Future Airline Pilots

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ahramin
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Future Airline Pilots

Post by ahramin »

Boeing’s massive presence at AirVenture 2014 was explained today when it announced a worldwide ab initio airline pilot training program that will qualify pilots to go directly into the right seat of airliners in virtually every country of the world except the U.S. Two weeks ago, Boeing released its widely respected market projections and trending 20-year outlook for the airline world. It estimated a need for 533,000 new pilots and 548,000 new aircraft maintenance technicians—with the greatest demand in the Asia-Pacific and Middle Eastern markets. Approximately 17 percent of the demand is expected to be in North America. Boeing has historically worked closely with its airline customers to provide support services, including parts, information and flight training. Now, with its subsidiary company Jeppesen, it will undertake ab initio airline pilot training to provide a supply of pilots with an “Airline Transport Pilot License” (certificate in the U.S.) and a Boeing type rating who “will be ready to move into the first officer’s seat,” according to Sherry Carbary, vice president of flight services.

Boeing’s ab initio training program is divided into two parts. The first, run by Jeppesen, will take an applicant—referred to as a cadet—who must hold a first-class medical at the time of application, and put her or him through a screening process. Those who pass will go through 12-18 months of flight training, resulting in, according to David Wright, director of general aviation training, an Airline Transport Pilot License. The second phase involves the cadet going to a Boeing facility for another two months of training where she or he gets a first exposure to a full-motion jet simulator, and that will result in a type rating in a Boeing jet. Wright said that cadets will come out of the $100,000-$150,000 program with 200-250 hours of flying time and will be ready to go into the right seat of an airliner—in virtually every country except the United States. Currently, in the U.S., an applicant must, with some exceptions, have 1500 hours of flying time to obtain an ATP and must have completed a training course that includes time in a full-motion flight simulator before even taking the ATP written exam. Carbury and Wright did not explain how the program will work in the U.S., as graduates with 200-250 hours cannot obtain an ATP with that experience level. They did say that they anticipate that U.S. program graduates will be hired into the program as flight instructors to build flying time to the 1500-hour mark.
http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/Bo ... 484-1.html

I know everyone here doesn't like it, but it is the way things are going to be. We'd best get used to it, and to the accidents that come with it.
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esp803

Re: Future Airline Pilots

Post by esp803 »

$150,000..... :shock:

That's enough for me to get a navajo for Chisel Air AND pay the pilot for 5 years....

E
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CpnCrunch
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Re: Future Airline Pilots

Post by CpnCrunch »

I didn't know you could get an ATPL with 200 hours. Or are they talking about a frozen ATPL? I'm pretty sure that doesn't exist in Canada either.

Anyway, it seems to work pretty well in Europe and I don't think boeings are falling out of the sky. Admittedly they usually put the newbies on turboprops rather than jets.
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AWOS
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Re: Future Airline Pilots

Post by AWOS »

I'd like to see a Canadian kid try this, spending $150,000, thinking that it will get him directly into the right seat of a 737.
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timel
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Re: Future Airline Pilots

Post by timel »

CpnCrunch wrote:I didn't know you could get an ATPL with 200 hours. Or are they talking about a frozen ATPL? I'm pretty sure that doesn't exist in Canada either.

Anyway, it seems to work pretty well in Europe and I don't think boeings are falling out of the sky. Admittedly they usually put the newbies on turboprops rather than jets.
Air France RIO-Paris : two copilots flying the aircraft, one pushing the stick one pulling while aircraft is stalling, they probably had great trainings. Right airbuses don't stall...

What probably makes the difference in many of those flights is an experienced captain. And experienced captains used to fly and have learned to fly properly. They are the only reason boeings don't fall from the sky.

I have talked to experience expat captains who have flown Asia a lot past 20 years and were flying 777 or 747 as single pilots, when things would get messy or complicated, I heard stories of copilots freezing or just leaving to the washrooms. And this guys are going left seat now.

In Canada it is not the same culture of aviation but that 1500hrs rule should apply here too. Even if we don't need it yet.
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Changes in Latitudes
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Re: Future Airline Pilots

Post by Changes in Latitudes »

AWOS wrote:I'd like to see a Canadian kid try this, spending $150,000, thinking that it will get him directly into the right seat of a 737.
They're using the Canadian kids to work the ramp at the Future Boeing Pilot Airline Academy. This may or not lead to the opportunity to pay the cash and take the training course.
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xchox
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Re: Future Airline Pilots

Post by xchox »

AWOS wrote:I'd like to see a Canadian kid try this, spending $150,000, thinking that it will get him directly into the right seat of a 737.
The bigger surprise would be a kid who spends that and does NOT get right seat on a 737.
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Re: Future Airline Pilots

Post by digits_ »

xchox wrote:
AWOS wrote:I'd like to see a Canadian kid try this, spending $150,000, thinking that it will get him directly into the right seat of a 737.
The bigger surprise would be a kid who spends that and does NOT get right seat on a 737.
Unfortunately, in Europe spending 150 000 EUR (!), getting a Boeing 737 or Airbus A320 typerating and not getting a right seat job is no surprise at all. It is extremely rare to pay for the typerating and to actually find an aviation job, especially in the Netherlands and surrounding countries. Unless you want to pay an extra 30k EUR to fly. In that case you will have a "job" for a year or two, after which you usually can start over again.
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Re: Future Airline Pilots

Post by timel »

The first, run by Jeppesen, will take an applicant—referred to as a cadet—who must hold a first-class medical at the time of application, and put her or him through a screening process. Those who pass will go through 12-18 months of flight training, resulting in, according to David Wright, director of general aviation training, an Airline Transport Pilot License.

Starting your career with 150k debts, painfull. I never tryed it, but if I would go to the bank asking for 150k to become a pilot they would probably laugh at my face. We are not speaking of food expenses and a place to sleep. Guess airbus should start their own too. Bombardier, Ambraer? Screw flight schools.

Pilots are doomed to go through a factory training? Does Boeing negotiate pilots conditions too?
This is not free market, this is pilot slavery program.
xchox wrote:
AWOS wrote:I'd like to see a Canadian kid try this, spending $150,000, thinking that it will get him directly into the right seat of a 737.
The bigger surprise would be a kid who spends that and does NOT get right seat on a 737.
+1
150k kinda helps keep your ass tight in an interview.


This is result of pilots not acting like professionals in the last decade, even Boeing is laughing at our faces.
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Re: Future Airline Pilots

Post by photofly »

Starting your career with 150k debts, painfull. I never tryed it, but if I would go to the bank asking for 150k to become a pilot they would probably laugh at my face.
Standard, in Europe.

Have a look at the Easyjet cadet programme: http://www.ctcwings.com/easyjet
The total funding requirement for the CTC WINGS easyJet MPL cadet course is £109,000.
That's nearly CDN$200k.


Wright said that cadets will come out of the $100,000-$150,000 program with 200-250 hours of flying time ... They did say that they anticipate that U.S. program graduates will be hired into the program as flight instructors to build flying time to the 1500-hour mark.
If the graduates of this programme are going to come out at 200hrs, and teach - in the same programme - until they have 1500 hours, they're going to need to teach (1500-200)/200 = 6.5 new cadets - each - to reach that target. Who are these 6.5 new cadets (who now have 200hrs) going to teach, to get to 1500hrs each themselves? The next generation is going need 42.25 new students, for each of the original cadets. And the generation after that, 276.25 new students.

Am I the only one to think this is all just some huge Ponzi scheme for flight hours? After 20 years they're going to need to enrol 134million new students for every one that started in the first year. I don't think even Boeing has that much optimism for the airline industry.
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Re: Future Airline Pilots

Post by boxcut »

Pilots are doomed to go through a factory training? Does Boeing negotiate pilots conditions too?
This is not free market, this is pilot slavery program.
Yeah, because working as a ramp monkey or CSA for near minimum wage for two to four years, then a first officer in a Baron making next to nothing isn't slavery...

The airline industry in Europe is doing fine with this style of training, and frankly, the US military and Canadian Air Force also operate the same way. It's only the little bush operations here, and the Regionals in the US that don't want to lose their source of cheap labour.
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timel
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Re: Future Airline Pilots

Post by timel »

boxcut wrote:
Pilots are doomed to go through a factory training? Does Boeing negotiate pilots conditions too?
This is not free market, this is pilot slavery program.
Yeah, because working as a ramp monkey or CSA for near minimum wage for two to four years, then a first officer in a Baron making next to nothing isn't slavery...

The airline industry in Europe is doing fine with this style of training, and frankly, the US military and Canadian Air Force also operate the same way. It's only the little bush operations here, and the Regionals in the US that don't want to lose their source of cheap labour.
Europe is using mostly cadets programs that cost nothing to pilots, but entitles them to the company. (Air France if you want to quit, you loose your pilot licence during the 8 first years I think if not more, the selection process is very tough. Militaries there are terms to respect as well).

To borrow 150k to get a job is a tough move to do, you better be sure you like it, and honnestly I think it will just make aviation not accessible to everyone anymore. Chineses who get trained in Canada, do it for free but have a 40 years bound agreement with their agencies.

Rampies is a way to make it there, you have pays every two weeks coming in your bank account and you end up flying an aircraft at some point, it doesn't make me cry. No one is forcing you to work for a**holes as well, and after a few years you get to choose what you really want to do and what/where you want to fly.
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boxcut
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Re: Future Airline Pilots

Post by boxcut »

after a few years you get to choose what you really want to do and what/where you want to fly.
Be a slave for a few years to earn your freedom! Seriously, our industry is messed up when people think this is acceptable.
Europe is using mostly cadets programs that cost nothing to pilots, but entitles them to the company. (Air France if you want to quit, you loose your pilot licence during the 8 first years I think if not more, the selection process is very tough. Militaries there are terms to respect as well
No cost to the pilot, work for a good employer, what's not to like about this model? Why don't we do that here? And who cares if the selection process is tough? That's kind of the point right?
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timel
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Re: Future Airline Pilots

Post by timel »

No cost to the pilot, work for a good employer, what's not to like about this model? Why don't we do that here? And who cares if the selection process is tough? That's kind of the point right?
First we do not have the same market at all. We need medevacs and we need northern transport.

Two, to make it up into prep school in a cadet program like air france you have to go to math school, and do a lot of math for one, two years and only do that. Than you make the exams and hope you will be the chosen one. Usually if you make it to prep school it is because you went to good private schools that daddy/mommy could afford.

So let's say you are good at writing, good at thinking but you hate math you cannot be a pilot?

It is called an elitist system, I rather accept a system where people work their asses off do make things happen if they want to.
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Re: Future Airline Pilots

Post by complexintentions »

Hmm recently completed a flight with an Emirati FO who came through the EK cadet program. The first and only airliner he has ever flown is the B777. He's 25.

And guess what? He was superb. He did a brilliant job, very, very sharp. Good decision-making, good handling skills, incredible systems knowledge. (Better than mine, although that's not exactly setting the bar very high.) Excellent support in the non-flying role. Eager to learn, respectful and willing to listen to whatever suggestions I threw at him. (It was not a training flight and I am not a trainer. Surely we should all be mentors when we are in a position to be one?)

No, he's not ready for command. And guess what? He won't be eligible for upgrade for quite a few more years. But in that time he will easily have the exposure to the situations, and gain that experience that will make him a more than capable commander for the operation for which he was hired to fly. On the side, he is studying for a Masters in Aviation Management.

The idea that cadet programs will automatically result in accidents is a conceit possessed by many who have zero idea of how these programs actually work.
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Re: Future Airline Pilots

Post by scopiton »

Usually if you make it to prep school it is because you went to good private schools that daddy/mommy could afford.
wrong. you have very good public schools in europe and specifically in france allowing you to get ready for prep school at a price a middle class family can afford.
I agree with the other part of your post.
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Re: Future Airline Pilots

Post by Cat Driver »

The idea that cadet programs will automatically result in accidents is a conceit possessed by many who have zero idea of how these programs actually work.
As time passes and the industry trains airline pilots from zero to qualified to fly as a crew member there will always be those who think the Canadian way is the best.

Having worked in flight training in Europe I agree with you that those who make it through the airline pilot training are excellent candidates for air crew.

Flying heavy jet airliners has very little in common with bush flying.
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Re: Future Airline Pilots

Post by digits_ »

timel wrote:
Europe is using mostly cadets programs that cost nothing to pilots
Wrong. These do exist, but are certainly not the norm. Most pilots, just like in Canada, pay about 75k - 125k for their training. And then mostly another 30k eur for a typerating.

The ones that manage to get into a cadet program are the lucky few.
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
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-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
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Re: Future Airline Pilots

Post by trey kule »

Cat....I think you nailed it. There is so very little connection it is scary. But there is a connection. And it is an important one.

But , sadly I see so many resumes from these young aviators who post on their resume that they have 300 hrs flight, 150 sim, Boeing or airbus rating, a frozen ATPL..(though it is surprising how many seem to forget the frozen part on their resume!). ....and no job...

I truly do feel sorry for them. They bought into the big lie..at least the flight colleges in Canada don't relieve their students of this much money.
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Last edited by trey kule on Sat Aug 02, 2014 9:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Future Airline Pilots

Post by Cat Driver »

Yes for sure the industry really takes advantage of young people who have a dream to fly for the airlines.

Maybe in some small way these forums will prevent a few from being taken advantage of by reading what we post.

Eventually airline training will be a stand alone training industry that will take them from zero to the right seat in a fair and humane manner, instead of the soul destroying screwing some of these people suffer under today's system.
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