YYZ pilot questions

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Dockjock
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YYZ pilot questions

Post by Dockjock »

In no particular order.

-Why isn't 06R/24L being used? It's been a month, it feels like. It just sits there gathering dust.
-Why is descent clearance on LINNG arrival almost always late ie. Impossible to meet downwind constraints? We ask for constraints deleted, answer is always yes. Shouldn't they just be removed (permanently?)
-Why am I sometimes (frequently) assigned a runway not listed on ATIS ie. Info A, Landing 05 departing 06L..."hi Toronto we have info A" "A is current, expect ILS 06L" um ok bud
-why doe ATIS not publish until :10 (or more) after the hour. Why is ATIS so rarely representative of what controllers are using for airport config? Swap ends, runways in use etc
-if a constraint is published, else being equal, we plan to meet it ie. 250kts speed. You don't need to say "slow to 250" when we're 8 NM from it. We got it!

On a positive note, visual departures are great. Keep it up! Thanks
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cdnpilot77
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Re: YYZ pilot questions

Post by cdnpilot77 »

That's a whole lot of negativity. The boogeyman is just out to get you I guess?

On the flip side, listened to an Air Canada pilot unnecessarily condescending to an arrivals controller on Monday.

I find the YYZ controllers quite good at helping us out as best they can. We always try to get the North runway to be closer to parking but sometimes it just can't happen. Unlike our AC friend the other day, we don't flex our muscles and bang our chests to get what we want, it's just not worth it.

All controllers have their comforts just like we do, does it really hurt your day for a reminder to slow to 250 at LINNG? It might if you forget or don't quite get slowed in time. Chances are they're telling you because it will really F things up if you are faster (or slower) and I'm betting a lot of airplanes "forget"
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PostmasterGeneral
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Re: YYZ pilot questions

Post by PostmasterGeneral »

Not YYZ specific, but I wish Canada in general would adopt the US procedure of "descend via the STAR." We have everything published, the altitudes and speeds make sense, and the FMS has it all onboard already.

Not only does it keep radio chatter down, it keeps everyone on the same page whether you fly a Q400 or a 747.
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wordstwice
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Re: YYZ pilot questions

Post by wordstwice »

Dockjock....you come off sounded like you have a chip on your shoulder against YYZ controllers.

YYZ Controllers (both in tower and in Terminal) work under rules given to them by the employer and regulator while being constantly understaffed.

06R/24L can only be used when traffic demands it and there are enough personnel available (see above)

The ATIS is posted 10 minutes after the hour because it has to include the newest METAR which doesn't come until after the hour anyways.

The runways in use are being changed to meet demand, construction/repairs, and staffing throughout the day. The ATIS is updated as quickly as possible but you will find yourself given a runway not advertised if you arrive during a time when the configuration is being changed. If you program and then brief a runway based on the ATIS then be prepared to do it again.

All the altitude and speed restrictions were created by Nav Canada with enormous input from the users-they quite often don't work exactly as the situation demands but quite often do. It is would impossible to create restrictions on a STAR that would be perfect for all scenarios and someone somewhere will always complain about it.

I suggest you be a little more patient with the guys and gals at YYZ, they do the best they can under their work environment with little to no thanks for what they put up with in a day.

Finally, if it wasn't your intent to come off so negative than I apologize for getting the wrong impression.
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ZBBYLW
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Re: YYZ pilot questions

Post by ZBBYLW »

Just curious, is there anything being done to try and fix some of the rules in place? It does seem that in the US very often the controllers do get to run a bit looser with the rules. It definitely quickens everything up when VMC is present.

In Canada it seems that ATC and pilots alike do not/hesitate to even call the field in sight because IFR seperation will still be issued. Where in the US as soon as you have the field in sight and your traffic you have the green light to carve it in tighter as traffic separation is now your issue. From my uninformed pilot chair, it seems that visual approaches in YYZ only help ATC with altitudes with planes intercepting different locs and not allowing you to reduce the seperation (even when no departing traffic is ready to go).

One of my biggest pet peeves is the 170 to the FAF ATC call. Why can this not be printed on the approach plates. It wastes a lot of air time when you think of it being said for every plane. Have it a normal procedure that is the default, if something else is required say "speed your discretion" or "hold 200 until advised" or "slow to final approach speed now". It seems like an easy way to clear the airwaves and perhaps when Air China or Hainan Airlines comes in they can be reminded.

What is the status of 05R/23L? Will Nav Canada staff the tower cab enough to have it be any benefit? I find the operation with all 3 running is good, with enough staffing you could almost have 06R/24L the default runway if you are landing on the south side and an offer to side step if there are no departures, which is pretty common down in the states.

I know it's not the individual controllers that are responsible but it does seem YYZ is one of the most conservative airports around (even more so than other (albeit quieter) Canadian airports such as YVR/YUL/YYC(though YYC terminal and ZEG centre probably should coordinate a bit better)) and I hope there is some pressure to allow the YYZ controllers to "do some more controlling" as it would speed things up and unbound them from some of the rules they are currently bound by.
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ZBBYLW
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Re: YYZ pilot questions

Post by ZBBYLW »

Dockjock wrote:In no particular order.

-Why isn't 06R/24L being used? It's been a month, it feels like. It just sits there gathering dust.
-Why is descent clearance on LINNG arrival almost always late ie. Impossible to meet downwind constraints? We ask for constraints deleted, answer is always yes. Shouldn't they just be removed (permanently?)
-Why am I sometimes (frequently) assigned a runway not listed on ATIS ie. Info A, Landing 05 departing 06L..."hi Toronto we have info A" "A is current, expect ILS 06L" um ok bud
-why doe ATIS not publish until :10 (or more) after the hour. Why is ATIS so rarely representative of what controllers are using for airport config? Swap ends, runways in use etc
-if a constraint is published, else being equal, we plan to meet it ie. 250kts speed. You don't need to say "slow to 250" when we're 8 NM from it. We got it!

On a positive note, visual departures are great. Keep it up! Thanks
From a fellow pilot perspective.

Descent via LINNG question, but your TCAS on below I am sure you'll see the reason. The STARS and SIDS intersect there - departures are held at 7, arrivals held at 8. Also if you don't do it, slow your VS down, some guys rocket up or down to the assigned altitudes triggering TCAS TAs. Airmanship sometimes gets forgotten.
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Dockjock
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Re: YYZ pilot questions

Post by Dockjock »

Agreed on the STARS postmaster, and agreed on the reasons they don't do this at YYZ, ZBBYLW. Now the question is, why is the entire thing even structured this way, putting arrivals and departures in conflict unless the controller intervenes and cancels the published restrictions? Brutal. I've heard the excuse that NavCanada consulted with airlines on the procedures but did they ever run a simulation? Clearly, the airspace doesn't work.

A major runway isn't being used at the largest and busiest airport in Canada because...staffing? That's crazy. Hire some people, it's been like that for far too long. Airlines are wasting money waiting for takeoff, getting vectored, and increasing taxi times.

The YYZ ATIS is basically a joke now. When it's out, it's stale because YYZ changes their configuration so frequently. I'm sure NavCanada management think they are being flexible and responsive, based on as someone above stated, demand, staffing and so forth. But the result to pilots is lots of heads-down programming and briefing in the terminal area. We like to play the guessing game as to which runway we will be assigned, and you're not allowed to pick one on the ATIS. Ha! Once recently it advertised 15R! Admiral Akbar knows, ITS A TRAP. Light wind, 3pm, you could literally be assigned anything. No point in preparing a plan because you're going to have to delete it 30NM from landing and start over.
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kevenv
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Re: YYZ pilot questions

Post by kevenv »

Dockjock wrote:Agreed on the STARS postmaster, and agreed on the reasons they don't do this at YYZ, ZBBYLW. Now the question is, why is the entire thing even structured this way, putting arrivals and departures in conflict unless the controller intervenes and cancels the published restrictions? Brutal. I've heard the excuse that NavCanada consulted with airlines on the procedures but did they ever run a simulation? Clearly, the airspace doesn't work.

A major runway isn't being used at the largest and busiest airport in Canada because...staffing? That's crazy. Hire some people, it's been like that for far too long. Airlines are wasting money waiting for takeoff, getting vectored, and increasing taxi times.

The YYZ ATIS is basically a joke now. When it's out, it's stale because YYZ changes their configuration so frequently. I'm sure NavCanada management think they are being flexible and responsive, based on as someone above stated, demand, staffing and so forth. But the result to pilots is lots of heads-down programming and briefing in the terminal area. We like to play the guessing game as to which runway we will be assigned, and you're not allowed to pick one on the ATIS. Ha! Once recently it advertised 15R! Admiral Akbar knows, ITS A TRAP. Light wind, 3pm, you could literally be assigned anything. No point in preparing a plan because you're going to have to delete it 30NM from landing and start over.
Without commenting on your observations, I have to ask; Have you ever picked up the phone and called the shift manager with your complaints? You will not change a thing complaining here. Trust me, when a pilot takes the time to phone the shift manager, they are out of the office as soon as they hang up to find out what is going on.
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TheSteamingPile
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Re: YYZ pilot questions

Post by TheSteamingPile »

Not knowing much about the arrival over LINNG nor being a terminal controller; we're doing the best we can with the rules set out as they are. As an above poster mentioned, put the pressure on Nav Can management.

The tower staffing issues are a whole other kettle of fish. Not a day goes by where those in my specialty are saying "Tower better check out more controllers quickly. This is getting insane." The frustration isn't with the pilots alone.
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gustind
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Re: YYZ pilot questions

Post by gustind »

Took a photo of this ATIS the other morning. Probably the funniest ATIS I've seen in a while at YYZ. <Slow Clap>
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Side note, great job to the controllers for moving as much as they do within the boundaries they've been given.
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Daniel Gustin
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Re: YYZ pilot questions

Post by A V I A T O »

Thats some "airplane!" Level shit right there. Leslie Nielsen is running the show.
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Lotro
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Re: YYZ pilot questions

Post by Lotro »

Dockjock wrote: A major runway isn't being used at the largest and busiest airport in Canada because...staffing? That's crazy. Hire some people, it's been like that for far too long. Airlines are wasting money waiting for takeoff, getting vectored, and increasing taxi times.
To the best of my knowledge the last YYZ Tower qualification was nearly 2 years ago. In that time, I believe nearly 10 candidates have been cease trained. I believe that place has the worst qualification record in the country. It is chronically understaffed and there is no end in sight.

In it's defense, it's also the busiest tower in the country.
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NotDirty!
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Re: YYZ pilot questions

Post by NotDirty! »

gustind wrote:Took a photo of this ATIS the other morning. Probably the funniest ATIS I've seen in a while at YYZ. <Slow Clap>
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
ImageImage
Side note, great job to the controllers for moving as much as they do within the boundaries they've been given.
New question: Why do they not use Runway 07 Left (and Right I assume) more frequently? Where have they been hiding those extra runways all these years?

On another note, having primary arrivals on 05 and departures on 23 could be interesting to watch... :axe:
Do you guys have a popcorn maker in the tower cab?
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Dockjock
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Re: YYZ pilot questions

Post by Dockjock »

Well it sure feels like something fishy is going on, because an alleged training success rate over a two year period should not be 0%. Looks like tower in the weak link. Who are they accountable to, if anybody?
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Re: YYZ pilot questions

Post by wordstwice »

Lotro wrote:
Dockjock wrote: A major runway isn't being used at the largest and busiest airport in Canada because...staffing? That's crazy. Hire some people, it's been like that for far too long. Airlines are wasting money waiting for takeoff, getting vectored, and increasing taxi times.
To the best of my knowledge the last YYZ Tower qualification was nearly 2 years ago. In that time, I believe nearly 10 candidates have been cease trained. I believe that place has the worst qualification record in the country. It is chronically understaffed and there is no end in sight.

In it's defense, it's also the busiest tower in the country.
That figure is simply not true. What is true is that every time someone qualifies, someones else retires or gets a promotion...its a revolving door.
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Re: YYZ pilot questions

Post by Married a Canadian »

Late to the thread...sorry....been working evenings this week.

I will add the terminal perspective here. Although I am just one opinion...It would be fair to say that most of that I say or think on Avcanada is pretty much what most of YYZ terminal would say, give or take a few procedural interpretations. I am surprised at a couple of the comments on this thread. I will try to address the questions brought up

1 Descent clearance at LINNG? You get descent depending on where you fit into the arrival sequence. You will not be given lower (8000ft) if you are number 5 plus..with aircraft ahead of you in the sequence. Pilots probably notice that they get vectors, speed control, constraints deleted and descent as part of the arrival. Terminal is using these tools to get you into the downwind in an order and altitude sequence that works for us. We won't remove the restraints permanently because we need you to slow at certain points (especially the 200kts in the downwind) and we also need to know what speed you are doing at certain points. Nothing p***s terminal off more than a pilot slowing without telling us...and it happens more than once a day. The constraints give the pilots and ATC something to work with...if you can't make them...tell us. We do our best to get you descent at an appropriate juncture. We don't want you high on the approach either!

2 Runway assignment given not listed on the ATIS? Landing 05....Departing 06L is the example given. When arrival peaks are high, tower will allow a few "offloads" onto the departure runway. This helps smooth out the arrival rate....it is always appreciated by the terminal. We don't "advertise" 06L as an arrival runway on the ATIS because technically it isn't in this case, if we did most of the Air Canada US arrivals would ask for it as an arrival runway and soon you end up with too many arrivals on the departure runway.
This leads to the next point

3 Using the ATIS to determine your arrival runway...I would suggest that you don't. ATC assigns the arrival runway....the ATIS will tell you what the operation is, but as in the above case, will not tell you when we are trying to make the operation more expeditious. We assign the runways by 60 miles from YYZ. This range has been agreed upon by the users (ie the airlines)....if you are programming in a runway before this (before ATC has confirmed) then you might end up being given a change. There are certain bedpost fixes that you can almost always guarantee your runway (ie from BOXUM 05/23)...but we are trying to balance the arrival load and sometimes that might mean a change. If you get given a runway before 60 miles...then you can have no complaints as that is what our procedures say......I don't know if you listen out to when we actually try to accommodate "requests"...ie North End parking, Air Canada US arrivals....quite afew pilots have NO problems changing close in if it means a shorter taxi.
If you get a change within 60 miles..then apologies...usually we have the balance wrong or there has been an overshoot, or flow has dropped the ball. We try to avoid it as much as possible.

4 ATIS not giving a correct indication of what we are doing. The tower and Terminal and the GTAA operate a fluid environment. Variables such as the winds, weather, work in progress, flight checks, equipment unserviceability's, staffing, shift handover, traffic peaks and dips...all go towards determining what we are doing in both specialties. 15R was mentioned as a landing runway earlier in the thread with "suspicion". It was actually the landing runway at the time due to work on the field.
Again I would suggest that if pilots are dialing up the ATIS an hour before landing and then being "surprised" when something might have changed when they get to YYZ.....have a bit more understanding of what is going on at a busy airport. We also can't forecast when the winds go round...so if we do an end for end..you are hardly likely to hear about it on the ATIS...it is usually a NOW thing.
We have pilots checking in complaining that they have had TWO runway changes.....when we work it out we find out they program a runway after departure from whatever airport, find the winds have changed...program another runway BEFORE ATC confirms it, then complains to us when ATC assigns the runway they are to land on as though we are responsible for them making their own plans.
We will help as much as possible...but you are part of a sequence of planes...and you go where you fit.

5 Speed control...don't say "slow to 250 kts". You might do it...some guys don't. Our radar is pretty accurate when it comes to seeing what speed you are doing...we can see when you are "cheating". It is the biggest bugbear of TCU controllers. A lot of controllers give guys the option of descent first then speed.....or other way round. I am not a fan of hearing controllers say descend and slow down (not easy I know). However we will reiterate speeds to you at times...because from our chairs..it doesn't always look like you are complying.

6 Descent via the STAR. Not always possible when you are in a sequence. Plus we don't trust certain airlines to actually comply with this, and we have seen one too many aircraft descend into departure airspace OR, as has been mentioned, descend at the speed of sound and set off TCAS RAs with all traffic in the vicinity.
We sometimes do it when there are no departures around, but when it is busy and we need to vector, speed control etc etc..it is not as easy.
On midnight shifts a lot of controllers will use the points to have you close up the STAR. I am one, we like it for the reduced workload on our end. Can't do it when busy. We know the FMS can do it...but the FMS is not aware of what number in the sequence it is....yet!

7 170kts to FAF. I don't think it would be a good idea to put it on the approach plate as pilots would slow to it BEFORE we need them to (and it has been done a LOT recently by a carrier that should know better). Our aim is to get you on final spaced at the appropriate distance, be it 5 miles, 3 miles, 2.5miles or Wake separation. Once we have you correctly spaced we will slow you back.
I know that it sounds redundant to remind you to hold it to the FAF...but unfortunately for pilots...a few of your brethren have made it difficult for us by slowing to final before the FAF...or not doing 170 as asked.
We wouldn't have to do some of the "annoying things" if we could trust EVERY carrier to follow the instruction. The guys who do it properly are being penalised by the ones who aren't. I have chewed out a fair few pilots recently that decide that they know the space to the aircraft in front better than I do.

8 Controlling Visual approaches. Again...we have to do it for 1 Departures and 2 We have been burnt by poor airmanship in the past. You would think in a parallel runway environment that taking a run at the other side would not be a good idea...but that is what some guys do. We also see pilots who must be ex military because they seem to think that Tower can land guys two at a time..or with someone already on the runway.
There have been too many occasions at YYZ of an "uncontrolled visual" not working out properly....therefore it is now mandated that we maintain control till on the localiser.

9 [quote]Agreed on the STARS postmaster, and agreed on the reasons they don't do this at YYZ, ZBBYLW. Now the question is, why is the entire thing even structured this way, putting arrivals and departures in conflict unless the controller intervenes and cancels the published restrictions? Brutal. I've heard the excuse that NavCanada consulted with airlines on the procedures but did they ever run a simulation? Clearly, the airspace doesn't work.
[/quote

Have to take you up on this comment. Comes across as rather arrogant, and also rather insulting.
Why are arrivals and departures in "conflict"? Because it is a busy international airport with planes arriving and departing to all four points of the compass. They are going to be in "conflict" at some point along the line...it is my job to make sure that you are separated. You are part of a sequence...you will be controlled to fit in with that sequence...and if that means we have to take you off the SID or STAR or cancel your restrictions, or have you slightly high/low...then so be it. The controller "intervenes" because it is our job to. If we just let you run..then it would be an almighty clusterf***! As I have mentioned earlier....some of your fellow pilots don't make OUR jobs easier by showing a lack of airmanship and lack of understanding of what we are doing.

Saying that NAV Canada uses airline consultation as an "excuse" is an insult to both yours and my profession. They did consult. Whether you like it or not both our respective colleagues were involved PLUS high levels of managements. Whether you respect that or not is up to you...but to say that it doesn't work is not only wrong....but implies that you think you are the only aircraft in the sky.
Why would you even ask if we ran simulations?? Again because YOU think it doesn't work?

YYZ is not perfect...we are aware of that. We also accept criticism and accept the evolving of procedures and airspace (the new airspace and restrictions has been tweaked numerous times since 2012). However we are also in the top 15 busiest airports in the world..and in airspace that, in your opinion, does not work, are able to run over 120 movements (arrivals and departures) an hour. We would not be able to do this if the system was that poorly designed.

I don't mind criticism....I don't mind comparisons to other airports...there is another thread about that exact thing. What I do mind is when some users don't seem to take into account what makes each airport unique and why certain things they do elsewhere aren't applicable to what happens in YYZ.

10 Tower staffing. Cossack answers the tower questions, and does so in detail and usually with patience. He has answered these queries on other threads and it is not my place to comment on their situation.
I will say though...remember that the tower deals with the same constraints we do..and also deals directly with the GTAA which adds an extra layer.
They also have had numerous checkouts in the last couple of years...but also people do retire and move elsewhere.
Plus as has been mentioned..they ARE the busiest tower unit in the country...it is not easy.


I welcome discourse with pilot community....I do think it helps understanding on both ends. Please be aware though that you are busy...we are busy. You have rules, we have rules. You want to be safe...it is my JOB to make sure you are.
Most importantly for me.....while I fully understand that you are "in command".....remember that I am trying to fit you in with all the other "in commands'"...there has to be some give and take. Just because you don't like something and think you are getting a raw deal does not always make it so....we have the pretty much the full picture.
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Re: YYZ pilot questions

Post by PostmasterGeneral »

Nothing constructive to add, but wanted to thank you "married" for the insight into your end of things!
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Re: YYZ pilot questions

Post by fish4life »

Is there any other place other than avcanada where pilots can ask ATC questions and vice versa? It would be kinda nice if Nav Canada had a small open forum section for Q & A's where we could have these why is it like this or what do you like better questions with different airports.

In the meantime I appreciate the dialogue here it is one if the more productive threads.
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Re: YYZ pilot questions

Post by Braun »

fish4life wrote:Is there any other place other than avcanada where pilots can ask ATC questions and vice versa? It would be kinda nice if Nav Canada had a small open forum section for Q & A's where we could have these why is it like this or what do you like better questions with different airports.

In the meantime I appreciate the dialogue here it is one if the more productive threads.
You can always give a call right to the supervisor of a certain airspace/unit. You can get the number through the shift manager. It happens all the time that people have questions on a procedure/best practice etc...don't be shy we aren't mean (in general haha). this place is indeed pretty good but there is always the anonymity factor to deal with but in the sub section things seem to be a bit more ''normal''.
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Re: YYZ pilot questions

Post by cyeg66 »

ZBBYLW wrote: ....(even more so than other (albeit quieter) Canadian airports such as YVR/YUL/YYC(though YYC terminal and ZEG centre probably should coordinate a bit better))....

:lol:
I like to think YYC terminal has little say on what actually goes on. We're (mostly) just along for the ride.

#thecookiejarwithmanyhands
#trenchpigs


Carry on.
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