacles data base, b) what happens would no longer be an issue for the person hitting the tower, and c) no one would know why you hit the tower since it wouldn't be investigated if it was a GA aircraft. What happens if I run into a tower with Avare?
BTW: Just curious whether the Foreflight Canada application is accepted by Transport Canada as a replacement for Paper maps or certified installed aircraft GPS? What happens if you are using Foreflight Canada and you run into a tower that wasn't shown on their maps?
Re: Canadian Electronic Charts and Airport information
The US data is free because it comes from government, and they have "free data" laws over there that makes it so.
Here NavCanada is a corporation, and is free to charge for their products as they see fit. I don't think it's unfair for them to charge for their work ... I find it a little more strange that they extend their liability protection to the apps, beyond just the data, however.
And I would find it very surprising if their data came from TC. The laws will require whomever builds a tower, deals with non-NavCanada navaids (Airports ILS' for example?), owns/operates an aerodrome, etc. to just deal with NavCanada directly. I mean some of the data was TC's at one point (decades ago), but at this point TC just contributes the data for whatever infrastructure they own (Are there TC-owned airports any more?) to NavCanada, just like your local airport corporation does.
I too am a fan of freedom and openness in these matters, but the only way I would see to solve your problem is to talk to NavCanada about their liability policy, and how an app like yours might be able to get an exception. Unless you're willing to pay lwayers, or find some to help you with your cause, I wouldn't hold my breath.
I mean, if you put the appropriate warnings in the right spots in BIG BOLD RED FLASHING LETTERS, you'd think you could convince someone that it's OK, if the app displays charts wrong and someone does a CFIT, neither you nor NavCanada will get sued.
That still leaves the cost of producing and maintaining the data, and charging for the data product itself. Good luck telling them they should just giveaway their product for free!
The best balance I thnk would be to have data that can be purchased, and then loaded onto any app that supports it. The data could be DRM-locked in a special file format for example, but with open APIs.
Anyone could then create apps (Commercial, free, or open source) that could ingest that data should the user choose to purchase it and load it onto the device.
I myself have had ambitions of writing an app like Avare ... might be fun to help out ... I toyed around with Android development a few years back in the days of 2.2 ... but I wanted a Canadian focus, and with the data issue, it just wasn't going to happen!
Here NavCanada is a corporation, and is free to charge for their products as they see fit. I don't think it's unfair for them to charge for their work ... I find it a little more strange that they extend their liability protection to the apps, beyond just the data, however.
And I would find it very surprising if their data came from TC. The laws will require whomever builds a tower, deals with non-NavCanada navaids (Airports ILS' for example?), owns/operates an aerodrome, etc. to just deal with NavCanada directly. I mean some of the data was TC's at one point (decades ago), but at this point TC just contributes the data for whatever infrastructure they own (Are there TC-owned airports any more?) to NavCanada, just like your local airport corporation does.
I too am a fan of freedom and openness in these matters, but the only way I would see to solve your problem is to talk to NavCanada about their liability policy, and how an app like yours might be able to get an exception. Unless you're willing to pay lwayers, or find some to help you with your cause, I wouldn't hold my breath.
I mean, if you put the appropriate warnings in the right spots in BIG BOLD RED FLASHING LETTERS, you'd think you could convince someone that it's OK, if the app displays charts wrong and someone does a CFIT, neither you nor NavCanada will get sued.
That still leaves the cost of producing and maintaining the data, and charging for the data product itself. Good luck telling them they should just giveaway their product for free!
The best balance I thnk would be to have data that can be purchased, and then loaded onto any app that supports it. The data could be DRM-locked in a special file format for example, but with open APIs.
Anyone could then create apps (Commercial, free, or open source) that could ingest that data should the user choose to purchase it and load it onto the device.
I myself have had ambitions of writing an app like Avare ... might be fun to help out ... I toyed around with Android development a few years back in the days of 2.2 ... but I wanted a Canadian focus, and with the data issue, it just wasn't going to happen!
Re: Canadian Electronic Charts and Airport information
The FAA announced a year or so ago that it was going to charge for digital charts, too.
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
Re: Canadian Electronic Charts and Airport information
Interesting thoughts / feedback.
I am definitely not against fees, but without competition, fees tend to be gouging! Are there any competitors to NavCanada? Meanwhile, I don't think I made myself clear about NavCanada's sources. I believe there are laws that require registration of towers, airports etc. But why does only NavCanada benefit from this information - is this information in the public domain elsewhere?
I agree that there isn't much that can be done, and I don't think I was flying when NavCanada was formed, so I wouldn't have anything good to contribute to that discussion back then.
I really like the idea about DRM to lock down user subscribable Charts / airport information which can somehow be locked to a device. Along with a software library to access these DRM locked charts, NavCanada could then charge individuals a yearly subscription. I wonder how difficult this would be?
I confess that I don't fully understand the liability issue. I am no lawyer, but I guess in Canada, it isn't enough to agree that a product will be used for 'entertainment purposes only' and never be relied upon for actual navigation purposes. The NavCanada representative I spoke to was very adamant that without liability insurance they wouldn't even consider doing business.
I will definitely take a look at FlightPlanner - I assume they must also have an agreement / contract with NavCanada. Do you have a web link for their software?
I probably sound like a complainer who just wants everything for free, far from it - although I am happy to donate my own time to support / develop the Avare application. I guess I want a 'leveller playing field', to encourage smaller companies and freeware. Having a big entry fee from NavCanada seems to dissuade from this.
Anyway, back to the real world
I am definitely not against fees, but without competition, fees tend to be gouging! Are there any competitors to NavCanada? Meanwhile, I don't think I made myself clear about NavCanada's sources. I believe there are laws that require registration of towers, airports etc. But why does only NavCanada benefit from this information - is this information in the public domain elsewhere?
I agree that there isn't much that can be done, and I don't think I was flying when NavCanada was formed, so I wouldn't have anything good to contribute to that discussion back then.
I really like the idea about DRM to lock down user subscribable Charts / airport information which can somehow be locked to a device. Along with a software library to access these DRM locked charts, NavCanada could then charge individuals a yearly subscription. I wonder how difficult this would be?
I confess that I don't fully understand the liability issue. I am no lawyer, but I guess in Canada, it isn't enough to agree that a product will be used for 'entertainment purposes only' and never be relied upon for actual navigation purposes. The NavCanada representative I spoke to was very adamant that without liability insurance they wouldn't even consider doing business.
I will definitely take a look at FlightPlanner - I assume they must also have an agreement / contract with NavCanada. Do you have a web link for their software?
I probably sound like a complainer who just wants everything for free, far from it - although I am happy to donate my own time to support / develop the Avare application. I guess I want a 'leveller playing field', to encourage smaller companies and freeware. Having a big entry fee from NavCanada seems to dissuade from this.
Anyway, back to the real world
Re: Canadian Electronic Charts and Airport information
The liability issue is the driver behind the cost of subscriptions. I spoke to someone at Fore Flight and they told me it almost didn't happen as the cost was high.rspall wrote:Interesting thoughts / feedback.
I am definitely not against fees, but without competition, fees tend to be gouging! Are there any competitors to NavCanada? Meanwhile, I don't think I made myself clear about NavCanada's sources. I believe there are laws that require registration of towers, airports etc. But why does only NavCanada benefit from this information - is this information in the public domain elsewhere?
I agree that there isn't much that can be done, and I don't think I was flying when NavCanada was formed, so I wouldn't have anything good to contribute to that discussion back then.
I really like the idea about DRM to lock down user subscribable Charts / airport information which can somehow be locked to a device. Along with a software library to access these DRM locked charts, NavCanada could then charge individuals a yearly subscription. I wonder how difficult this would be?
I confess that I don't fully understand the liability issue. I am no lawyer, but I guess in Canada, it isn't enough to agree that a product will be used for 'entertainment purposes only' and never be relied upon for actual navigation purposes. The NavCanada representative I spoke to was very adamant that without liability insurance they wouldn't even consider doing business.
I will definitely take a look at FlightPlanner - I assume they must also have an agreement / contract with NavCanada. Do you have a web link for their software?
I probably sound like a complainer who just wants everything for free, far from it - although I am happy to donate my own time to support / develop the Avare application. I guess I want a 'leveller playing field', to encourage smaller companies and freeware. Having a big entry fee from NavCanada seems to dissuade from this.
Anyway, back to the real world
Just Goggle Flight Planner and it will come up. My understanding is that they scan the charts and then link them to the software. I suspect they will not be around too much longer.
The competition is there from Jeppesen, Garmin, Air Nav Pro, etc who do their own "charts" but the pilot community in Canada that will buy this is very small and so their production costs are divided up amongst a small population. In General Aviation I suspect most flying is done within 200 or 300 miles of the home field negating the need for charts. Randomly ask a pilot to see their CFS and charts and you will be surprised as to how outdated they usually are. Before the electronic CFS (frankly I had access to this for a long time as the RCAF had them electronically for years [while at the same time NAVCAN said they weren'tyet available] - if you check you will see it is a joint pub). Whenever I got a new paper copy, I would leave my old one at our local flying club for students to use.
You didn't answer my question, what happens if I hit a tower using your program?
Re: Canadian Electronic Charts and Airport information
Sorry...
If you hit a tower with our App, it hurts just as much as it does with Foreflight!
Seriously, you should never be using our app for primary navigation. I was just wondering whether Foreflight is the same, i.e. 'for entertainment purposes', and not a replacement for paper maps. To be honest, what happens if you hit a 'non-existent tower' on a current NavCanada map, i.e. a tower which has been incorrectly identified on a current map?
I am guessing that flying VFR, the pilot is always responsible regardless of the map or electronic aid - of course I wouldn't want anyone to find out!
I just wondered whether Foreflight was approved by TC to replace paper map requirements for cross-countries.
You make a very good point about the real habits of most PPL's, which supports the reality of a very small Canadian moving map market.
For most purposes, the overlapping US maps probably serve over 50 percent of Canadian PPL's (me included as I am based in Toronto). However, it is difficult to get the Canadian airport data and plates for geo-referencing. I could scrape CFS PDF's and / or use sites like SkyVector, but none of the parties give permission! Adding the data / plates to Avare is trivial, but getting it is a challenge and maintaining its currency takes time!
As for technical specs for using Avare. It is for Android tablets version 2.2 and up. It works with internal or external GPS (I would personally recommend the latter as you can place the antenna nearer the window), and I would recommend at least a 7 inch screen. Full details are on the website.
If you hit a tower with our App, it hurts just as much as it does with Foreflight!
Seriously, you should never be using our app for primary navigation. I was just wondering whether Foreflight is the same, i.e. 'for entertainment purposes', and not a replacement for paper maps. To be honest, what happens if you hit a 'non-existent tower' on a current NavCanada map, i.e. a tower which has been incorrectly identified on a current map?
I am guessing that flying VFR, the pilot is always responsible regardless of the map or electronic aid - of course I wouldn't want anyone to find out!
I just wondered whether Foreflight was approved by TC to replace paper map requirements for cross-countries.
You make a very good point about the real habits of most PPL's, which supports the reality of a very small Canadian moving map market.
For most purposes, the overlapping US maps probably serve over 50 percent of Canadian PPL's (me included as I am based in Toronto). However, it is difficult to get the Canadian airport data and plates for geo-referencing. I could scrape CFS PDF's and / or use sites like SkyVector, but none of the parties give permission! Adding the data / plates to Avare is trivial, but getting it is a challenge and maintaining its currency takes time!
As for technical specs for using Avare. It is for Android tablets version 2.2 and up. It works with internal or external GPS (I would personally recommend the latter as you can place the antenna nearer the window), and I would recommend at least a 7 inch screen. Full details are on the website.
Re: Canadian Electronic Charts and Airport information
According to Nav Can:
ELECTRONIC AERONAUTICAL DATA DISTRIBUTORS
ForeFlight
www.foreflight.com
Garmin www.garmin.com
Flight Plan
www.fltplan.com
AIRINC www.airinc.ca
Jeppesen www.jeppesen.com
This had come up at the Buttonville Flying Club and at the monthly TC safety seminars. My understanding is that it's legal to use it as a map, CAPGEN and CFS, but only the same way you use paper ones. Don't think you can try and use it to replace an IFR certified GPS.
ELECTRONIC AERONAUTICAL DATA DISTRIBUTORS
ForeFlight
www.foreflight.com
Garmin www.garmin.com
Flight Plan
www.fltplan.com
AIRINC www.airinc.ca
Jeppesen www.jeppesen.com
This had come up at the Buttonville Flying Club and at the monthly TC safety seminars. My understanding is that it's legal to use it as a map, CAPGEN and CFS, but only the same way you use paper ones. Don't think you can try and use it to replace an IFR certified GPS.
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Re: Canadian Electronic Charts and Airport information
I know a really nice great guy who is a glider pilot. Every year he digs through the Designated Airspace Handbook to produce files that work with soaring software and shares it with various clubs.
Inside a glider the CFS is 95% dead weight. All I really need is the 'dromes within 500 km.
There is OpenAIP, but I have no idea who puts in the information.
The NavCanada board is stacked with air carriers and surprise, surprise, NavCanada works very well for them. The rest of us get the crumbs.
Inside a glider the CFS is 95% dead weight. All I really need is the 'dromes within 500 km.
There is OpenAIP, but I have no idea who puts in the information.
The NavCanada board is stacked with air carriers and surprise, surprise, NavCanada works very well for them. The rest of us get the crumbs.
Re: Canadian Electronic Charts and Airport information
Yes- foreflight is approved for Vfr and IFR use to replace maps. I do print out any approach plates I may use on the trip though as a backup. I run foreflight on my iPad and iPhone for redundancy. It is by far the most all inclusive app for what it does- hi,lo, vnc, vta, plates, cfs, cap gen, e cap, was, plus you can have other documents added into it that are handy like the aim, legends, emergency checklists etc. Flight planning is simple and the most recent update added filing in Canada although I haven't tried that yet. Georeferenced charts "should" be available soon. I am not trying to sell foreflight to anyone, but for the yearly subscription I find it's worth it's weight in gold for all that can be done with it.rspall wrote:Sorry...
I just wondered whether Foreflight was approved by TC to replace paper map requirements for cross-countries.
You make a very good point about the real habits of most PPL's, which supports the reality of a very small Canadian moving map market.
For most purposes, the overlapping US maps probably serve over 50 percent of Canadian PPL's (me included as I am based in Toronto). However, it is difficult to get the Canadian airport data and plates for geo-referencing. I could scrape CFS PDF's and / or use sites like SkyVector, but none of the parties give permission! Adding the data / plates to Avare is trivial, but getting it is a challenge and maintaining its currency takes time!
As for technical specs for using Avare. It is for Android tablets version 2.2 and up. It works with internal or external GPS (I would personally recommend the latter as you can place the antenna nearer the window), and I would recommend at least a 7 inch screen. Full details are on the website.
Re: Canadian Electronic Charts and Airport information
My only issue is that it crashes sometimes on my older iPad, or at least that's the excuse I'm using with my wife to get a new iPad mini!Tips Up wrote:Yes- foreflight is approved for Vfr and IFR use to replace maps. I do print out any approach plates I may use on the trip though as a backup. I run foreflight on my iPad and iPhone for redundancy. It is by far the most all inclusive app for what it does- hi,lo, vnc, vta, plates, cfs, cap gen, e cap, was, plus you can have other documents added into it that are handy like the aim, legends, emergency checklists etc. Flight planning is simple and the most recent update added filing in Canada although I haven't tried that yet. Georeferenced charts "should" be available soon. I am not trying to sell foreflight to anyone, but for the yearly subscription I find it's worth it's weight in gold for all that can be done with it.rspall wrote:Sorry...
I just wondered whether Foreflight was approved by TC to replace paper map requirements for cross-countries.
You make a very good point about the real habits of most PPL's, which supports the reality of a very small Canadian moving map market.
For most purposes, the overlapping US maps probably serve over 50 percent of Canadian PPL's (me included as I am based in Toronto). However, it is difficult to get the Canadian airport data and plates for geo-referencing. I could scrape CFS PDF's and / or use sites like SkyVector, but none of the parties give permission! Adding the data / plates to Avare is trivial, but getting it is a challenge and maintaining its currency takes time!
As for technical specs for using Avare. It is for Android tablets version 2.2 and up. It works with internal or external GPS (I would personally recommend the latter as you can place the antenna nearer the window), and I would recommend at least a 7 inch screen. Full details are on the website.
Re: Canadian Electronic Charts and Airport information
Look in to using what data *is* freely available, to build your own maps. SkyVector.com does this. The basemap (land, terrain, etc) is freely available, as is the airspace information through the designated airspace handbook. There's no reason you'd need more than what it offers for VFR flight.
Also, take a look at what AirNavPro has done with OpenStreetmap data. ANP is what I use on my Nexus 5, it works great and gives me all of the information I need for VFR flight.
I've been lobbying COPA, Transport, and NavCanada for twenty years about making the data available in a more economical format. Last I checked, Foreflight was $150/year for the program, and $150/year for Canadian data. Oh, and it's iOS only, which means it doesn't help half of the population. What's ironic is that the data is all available digitally and has been since Transport ran the show. They made CD's for the military on a monthly basis with all the charts, CFS, etc. as PDF's.
I am willing to pay the same amount I do for paper charts, but i'm not paying for the entire country's worth every year. I only need one or two most of the time, I couldn't care less what the VNC or VTA covering NFLD looks like. And I want to be able to view it on my desktop computer as well as my phone and my tablet. Preferably with georeference data when on the phone/tablet, but not mandatory.
CFS data is available digitally, and free. If you haven't found it yet, send me a PM and i'll hook you up.
Also, take a look at what AirNavPro has done with OpenStreetmap data. ANP is what I use on my Nexus 5, it works great and gives me all of the information I need for VFR flight.
I've been lobbying COPA, Transport, and NavCanada for twenty years about making the data available in a more economical format. Last I checked, Foreflight was $150/year for the program, and $150/year for Canadian data. Oh, and it's iOS only, which means it doesn't help half of the population. What's ironic is that the data is all available digitally and has been since Transport ran the show. They made CD's for the military on a monthly basis with all the charts, CFS, etc. as PDF's.
I am willing to pay the same amount I do for paper charts, but i'm not paying for the entire country's worth every year. I only need one or two most of the time, I couldn't care less what the VNC or VTA covering NFLD looks like. And I want to be able to view it on my desktop computer as well as my phone and my tablet. Preferably with georeference data when on the phone/tablet, but not mandatory.
CFS data is available digitally, and free. If you haven't found it yet, send me a PM and i'll hook you up.
Re: Canadian Electronic Charts and Airport information
AirNavPro is pretty good. There are some errors in the controlled airspace around Vancouver that you need to watch for (around Sechelt), which they told me they would fix, but they haven't yet. Also I think the Texada restricted area is missing.
I noticed recently that Skyvector seems to have a slightly more accurate map than Airnavpro in terms of airspace. It would be interesting to see where they get their database from.
I noticed recently that Skyvector seems to have a slightly more accurate map than Airnavpro in terms of airspace. It would be interesting to see where they get their database from.
Re: Canadian Electronic Charts and Airport information
re: DRM
I don't imagine NavCanada would take this on on their own. For such a system to work, you'd need multiple chart/data producers to play ball, so you know the FAA, the Europeans, etc. Users would be rightfully pissed if there was fragmentation in that space, with every supplier having different methods.
re: Data
The big vendors like Jeppesen have it and do it somehow. I image there's a world of commercial data providers/consumers, but it's all proprietary and hidden. There's the idea of crowd sourcing the data, as some sites have attempted, but in Canada at least, there's just isn't the critical mass to do it. I too had had the idea of parsing the DAH and creating a usable database ... but again, when I thought of the effort vs. reward balance, I just didn't see it as being worthwhile ... but of course that's just me, maybe someone else would feel differently.
Although that openaip looks pretty nice, never saw that one before!
I used to work for NRCan back when they did aero maps ... I had access to the whole back-end. They had everything in PDF format, it was great ... but then NavCanada ceased that relationship and brought the whole map making business in house ... so sad.
Back to DRM ... in a previous life I was active in the geosptial world and open standards ... look what I found:
http://www.opengeospatial.org/standards/as/geodrmrm
This could be a starting point for a geodrm implementation of some kind ....
I don't imagine NavCanada would take this on on their own. For such a system to work, you'd need multiple chart/data producers to play ball, so you know the FAA, the Europeans, etc. Users would be rightfully pissed if there was fragmentation in that space, with every supplier having different methods.
re: Data
The big vendors like Jeppesen have it and do it somehow. I image there's a world of commercial data providers/consumers, but it's all proprietary and hidden. There's the idea of crowd sourcing the data, as some sites have attempted, but in Canada at least, there's just isn't the critical mass to do it. I too had had the idea of parsing the DAH and creating a usable database ... but again, when I thought of the effort vs. reward balance, I just didn't see it as being worthwhile ... but of course that's just me, maybe someone else would feel differently.
Although that openaip looks pretty nice, never saw that one before!
I used to work for NRCan back when they did aero maps ... I had access to the whole back-end. They had everything in PDF format, it was great ... but then NavCanada ceased that relationship and brought the whole map making business in house ... so sad.
Back to DRM ... in a previous life I was active in the geosptial world and open standards ... look what I found:
http://www.opengeospatial.org/standards/as/geodrmrm
This could be a starting point for a geodrm implementation of some kind ....
Re: Canadian Electronic Charts and Airport information
They both get their airspace from the Designated Airspace Handbook, via a script that parses the handbook and turns it into useful data. Skyvector is one guy, so he's pretty responsive to requests. ANP covers the planet, and they get a *lot* of feedback from the field. It took half a dozen emails to explain the error that used to exist near Langley, and then once they saw what I was seeing it took them another update cycle to correct it... About two months, if I recall?CpnCrunch wrote:I noticed recently that Skyvector seems to have a slightly more accurate map than Airnavpro in terms of airspace. It would be interesting to see where they get their database from.
Re: Canadian Electronic Charts and Airport information
Maybe some of you guys that know the costs by heart could please do a basic summery of the comparison of the costs of the faa vs nav canada. Of particular interest is of charts (electronic or not) and other associated costs that burden the general Aviation sector.
I would like something I could could send to my MP or pertinent minister, in regards to the what some may consider out of line costs associated with a" not for profit business. "
I would like something I could could send to my MP or pertinent minister, in regards to the what some may consider out of line costs associated with a" not for profit business. "
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Re: Canadian Electronic Charts and Airport information
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Last edited by Arctic.West on Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Canadian Electronic Charts and Airport information
It's hard to compare the US to Canada in this regard... Keep in mind the US has something like 10x the number of pilots than we do. That makes the economy of scale much greater than in Canada. It's essentially the reason we have *one* CFS, vs. regional booklets. The number of people in each region who would buy them isn't large enough to get the volume up to the point that it would be economical.sky_hi wrote:Maybe some of you guys that know the costs by heart could please do a basic summery of the comparison of the costs of the faa vs nav canada. Of particular interest is of charts (electronic or not) and other associated costs that burden the general Aviation sector.
NavCanada, when pushed, still uses that argument as the reason they can't distribute the digital content piecemeal. It sounds good to someone who doesn't know anything about data management and distribution. Once the data is there, distributing it piecemeal or en masse doesn't matter. It's all the same. In fact, distributing smaller pieces is even cheaper overall, due to the lower bandwidth requirements.