Landing on multiple runways?

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bigfssguy
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Landing on multiple runways?

Post by bigfssguy » Mon Apr 28, 2008 8:09 am

Hey i have a question for any controllers out there but the winnipeg guys in particular. I went down to winnipeg a weeks ago and i we were landing on 18 i believe and there was another plane landing on the other runway at the same time. We slowed held short and the other plane a PC 12 went zooming by. Is this a common practice? I've never seen it happen before i thought it was kinda neat to see. I could see him lined up the whole way coming in. Thanks
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avfun
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Re: Landing on multiple runways?

Post by avfun » Mon Apr 28, 2008 8:58 am

It's called Land And Hold Short Operations (LAHSO) and is frequently used in Winnipeg, particularly when 18 is active, due to the length of runway available before crossing 13/31 (as well, terminal doesn't have the same options for building in spacing between arrivals when all the arriving aircraft are basically straight-in from the north).

It can work the other way as well, with someone landing 13/31 holding short of 18, but obviously there's a lot less runway available for the stopping aircraft there (about 4000ft on 13/31 vs 7000ft on 18), so fewer aircraft types are allowed to do it. Every aircraft is classified into a Stop Group (by Transport, or at least the information is published by Transport) based on the amount of runway it can safely stop in on a bare and dry or bare and wet runway, and only certain stop groups are valid on each runway.

Both pilots have to agree to participate, and both pilots must be told of the other aircraft. It can also be used to accomodate departures, with a lander holding short of a runway with an aircraft departing on it.
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Jerricho
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Re: Landing on multiple runways?

Post by Jerricho » Mon Apr 28, 2008 11:38 am

LAHSO is a crutch.............. :rolleyes:
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avfun
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Re: Landing on multiple runways?

Post by avfun » Mon Apr 28, 2008 11:46 am

That does seem to be the opinion of some ;)

It's a tool in the box, as long as it's there, I'll happily use it if it helps move traffic :D
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ywg-atc
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Re: Landing on multiple runways?

Post by ywg-atc » Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:27 pm

A crutch like 6 miles in trail spacing?
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bigfssguy
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Re: Landing on multiple runways?

Post by bigfssguy » Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:09 pm

It was still pretty cool on my end, i can see the plane ouit the window, i know the runways intersect. In mu mind i wonder "did the controllers screw up" Then we land and hold short then i realize.....OF COURSE.....ATC never screws up !! LOL, just playing boys!
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ATCn00b
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Re: Landing on multiple runways?

Post by ATCn00b » Tue Apr 29, 2008 5:15 pm

Jerricho wrote:LAHSO is a crutch.............. :rolleyes:
i disagree. LAHSO, like many other options is just another tool to be used at the right time, under the right cicumstances. How can you say it's a crutch when it can actually speed up the flow of traffic and thus save time and money for all?
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Re: Landing on multiple runways?

Post by Jerricho » Tue Apr 29, 2008 5:29 pm

An inability to spot when someone is being a little facetious is also a crutch :smt110 See that smiley at the end????

You mention using at the right time and right circumstances..............is dropping it unexpectedly on a pilot on a visual approach not many miles from the airport one of these right circumstances? A preplanned use, yes. A last minute "life save", not so much. Plus a 6 mile gap behind the LAHSO? Sheeeet, you could get 3 Metros in there all following each other.
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Last edited by Jerricho on Tue Apr 29, 2008 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ATCn00b
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Re: Landing on multiple runways?

Post by ATCn00b » Tue Apr 29, 2008 5:33 pm

where did that comment come from, have a bad day today?
I said used at the right time under the right circumstances, not whipped out at the last minute to solve some problem i have created. Is this how you use it and thus why it's a crutch for you?
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Re: Landing on multiple runways?

Post by Jerricho » Tue Apr 29, 2008 5:38 pm

Wow, I find it humorous you feel what I'm typing applies to YOU. Striking a little close to the bone there?

The last minute situation I describe above is exactly why I say somewhat tongue in cheek it is a crutch when used as a last gasp "Oh sh*t!" with an aircraft shortish final.

It's all right, you'll learn.
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Re: Landing on multiple runways?

Post by ATCn00b » Tue Apr 29, 2008 5:47 pm

In no way do i think what you are saying applies to me. Doesn't strike close to home at all, i am more than confident with my abilities.
As far as your comment "you'll learn" that does. So elaborate please. What are you implying?
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Re: Landing on multiple runways?

Post by Jerricho » Tue Apr 29, 2008 5:59 pm

A simple observation is made as to when "the crutch" is being used as such, and my thoughts on the matter. Obviously you need a little help with what I meant by "A preplanned use, yes. A last minute "life save", not so much.".

As to
ATCn00b wrote:As far as your comment "you'll learn" that does. So elaborate please. What are you implying?
You learn that trying to argue on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics.............
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Re: Landing on multiple runways?

Post by KAFUFO » Tue Apr 29, 2008 6:05 pm

LAHSO is a crutch.............. :rolleyes:
PLEASE don't say anything that will cause the users of YWG atc get even worse service than we already do:lol:
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Re: Landing on multiple runways?

Post by Jerricho » Tue Apr 29, 2008 6:11 pm

I'm watching you KAF.........

At least say "Hi!" next time you're on the freq. :smt082
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Re: Landing on multiple runways?

Post by KAFUFO » Tue Apr 29, 2008 7:05 pm

Hate for you to know whick company I work for :oops:
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Re: Landing on multiple runways?

Post by AuxBatOn » Tue Apr 29, 2008 7:20 pm

Image
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Going for the deck at corner

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Re: Landing on multiple runways?

Post by KAFUFO » Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:47 pm

WTF?
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Re: Landing on multiple runways?

Post by Jerricho » Thu May 01, 2008 3:27 pm

KAFUFO wrote:Hate for you to know whick company I work for :oops:

Oh, I know..............
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Re: Landing on multiple runways?

Post by Topspin » Thu May 01, 2008 11:12 pm

Jerricho wrote:An inability to spot when someone is being a little facetious is also a crutch :smt110 See that smiley at the end????

You mention using at the right time and right circumstances..............is dropping it unexpectedly on a pilot on a visual approach not many miles from the airport one of these right circumstances? A preplanned use, yes. A last minute "life save", not so much. Plus a 6 mile gap behind the LAHSO? Sheeeet, you could get 3 Metros in there all following each other.
Are you suggesting that ATC are not human beings and don't make mistakes or miss things from time to time? I'm glad that it exists, what's preferable, LAHSO or go around?
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Re: Landing on multiple runways?

Post by Jerricho » Fri May 02, 2008 6:05 am

Yes, that's exactly what I'm suggesting (NOTE - THIS IS SARCASM. Perhaps you've heard of it). Obviously the word "crutch" is an ultra, ultra, superbad thing.

My point (I'l spell it out in simple words), is that as nOOb so eloquently put, in the right, preplanned situation, it is a useful procedure. If it's sprung on a pilot at the last minute (especially one on a visual that has kept him/herself a little higher), ATC has now altered the stability of the approach. Sure, it may save a go-around, but what sort of questions would be asked if in the rush, the pilot agrees and still goes through the intersection. If you don't have a problem with throwing it unexpectedly at a pilot in a farily critical phase of flight, that's fine by me. Kind of like a last minute runway change......pilots love that too.

(I'm sure this last observation will now transpire into "Well, the pilot shouldn't have accepted the LAHSO, so it would totally be his fault")
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Re: Landing on multiple runways?

Post by KAFUFO » Fri May 02, 2008 10:12 pm

And that's why people love YWG when your working.
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