IFR clearance...NDB with same name as airport given in clrc

Axial Flow · Post by **Axial Flow** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:21 am

Sorry for the gawdy title but I have another question for ATC folks.

I had an experience today where I was departing class E airspace in a non radar environment (Rouyn-Noranda) and was given the clearance.....

ATC Clears ME to the Montreal airport VIA, Rouyn DIRECT Mirabel....right turn on course....etc

So here is my question...

The airport is Rouyan and the en route NDB 4 miles west of the field is called Rouyan, now there is no airway associated and in this case the track difference was a mile or two. But since it was no radar this would make a difference to the controller who is basing his/her seperation on me being either leaving the NDB or airport and tracking to Mirabel.

Now when you receive right turn on course and if he/she wants me to go on a 45 degree intercept or proceed to the beacon and on course (which would have taken me into the approach path) ? I have also gotten turn right proceed to the NDB BPOC....basically what I am trying to say is that I have been hand held and vectored too much lately

Also...I departed Winnipeg was on a vector past my initial waypoint and then was about 5 miles away received proceed on course. I could probably find this in the AIM but I am lazy and also want an ATC spin on things. So do I fly an intercept or go direct to next waypoint ? Going back to the initial would send me back towards departure gate so that is obvious no.

Thanks ahead of time for all your help..

kevenv · Post by **kevenv** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 6:36 am

We have been directed when issuing clearances through flight service to state the airport as the first point in the clx. What should have been given is:

ATC Clears YOU to the Montreal airport VIA, Rouyn AIRPORT DIRECT Mirabel....right turn on course....etc

This is a result of a mix up of who received what clx at two different airports served by the same FSS and the wrong aircraft departing from the wrong place.

As for Rt turn on course, most times I don't care how you do it. Chances are there is no other traffic that I am concerned with. If you are given a specific heading to intercept or DCT a point and on course the controller may have needed you to fly an assigned hdg or course to achieve arrival / departure sep. This is just a guess as it's tough to figure out why some things are given. If you fly out of CYFC there is a big restricted airspace about 3 miles south of the field. So if you are departing 27, say to CYYZ via HUL J509 VLV etc, there is a good chance if you are an itinerant a/c that I would give you depart 27 turn right dct HUL on course to insure you don't turn, for some reason, back to the VOR to pick up the on course.

Regarding your WPG thing.......if I vector you for whatever reason past the first point on your flightplan, I will always either give you a hdg (maintain present hdg, intercept J509 on course) or clear you to a point further down (cleared DCT HUL FPR). If in doubt, don't ever be afraid to ask!

invertedattitude · Post by **invertedattitude** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 9:03 am

Generally should try and say " Cleared via Rouyn Airport/Beacon etc"

If you're off your flight plan we should be saying

"Cleared present position direct..."

or simply "Cleared direct"

Unless we want you on your flight plan.

Axial Flow · Post by **Axial Flow** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 2:00 pm

Thanks for the replies, gonna just ask for clarification from now on as it happened to me again today...

The VOR/Airport same name and I had filed direct to the airport and then due to no radar was being asked for DME and altitude as there was another aircraft inbound. Luckily the airport and VOR are pretty much co-located so it wasn't a problem, but direct Montreal (yul) and direct Montreal (cyul) then it would be bad news all around

But I think because of this and the fact I always get direct Montreal VOR.

I filed an airway home tonight and filing to the VOR as my last fix then the airport

Appreciate all the input,

Cheers

lilfssister · Post by **lilfssister** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 6:20 pm

Don't wanna paint all with the same brush, but I make a POINT on the readback to ACC of saying "CLeared to the SUmspot (Confirm thats' Sumspot AIRPORT?) via other spot (confirm thats other spot AIRPORT??)
via VIctor blah blah blah..
I'm not saying some ACC controller's phraseology falls short of what I would expect from my FSS brethern that I evaluate...Oh what the hell..yeah...I find the phraseology leaves a LOT to be desired on the other end of the FSS/ACC line...

FamilyGuy · Post by **FamilyGuy** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 7:33 pm

Context boys and girls CONTEXT!

When these rules were written, and in fact when the VOR's were named, there was no possible way for 90% of IFR flight's to go direct the airport served by the VOR of the same name - and even if they could, the NAV accuracy of either made it a moot point.

As an example YEG, and CYEG are a considerable distance apart yet are often referred to as "Edmonton". That however is completely incorrect - there is only one "Edmonton" and that is the VOR. The other is "Edmonton Airport" and should be stated as such in any clearence/readback.

It's been discussed elsewhere, but with greater NAV accuracy comes a greater expectation from ATC that you will proceed EXACTLY where you are cleared. 1 or 2 degrees over 60nm = 1 or 2 miles off course and could affect separation in a RADAR environment. The big "protected airspace" concept if /R etc does NOT apply in the RADAR world anymore.

lilfssister · Post by **lilfssister** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:51 pm

FamilyGuy wrote:As an example YEG, and CYEG are a considerable distance apart yet are often referred to as "Edmonton". That however is completely incorrect - there is only one "Edmonton" and that is the VOR. The other is "Edmonton Airport" and should be stated as such in any clearence/readback.

It's been discussed elsewhere, but with greater NAV accuracy comes a greater expectation from ATC that you will proceed EXACTLY where you are cleared. 1 or 2 degrees over 60nm = 1 or 2 miles off course and could affect separation in a RADAR environment. The big "protected airspace" concept if /R etc does NOT apply in the RADAR world anymore.

Uhh..yeah...what I said earlier. If there's a Sumspot Airport, VOR, NDB, is not incumbent on the ATC delivering the cx to either an aircraft or FSS to identify it as the "Sumspot" VOR, NDB or Airport"?

We do a Communictions proficiency review every six in months in FSS, and as far as I understand the rules in ATSAMM it applies to ATC too. If I based the review on only what I hear on our end of the interphone, MOST of the ATC would NOT pass a proficiency review. Are our reviewers too picky, or whoever reviews ATC phraseology too lax?

FamilyGuy · Post by **FamilyGuy** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 9:27 pm

It IS incumbant upon ATC to specify IF they deem it necessary. The role of FSS is to relay VERBATIM the clearence. Easy enough. ATC has their own proficiency standards quite different than FSS.
ATC clearence = ATC issue - for all the FSS knows or the pilot it may not matter - that is up to ATC to decide. Chances are if a clearence is relayed through FSS "protected airspace" comes into play as opposed to the normal DCPC in a RADAR environment.

the_professor · Post by **the_professor** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 1:29 am

lilfssister wrote:Uhh..yeah...what I said earlier. If there's a Sumspot Airport, VOR, NDB, is not incumbent on the ATC delivering the cx to either an aircraft or FSS to identify it as the "Sumspot" VOR, NDB or Airport"?

Yes, the controller should be specific, and if they aren't pilots should not hesistate to seek clarification.

sierra yankee · Post by **sierra yankee** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 9:09 pm

Personally I think we should follow the current American practice of giving a different name to all navaids that aren't colocated with the airport. Eg. the Farmington (FMN) VOR was renamed to Rattlesnake (RSK) about three years ago because the VOR is about six miles from the Farmington (KFMN) airport. There are a ton of other examples. If the navaid and airport are colocated then it doesn't really matter which one you're using, but at a number of airports (YUL, YOW, YQT to name a few) that's not the case.

All that said, I like to think that we controllers are smart enough to know when it's likely to make a difference and to be specific in those cases. When I'm passing a CYQT lander to Winnipeg I'll specify if we've given direct to the VOR or the airport, and if I forget they'll almost always ask. On the other hand, if somebody tells me a guy is going "direct Wiarton" I'm not going to be pedantic and ask, "do you mean the VOR or the airport?" because they're colocated and it makes no difference. Even if I am trying to establish some sort of procedural separation based on distance and the aircraft is using the airport versus the VOR, the added accuracy of the GPS more than cancels out the 1/4 mile ambiguity introduced by using the airport instead of the navaid.

When giving or relaying a departure clearance, the instructions will be more specific the more important a specific track/routing is for separation purposes. If you hear "ATC clears ADF to the Montreal airport via direct blah, blah blah, squawk 5573 ..." that's a good indication that there's nobody in the area. If instead you get "ATC clears ADF to the Montreal airport via Rouyn Airport, Rouyn NDB, Victor blah blah flight planned route, depart runway 23, turn right heading blah blah, climb to such and such altitude on that heading, then direct Rouyn NDB on course, cross Rouyn NDB at or above such and such altitude ..." etc. etc. then that would be a good indication that there's a hell of a lot going on. But in either case, if the clearance is at all ambiguous you're well within your right to ask, and we'd rather have you do that than be uncertain or get it wrong.

invertedattitude · Post by **invertedattitude** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 12:50 am

Might seem foolish, but thought I'd throw this simple phrase from the NAT Tracks:

4. EIGHTY PERCENT OF GROSS NAV ERRORS RESULT FROM POOR COCKPIT
PROCEDURES. ALWAYS CARRY OUT PROPER WAYPOINT CHECKS

That would include knowing what waypoint you're supposed to be flying to