Read back your full ident

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jjal
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Post by jjal »

I agree. I would also say a lot of those flights cut as many corners as possible when doing other things like clearance readbacks and position reports. I have heard several, particularly it seems in XL (hehe sorry... "CYXL"), pilots reading back as follows:

"ATC clears XXX123 to the Kingfisher Lake airport via Sioux Lookout direct, maintain 5000, depart runway 16, turn left, proceed on course squawk 1234." read back as:

"XXX123 cleared Kingfisher via direct off one-six left turn up to five thousand 1234"

"Readback correct"

First - they got all hot and bothered a while back needing specification of clearance limit as "airport" or "NDB" or whatever the case may be. Seems to be relaxed? At any rate an abbreviated and quickly spit-out readback is inviting someone, somewhere either in the cockpit or ATC to miss something, possibly major. You will always here my readbacks as complete, verbatim of what was given to me as, well, it just makes sense to me. I mean I suppose most if not all the required info WAS in the readback, just in a lousy and "Reason's-Swiss-Cheese"-laden format.

As for position reports, don't even get me started on those Wasaya/NAC Air/"etc" flights who obviously need more training on how to make a proper position report, fly a half-assed circuit when up north (HELLO other airplanes in the circuit too!) or how to reply to some repeated calls for positions etc. when operating in the same area.

I don't mean to "hijack" the post but just wanted to let you know that, yah, I notice the corner cutting too - not only in the flight numbers but also in other things.

As ATC I would just start asking "confirm that was WASAYA 1234" or whatever as the case may be. Then make them read it all back again using their call sign. If I call up as "charlie golf alpha bravo charlie", I cannot abbreviate that to ABC until atc does it for me. If I don't get an abbreviation, I have to continue using GOLF in all my transmissions, or so is my understanding. CYXL radio is bad for reading back full idents - maybe they do it on purpose or maybe accidentally. At any rate I don't see any reason why a flight with some radio callsign should be able to abbreviate. ATC should force the issue on the radio, especially if you think it is a safety concern.

Make em do it two or three times to four or five flights on the same freq and maybe the problem will be noticed a bit more?
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invertedattitude
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Post by invertedattitude »

JZA is good for this, but seriously who does the callsign assignments?

Jazz 8898/8988/8889/
8768/8678

:shock:
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Braun
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Post by Braun »

haha, I noticed that too
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Pygmie
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Post by Pygmie »

The amount of incidents or near incidents that have occured because of JZA idents is rediculous. I've personally had at least 3-4 JZA flights take other aircraft's clearances in the last 6 months alone.

Might not sounds like a lot, but considering that's more then every other airline combined. . .
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Braun
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Post by Braun »

Has someone ever told them this? Maybe they could revise that, I wouldn't see the problem in an ident change...
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zzjayca
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Post by zzjayca »

Pygmie wrote:The amount of incidents or near incidents that have occured because of JZA idents is rediculous. I've personally had at least 3-4 JZA flights take other aircraft's clearances in the last 6 months alone.

Might not sounds like a lot, but considering that's more then every other airline combined. . .
Same here, at least 3-4 in the last few months. Couple that with the flight crews who abbreviate their callsign or eliminate it all together and there are some major safety concerns cropping up.
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Pygmie
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Post by Pygmie »

Braun wrote:Has someone ever told them this? Maybe they could revise that, I wouldn't see the problem in an ident change...
They were approached about it at least 5 years ago. Not sure of the result of those meetings. . .
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Braun
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Post by Braun »

Pygmie wrote:
Braun wrote:Has someone ever told them this? Maybe they could revise that, I wouldn't see the problem in an ident change...
They were approached about it at least 5 years ago. Not sure of the result of those meetings. . .
Well I think it's pretty self-conclusive after 5 years :P . Silly Jazz.
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FamilyGuy
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Post by FamilyGuy »

Ask them their civil ident and USE it. Very simple solution. Just remember in a CAATS environment the "other" implications...
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Pygmie
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Post by Pygmie »

Asking every Jazz flight their civil ident doesn't seem like the ideal solution. I don't know what it is, but even idents that don't sound all that similar (i.e. 8825, 8295) shouldn't be causing as much problems as they are.
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Jerricho
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Post by Jerricho »

Braun wrote:Has someone ever told them this?
I think a YYZ controller tried a couple of weeks ago..............

:twisted:
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yrp
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Post by yrp »

On a related subject, did I miss a change a while back about using your full callsign including the C-?

Back when I was licensed it was proper to just use the last 4 letters. But recently, I've noticed ATC/FSS including the Charlie on first contact.
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bigfssguy
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Post by bigfssguy »

I've never heard an FSS using the charlie??? I only use full idents when talking to a foreign arcraft eg: N345BC, DGHYT, ZKJBC etc.
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hydro
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Post by hydro »

bigfssguy wrote:I've never heard an FSS using the charlie??? I only use full idents when talking to a foreign arcraft eg: N345BC, DGHYT, ZKJBC etc.
I catch myself using the Charlie when the pilot uses it themself, out of habit of just repeating what the pilot says on its first call. I would also occasional use it while I was training, I wonder if the atc/fss using it now are doing the same thing and/or new themselves.

hydro
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Braun
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Post by Braun »

We are told to omit the charlie, but we must pronounce the full ident on non-canadian aircraft but it is ok to just say, FAAT instead of C-FAAT.
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yrp
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Post by yrp »

Okay, good. Thought I might have missed a rule change there.

The registration does have two other C's in it, so maybe the specialists are just making sure they got it right.
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Braun
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Post by Braun »

Anyways as a double check pilots should, when its a privately owned aircraft, say "Navajo Foxtrot foxtro alpha tango with you, 150" etc... Just another little way to double check the ident.
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yrp
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Post by yrp »

Right, I always say the type on initial call-up. Do you mean that ATC will double check the type against the ident? Is this just if you have a flightplan or handoff or something?

Surely it doesn't get checked against the registration database each time?

(C-FFAT is a Cub Special BTW, not a Navajo :lol: )
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Braun
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Post by Braun »

Haha, I was just pulling an example out of my butt. But no, I don't think ATC would cross check the type, but it's there if needed is the way I see it.
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MCA
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Post by MCA »

Braun wrote:Haha, I was just pulling an example out of my butt.
looks like an ident in your class exercices... ;)
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