French ATC radio communication

This forum has been developed to discuss ATS related topics.

Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, North Shore

User avatar
invertedattitude
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2353
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 1:12 pm

Post by invertedattitude »

I really don't see the argument here, no offense MCA.

Canada is a member of ICAO, as are most of the countries we host on this planet.

ICAO says all ATC communications shall be performed in English.

There is no wavering to that rule, what cloudrunner is saying is that everyone talking in English CANNOT degrade safety, while talking in French on the frequency at least slightly degrades safety, and in certain situations greatly affects safety.

Have a read up on one of Italys worst plane crashes
A report by Milan's public prosecutor said a "death trap" had been set at Linate.

The airport's ground radar system was out of service, even though the airport is frequently hit by fog.

Investigators also found that controllers had used Italian as well as the standard English to address the Cessna crew, and the crew was not asked to read back the tower's instructions.
Image
A contributing factor in the death of 118 people was that had the controller been speaking English to the Cessna jet, the SAS airplane might have understood that he was approaching the active runway.


There's a reason why ICAO has implemented an English competency by 2008 for all ANS operators and Airlines.


It's to the point now most foreign (to north america) airlines are rapidly hiring Canadians/Americans/Brits to fly for them specifically because of their excellent RT abilities.

When you have a "Asiana" or "Korean Air" pilot check in and his british accent is crisper than the London Fog, it tells you something about how important AIRLINES know it is to be able to communicate in English.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
GilletteNorth
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 704
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 1:09 pm
Location: throw a dart dead center of Saskatchewan

Post by GilletteNorth »

Someone asked
I don't understand why French is even being used as NavCanada isn't funded by the federal government (supposedly) and is a private corporation.
Don't quote me :lol: but I think it would have something to do with the agreement by Nav Canada when they aquired the ATS system from the government of Cananda not to change services provided without consultation with users and approval by TC.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Having a standard that pilots lose their licence after making a mistake despite doing no harm to aircraft or passengers means soon you needn't worry about a pilot surplus or pilots offering to fly for free. Where do you get your experience from?
Zatopec
Rank Moderator
Rank Moderator
Posts: 332
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 7:02 pm
Location: Meters from the end of the road... for real.

Post by Zatopec »

That is correct.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Zatopec
_______

He who has his ear to the ground has his ass exposed
User avatar
GilletteNorth
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 704
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 1:09 pm
Location: throw a dart dead center of Saskatchewan

Post by GilletteNorth »

except for my spelling
government of Cananda
Quite a nice country I live in Cananda :oops:
---------- ADS -----------
 
Having a standard that pilots lose their licence after making a mistake despite doing no harm to aircraft or passengers means soon you needn't worry about a pilot surplus or pilots offering to fly for free. Where do you get your experience from?
Alex YCV
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 281
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2006 6:41 pm
Location: The old Cartierville Airport
Contact:

Post by Alex YCV »

Okay, back on the topic:

In the Dorval tower, the "electronic" strips show a different color in french than in english, making it easy for the controllers to know what language to use.

It is funny as heck though to hear a pilot change languages and the control has to stop and reconfirm the language before they can keep going.
---------- ADS -----------
 
This is a my sig... I hope you like it.
frac
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 83
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:02 am

Post by frac »

invertedattitude wrote:
ICAO says all ATC communications shall be performed in English.
Not that I really care but I think that you are misinformed:


Annex 10 to the Convention on International Civil Aviation
Aeronautical Communications
Volume II

Communications Procedures including those with PANS status

Chapter 5 - Aeronautical Mobile Service - Voice communications

5.2 Radiotelephony procedures
5.2.1.2 Language to be used

5.2.1.2.1 The air-ground radiotelephony communications shall be conducted in the language normally used by the station on the ground or in the English language.

5.2.1.2.3 The languages available at a given station on the ground shall form part of the Aeronautical Information Publications and other published aeronautical information concerning such facilities.
invertedattitude wrote: There is no wavering to that rule
As far as I know, there is no such rule, the requirement you are thinking about is probably this one:

5.2.1.2.2 The English language shall be available, on request from any aircraft station, at all stations on the ground serving designated airports and routes used by international air services
invertedattitude wrote:
There's a reason why ICAO has implemented an English competency by 2008 for all ANS operators and Airlines.

No such thing again...

Annex 1 to the Convention on International Civil Aviation
Personnel Licensing

Chapter 1:

1.2.9: Language Proficiency
1.2.9.4: As of March 2008, aeroplane, airship, helicopter and powered-lift pilots, air traffic controllers and aeronautical station operators shall demonstrate the ability to speak and understand the language used for radiotelephony communications to the level specified in the language proficiency requirements in Appendix 1.


Best regards,
Frac
---------- ADS -----------
 
the_professor
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1130
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2006 3:03 pm

Post by the_professor »

Alex YCV wrote:It is funny as heck though to hear a pilot change languages and the control has to stop and reconfirm the language before they can keep going.
Funny unless your frequency is congested as hell and you're wasting time on redundant transmissions like what language the pilot wants. There shouldn't be a choice in the first place.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
invertedattitude
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2353
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 1:12 pm

Post by invertedattitude »

Alright I'll bite
In September 2003 the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO), a division within the United Nations, announced changes to provisions strengthening language proficiency requirements. These requirements will come into effect from March 2008. These changes mean that for the first time, all pilots operating on international routes and all air traffic controllers who communicate with foreign pilots will need to have their English language proficiency formally assessed. The ICAO language proficiency requirement requires that pilots and air traffic controllers be able to communicate proficiently using both ICAO phraseology (ICAO Doc. 9832) and plain English (ICAO Doc. 9835).

Further to what Frac said
Annex 1:
Aeroplane and helicopter pilots, air traffic controllers and aeronautical station operators shall demonstrate the ability to speak and understand the language used for radiotelephony communications to the level specified in the language proficiency requirements in the Appendix.

Annex 1 also contains an Appendix: the ICAO six-band Language proficiency Rating Scale.

The Appendix states that: The language proficiency requirements are applicable to the use of both phraseologies and plain English.
According to Doc. 9835 a language test used to assess language for the ICAO Language standards should:

be aviation-specific (not assess general English proficiency) and be related to the language of radiotelephony which pilots and air traffic controllers use in their work
assess language based on the criteria established in the ICAO Language Proficiency Rating Scale
not assess a knowledge of phraseologies, but must assess communicative ability in both phraseology and plain Language
assess speaking and listening skills directly (not assess language knowledge indirectly, or assess reading and writing ability).
Airlines and air traffic control authorities can prepare for the ICAO requirement by considering the following questions:

What are the proficiency levels of our staff in relation to the ICAO requirement now?
What can be done now to understand how the ICAO requirements will impact on our organisation?
What proportion of our pilots/air traffic controllers are likely to achieve ICAO Levels 4, 5 or 6 by March 2008?
What be done to help those staff who are likely be below ICAO Level 4?
What does language training in aviation English involve to achieve higher rates of ICAO compliance?
How can language training be done effectively and efficiently to minimise the impact on our organisation?

In otherwords, and in the ones you said, every Air Traffic Controller and airline pilot, must be able to speak excellent aviation english, and have a very high level of comprehension of the english language. While you may be correct that every transmission doesn't need to be English, every operator needs to speak it and understand it to the same level as their own language from an aviation standpoint by March 2008.

SO that all being said, if two people are having a conversation say about turbulence reports enFrancais, that controller will then have to repeat it in english to certain airplanes who likely won't speak it, just as an example, everyone speaking the same language can only improve safety, speaking multiple languages on the frequency can only serve to degrade safety, and can add NO layers of safety if everyone is on the same english profiency level.
---------- ADS -----------
 
kevenv
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 680
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 6:19 am

Post by kevenv »

There are airports in South America where you are not allowed to fly into unless you speak Spanish as no English is used.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
invertedattitude
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2353
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 1:12 pm

Post by invertedattitude »

I assume those countries airports are not ICAO members then, therefore, no airlines of any importance would or should fly there.
---------- ADS -----------
 
frac
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 83
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:02 am

Post by frac »

kevenv wrote:There are airports in South America where you are not allowed to fly into unless you speak Spanish as no English is used.
Same thing in France:

There are a couple of Airports with instrument approaches that require French communications on the radio. ICAO only mandates English ATC service where there is sufficient International Traffic.

Laval (LFOV) is one of them, you can only fly the NDB approach for runway 33 if you speak French on the radio.


Montbeliard on weekend is another one and most airfields mandate French on the radio when the ATS services are unavailable unless there is sufficient International Traffic, in this case, English is required.

At Dinard (LFRD): English is mandatory on the radio between 2100 and 0600Z when ATS services are closed and French is mandatory between 0600Z and 2100Z.

Code: Select all

Procedures and special instructions
VFR FPL must be transmitted to LFRDZPZX,
LFRNZPZX and LFRSZPZX when flying from or to
Dinard.
Preferred QFU: 353° due to IFR operations.
A/A: Outside ATS, HOR FR only 0600-2100,
EN only 2100-0600 WIN + 1 HR.
Regards,

Frac
---------- ADS -----------
 
kevenv
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 680
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 6:19 am

Post by kevenv »

We really have to get over this whole "English is the only language in aviation" issue. Check the ICAO web site. You will find that all of the countries in South America are member countries. You will also find

"In which languages does a licence holder need to demonstrate proficiency?

Amendment 164 to Annex 1 has introduced strengthened language proficiency requirements for flight crew members and air traffic controllers. The language proficiency requirements apply to any language used for radiotelephony communications in international operations. Therefore, pilots on international flights shall demonstrate language proficiency in either English or the language used by the station on the ground. Controllers working on stations serving designated airports and routes used by international air services shall demonstrate language proficiency in English as well as in any other language(s) used by the station on the ground."

If the pilots only have to be able to speak english or the language on the ground, it seems reasonable to assume that english is not the only language. You would hear english from the pilot doing international ops and Spanish or any other local language from pilots that are more regional carriers not doing international ops.

If you look at the part about Controllers, proficiency in english is required at places providing service to international operations only. They also have to be able to speak the language used by the station on the ground. Two languages is not unusual.

Can we put this one to bed now?
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
invertedattitude
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2353
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 1:12 pm

Post by invertedattitude »

Regardless of what is being done.

Two languages in aviation has been a contributory factor in more than one accident resulting in fatalities.

One universal language can only serve to improve aviation.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “ATS Question Forum”