Entering controlled IFR from uncontrolled airport

[DH Driver]

If you're departing an uncontrolled airport in IMC conditions that has controlled airspace directly above it (above 2200AGL), what's the preferred/expected way to get a clearance and enter?
Get clearance on the phone then blast into controlled airspace and contact center when reception allows?
Stay under/at 2200agl until reception allows contact then enter?

Thanks

[spaner]

Touchy subject,

If you were departing an airport contolled, technically you'd need the vfr release (not enforced outside of the MF). You got the inbetween airspace figured out, so you could depart vfr, and even enter controlled vmc.

It depends on where you are going, and how you are going to get there. It's specific to the situation, and unique each time. On a flt-plan, ifr, use the phone.

If you know it's not a skc day, use the itin-ifr/vfr.
Depart as you like, vmc-legal, exit the controlled area 5nm, then climb as you like in the uncontrolled to just below FL..

Pick up the clearance via FSS/CTR, as you like.

There really is no set rule, as long as you fall within the rules..

[DH Driver]

Let's try this one,
departing bonnyville in IMC, or low ceilings anyway heading southwest (ignoring any CYR areas), it's in a 'white area' on the low chart so it's controlled down to ground level, or 2200' agl I guess. Obviously you can't get anyone from the ground so what's the best way to go about it that makes it easiest for all involved? I'm sure ATS doesn't like unidentified planes popping up on their radar without talking to them yet.

[ahramin]

Get a clearance on the ground by phone before you depart.

[turbo-prop]

If it is VFR out depart and pick up clearance and if it is low IFR get clearance on the phone otherwise you might get stuck bombing around low level if there is an IFR airplane in the vicinity. You won't get your clearance with him coming into Bonneyville.

[kevenv]

Get a clearance on the ground by phone before you depart.

+1

[leftoftrack]

Stay "VFR" until you get a clearance.

[Captain X]

I can just imagine the cluster F#$% of getting ifr's via the phone in YBF on a Wednesday or Thursday. Even though it's the proper procedure.

[jschnurr]

Stay "VFR" until you get a clearance.

Just to be clear, even if the weather is VFR and you filed IFR, then you cannot enter class E airspace without getting a clearance. i.e. you cannot decide for yourself that you will just remain visual and climb into the airway to pick up clearance.

Your choices are:
1. clearance by phone prior to departure.
2. remain clear of controlled airspace until you can get clearance in the air.
3. call FSS and ask for a VFR departure, then get clearance in the air.

[Captain X]

I've always thought is was funny that an ifr filed a/c can't enter controlled airspace however any old fart cart can blast around vfr no problem prodvided they are not in class c airspace.

[leftoftrack]

Stay "VFR" until you get a clearance.

Just to be clear, even if the weather is VFR and you filed IFR, then you cannot enter class E airspace without getting a clearance. i.e. you cannot decide for yourself that you will just remain visual and climb into the airway to pick up clearance.

Your choices are:
1. clearance by phone prior to departure.
2. remain clear of controlled airspace until you can get clearance in the air.
3. call FSS and ask for a VFR departure, then get clearance in the air.

yup you can. doesn't matter what you have filed your VFR until you accept your clearance

You can explain why not one person flying out of the eastern oil sands ever gets there clearance on the ground yet they climb through multiple low level air routes before they can get into radio range with center.

[photofly]

Stay "VFR" until you get a clearance.

Just to be clear, even if the weather is VFR and you filed IFR, then you cannot enter class E airspace without getting a clearance. i.e. you cannot decide for yourself that you will just remain visual and climb into the airway to pick up clearance.

Can you give some reference to that requirement?

[ahramin]

If you remain in VMC under VFR rules, you can be in controlled airspace with an IFR flight plan filed. There is no specific regulation against it. However, when you are already in controlled airspace and call for your clearance, there's no rule that says the controller has to give it to you.

So go ahead and disregard the proper procedure, you won't get violated as long as you remain VFR, but don't bitch if you can't get your clearance and have to fly the rest of the way VFR.

[whoop_whoop]

It's my understanding that you can depart VFR at any time, regardless of whether you've filed an IFR plan or not.

You would just squawk 1200 (assuming that you are not going to climb above 12,501' while maintaining VFR). You then fly as you would under VFR rules, avoiding class B, C or D airspace. Now, before you attempt to pick up your clearance, get out of class E airspace. You squawk 1000 (after leaving class E) and then contact an ATC unit for your clearance.

This way you're not already in class E airspace (which is controlled) when asking for a clearance since the clearance is required before entering controlled airspace

I would imagine that if you're airborne versus on the ground wouldn't normally make a difference if they were having to deny the issuance of a clearance for some reason or another.

[leftoftrack]

If you remain in VMC under VFR rules, you can be in controlled airspace with an IFR flight plan filed. There is no specific regulation against it. However, when you are already in controlled airspace and call for your clearance, there's no rule that says the controller has to give it to you.

So go ahead and disregard the proper procedure, you won't get violated as long as you remain VFR, but don't bitch if you can't get your clearance and have to fly the rest of the way VFR.

That is a hypothetical that happens never. If you can't get a clearance they'll let you know why and how to fix it e.g. "ATC suggests you take a heading of 270 for 3 miles to clear the 5 mile buffer with restricted airspace"

It's my understanding that you can depart VFR at any time, regardless of whether you've filed an IFR plan or not.

You would just squawk 1200 (assuming that you are not going to climb above 12,501' while maintaining VFR). You then fly as you would under VFR rules, avoiding class B, C or D airspace. Now, before you attempt to pick up your clearance, get out of class E airspace. You squawk 1000 (after leaving class E) and then contact an ATC unit for your clearance.

This way you're not already in class E airspace (which is controlled) when asking for a clearance since the clearance is required before entering controlled airspace

I would imagine that if you're airborne versus on the ground wouldn't normally make a difference if they were having to deny the issuance of a clearance for some reason or another.

Nope don't have to leave to re-enter class E your VFR until your IFR and your not IFR till you have accepted your clearance which means once you have a clearance to be where your at, your clear to be where your at

[photofly]

If you remain in VMC under VFR rules, you can be in controlled airspace with an IFR flight plan filed. There is no specific regulation against it. However, when you are already in controlled airspace and call for your clearance, there's no rule that says the controller has to give it to you.

So go ahead and disregard the proper procedure, you won't get violated as long as you remain VFR, but don't bitch if you can't get your clearance and have to fly the rest of the way VFR.

Ok, but by what reference is it "proper procedure"? I'm not being argumentative, I just want to read up on how it's supposed to be done. Generally things that aren't forbidden are permitted (you know the joke about Switzerland? There, whatever it is, if it's not forbidden then it's compulsory.)

By contrast, TC AIM RAC 7.10 says explicitly

At locations where communications with ATS is difficult, pilots may elect to dpart VFR and obtain the IFR clearance once airborne.

It doesn't say anything at all about remaining outside controlled airspace while doing so.

[kev994]

Just to be clear, even if the weather is VFR and you filed IFR, then you cannot enter class E airspace without getting a clearance. i.e. you cannot decide for yourself that you will just remain visual and climb into the airway to pick up clearance.

I think you are confusing this with the idea that if you pick up your clearance, say by phone, and it has a caveat such as "clearance not valid until XYZ has landed" you cannot then decide to depart VFR unless you get a VFR release. Just a guess.

[whoop_whoop]

Nope don't have to leave to re-enter class E your VFR until your IFR and your not IFR till you have accepted your clearance which means once you have a clearance to be where your at, your clear to be where your at

Hmmm good point. Is that where they might clear you "to the XYZ airport via present position direct ABC V101 blah blah blah"?

[ahramin]

I've always felt it's folly to argue semantics with anyone who has trouble differentiating your and you are. In any case it sounds like most of us are agreeing with each other but in different ways. I think we need to be clear about what we are talking about and make sure we agree on a few starting points. Does anyone disagree with the following:

1. It is best to get the clearance on the ground. A full IFR clearance is ideal, but any plan from center (even a VFR departure, expect clearance airborne) is better than nothing.

2. If you remain under VFR rules in VMC you can enter Class E without a clearance, even if you have an IFR flight plan filed.

3. If you cannot communicate with ATC on the ground (not everywhere has cell coverage and not everyone has a satphone) there's nothing wrong with getting the clearance in the air.

4. If you are IMC, you cannot enter controlled airspace without a clearance.

[leftoftrack]

I've always felt it's folly to argue semantics with anyone who has trouble differentiating your and you are. In any case it sounds like most of us are agreeing with each other but in different ways. I think we need to be clear about what we are talking about and make sure we agree on a few starting points. Does anyone disagree with the following:

1. It is best to get the clearance on the ground. A full IFR clearance is ideal, but any plan from center (even a VFR departure, expect clearance airborne) is better than nothing.

2. If you remain under VFR rules in VMC you can enter Class E without a clearance, even if you have an IFR flight plan filed.

3. If you cannot communicate with ATC on the ground (not everywhere has cell coverage and not everyone has a satphone) there's nothing wrong with getting the clearance in the air.

4. If you are IMC, you cannot enter controlled airspace without a clearance.

u r spot on. The only thing i would add is that if ur taking off without anyone paid to watch ie fss/cars then whos going to know your in IMC