Entering controlled IFR from uncontrolled airport
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, North Shore
Entering controlled IFR from uncontrolled airport
If you're departing an uncontrolled airport in IMC conditions that has controlled airspace directly above it (above 2200AGL), what's the preferred/expected way to get a clearance and enter?
Get clearance on the phone then blast into controlled airspace and contact center when reception allows?
Stay under/at 2200agl until reception allows contact then enter?
Thanks
Get clearance on the phone then blast into controlled airspace and contact center when reception allows?
Stay under/at 2200agl until reception allows contact then enter?
Thanks
Re: Entering controlled IFR from uncontrolled airport
Touchy subject,
If you were departing an airport contolled, technically you'd need the vfr release (not enforced outside of the MF). You got the inbetween airspace figured out, so you could depart vfr, and even enter controlled vmc.
It depends on where you are going, and how you are going to get there. It's specific to the situation, and unique each time. On a flt-plan, ifr, use the phone.
If you know it's not a skc day, use the itin-ifr/vfr.
Depart as you like, vmc-legal, exit the controlled area 5nm, then climb as you like in the uncontrolled to just below FL..
Pick up the clearance via FSS/CTR, as you like.
There really is no set rule, as long as you fall within the rules..
If you were departing an airport contolled, technically you'd need the vfr release (not enforced outside of the MF). You got the inbetween airspace figured out, so you could depart vfr, and even enter controlled vmc.
It depends on where you are going, and how you are going to get there. It's specific to the situation, and unique each time. On a flt-plan, ifr, use the phone.
If you know it's not a skc day, use the itin-ifr/vfr.
Depart as you like, vmc-legal, exit the controlled area 5nm, then climb as you like in the uncontrolled to just below FL..
Pick up the clearance via FSS/CTR, as you like.
There really is no set rule, as long as you fall within the rules..
Re: Entering controlled IFR from uncontrolled airport
Let's try this one,
departing bonnyville in IMC, or low ceilings anyway heading southwest (ignoring any CYR areas), it's in a 'white area' on the low chart so it's controlled down to ground level, or 2200' agl I guess. Obviously you can't get anyone from the ground so what's the best way to go about it that makes it easiest for all involved? I'm sure ATS doesn't like unidentified planes popping up on their radar without talking to them yet.
departing bonnyville in IMC, or low ceilings anyway heading southwest (ignoring any CYR areas), it's in a 'white area' on the low chart so it's controlled down to ground level, or 2200' agl I guess. Obviously you can't get anyone from the ground so what's the best way to go about it that makes it easiest for all involved? I'm sure ATS doesn't like unidentified planes popping up on their radar without talking to them yet.
Re: Entering controlled IFR from uncontrolled airport
Get a clearance on the ground by phone before you depart.
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Re: Entering controlled IFR from uncontrolled airport
If it is VFR out depart and pick up clearance and if it is low IFR get clearance on the phone otherwise you might get stuck bombing around low level if there is an IFR airplane in the vicinity. You won't get your clearance with him coming into Bonneyville.
Re: Entering controlled IFR from uncontrolled airport
+1ahramin wrote:Get a clearance on the ground by phone before you depart.
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Re: Entering controlled IFR from uncontrolled airport
Stay "VFR" until you get a clearance.
Re: Entering controlled IFR from uncontrolled airport
I can just imagine the cluster F#$% of getting ifr's via the phone in YBF on a Wednesday or Thursday. Even though it's the proper procedure.
Re: Entering controlled IFR from uncontrolled airport
Just to be clear, even if the weather is VFR and you filed IFR, then you cannot enter class E airspace without getting a clearance. i.e. you cannot decide for yourself that you will just remain visual and climb into the airway to pick up clearance.leftoftrack wrote:Stay "VFR" until you get a clearance.
Your choices are:
1. clearance by phone prior to departure.
2. remain clear of controlled airspace until you can get clearance in the air.
3. call FSS and ask for a VFR departure, then get clearance in the air.
Re: Entering controlled IFR from uncontrolled airport
I've always thought is was funny that an ifr filed a/c can't enter controlled airspace however any old fart cart can blast around vfr no problem prodvided they are not in class c airspace.
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Re: Entering controlled IFR from uncontrolled airport
yup you can. doesn't matter what you have filed your VFR until you accept your clearancejschnurr wrote:Just to be clear, even if the weather is VFR and you filed IFR, then you cannot enter class E airspace without getting a clearance. i.e. you cannot decide for yourself that you will just remain visual and climb into the airway to pick up clearance.leftoftrack wrote:Stay "VFR" until you get a clearance.
Your choices are:
1. clearance by phone prior to departure.
2. remain clear of controlled airspace until you can get clearance in the air.
3. call FSS and ask for a VFR departure, then get clearance in the air.
You can explain why not one person flying out of the eastern oil sands ever gets there clearance on the ground yet they climb through multiple low level air routes before they can get into radio range with center.
Re: Entering controlled IFR from uncontrolled airport
Can you give some reference to that requirement?jschnurr wrote:Just to be clear, even if the weather is VFR and you filed IFR, then you cannot enter class E airspace without getting a clearance. i.e. you cannot decide for yourself that you will just remain visual and climb into the airway to pick up clearance.leftoftrack wrote:Stay "VFR" until you get a clearance.
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
Re: Entering controlled IFR from uncontrolled airport
If you remain in VMC under VFR rules, you can be in controlled airspace with an IFR flight plan filed. There is no specific regulation against it. However, when you are already in controlled airspace and call for your clearance, there's no rule that says the controller has to give it to you.
So go ahead and disregard the proper procedure, you won't get violated as long as you remain VFR, but don't bitch if you can't get your clearance and have to fly the rest of the way VFR.
So go ahead and disregard the proper procedure, you won't get violated as long as you remain VFR, but don't bitch if you can't get your clearance and have to fly the rest of the way VFR.
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Re: Entering controlled IFR from uncontrolled airport
It's my understanding that you can depart VFR at any time, regardless of whether you've filed an IFR plan or not.
You would just squawk 1200 (assuming that you are not going to climb above 12,501' while maintaining VFR). You then fly as you would under VFR rules, avoiding class B, C or D airspace. Now, before you attempt to pick up your clearance, get out of class E airspace. You squawk 1000 (after leaving class E) and then contact an ATC unit for your clearance.
This way you're not already in class E airspace (which is controlled) when asking for a clearance since the clearance is required before entering controlled airspace
I would imagine that if you're airborne versus on the ground wouldn't normally make a difference if they were having to deny the issuance of a clearance for some reason or another.
You would just squawk 1200 (assuming that you are not going to climb above 12,501' while maintaining VFR). You then fly as you would under VFR rules, avoiding class B, C or D airspace. Now, before you attempt to pick up your clearance, get out of class E airspace. You squawk 1000 (after leaving class E) and then contact an ATC unit for your clearance.
This way you're not already in class E airspace (which is controlled) when asking for a clearance since the clearance is required before entering controlled airspace
I would imagine that if you're airborne versus on the ground wouldn't normally make a difference if they were having to deny the issuance of a clearance for some reason or another.
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Re: Entering controlled IFR from uncontrolled airport
That is a hypothetical that happens never. If you can't get a clearance they'll let you know why and how to fix it e.g. "ATC suggests you take a heading of 270 for 3 miles to clear the 5 mile buffer with restricted airspace"ahramin wrote:If you remain in VMC under VFR rules, you can be in controlled airspace with an IFR flight plan filed. There is no specific regulation against it. However, when you are already in controlled airspace and call for your clearance, there's no rule that says the controller has to give it to you.
So go ahead and disregard the proper procedure, you won't get violated as long as you remain VFR, but don't bitch if you can't get your clearance and have to fly the rest of the way VFR.
Nope don't have to leave to re-enter class E your VFR until your IFR and your not IFR till you have accepted your clearance which means once you have a clearance to be where your at, your clear to be where your atwhoop_whoop wrote:It's my understanding that you can depart VFR at any time, regardless of whether you've filed an IFR plan or not.
You would just squawk 1200 (assuming that you are not going to climb above 12,501' while maintaining VFR). You then fly as you would under VFR rules, avoiding class B, C or D airspace. Now, before you attempt to pick up your clearance, get out of class E airspace. You squawk 1000 (after leaving class E) and then contact an ATC unit for your clearance.
This way you're not already in class E airspace (which is controlled) when asking for a clearance since the clearance is required before entering controlled airspace
I would imagine that if you're airborne versus on the ground wouldn't normally make a difference if they were having to deny the issuance of a clearance for some reason or another.
Re: Entering controlled IFR from uncontrolled airport
Ok, but by what reference is it "proper procedure"? I'm not being argumentative, I just want to read up on how it's supposed to be done. Generally things that aren't forbidden are permitted (you know the joke about Switzerland? There, whatever it is, if it's not forbidden then it's compulsory.)ahramin wrote:If you remain in VMC under VFR rules, you can be in controlled airspace with an IFR flight plan filed. There is no specific regulation against it. However, when you are already in controlled airspace and call for your clearance, there's no rule that says the controller has to give it to you.
So go ahead and disregard the proper procedure, you won't get violated as long as you remain VFR, but don't bitch if you can't get your clearance and have to fly the rest of the way VFR.
By contrast, TC AIM RAC 7.10 says explicitly
It doesn't say anything at all about remaining outside controlled airspace while doing so.At locations where communications with ATS is difficult, pilots may elect to dpart VFR and obtain the IFR clearance once airborne.
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
Re: Entering controlled IFR from uncontrolled airport
I think you are confusing this with the idea that if you pick up your clearance, say by phone, and it has a caveat such as "clearance not valid until XYZ has landed" you cannot then decide to depart VFR unless you get a VFR release. Just a guess.jschnurr wrote:Just to be clear, even if the weather is VFR and you filed IFR, then you cannot enter class E airspace without getting a clearance. i.e. you cannot decide for yourself that you will just remain visual and climb into the airway to pick up clearance.
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Re: Entering controlled IFR from uncontrolled airport
Hmmm good point. Is that where they might clear you "to the XYZ airport via present position direct ABC V101 blah blah blah"?leftoftrack wrote:Nope don't have to leave to re-enter class E your VFR until your IFR and your not IFR till you have accepted your clearance which means once you have a clearance to be where your at, your clear to be where your at
Re: Entering controlled IFR from uncontrolled airport
I've always felt it's folly to argue semantics with anyone who has trouble differentiating your and you are. In any case it sounds like most of us are agreeing with each other but in different ways. I think we need to be clear about what we are talking about and make sure we agree on a few starting points. Does anyone disagree with the following:
1. It is best to get the clearance on the ground. A full IFR clearance is ideal, but any plan from center (even a VFR departure, expect clearance airborne) is better than nothing.
2. If you remain under VFR rules in VMC you can enter Class E without a clearance, even if you have an IFR flight plan filed.
3. If you cannot communicate with ATC on the ground (not everywhere has cell coverage and not everyone has a satphone) there's nothing wrong with getting the clearance in the air.
4. If you are IMC, you cannot enter controlled airspace without a clearance.
1. It is best to get the clearance on the ground. A full IFR clearance is ideal, but any plan from center (even a VFR departure, expect clearance airborne) is better than nothing.
2. If you remain under VFR rules in VMC you can enter Class E without a clearance, even if you have an IFR flight plan filed.
3. If you cannot communicate with ATC on the ground (not everywhere has cell coverage and not everyone has a satphone) there's nothing wrong with getting the clearance in the air.
4. If you are IMC, you cannot enter controlled airspace without a clearance.
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Re: Entering controlled IFR from uncontrolled airport
u r spot on. The only thing i would add is that if ur taking off without anyone paid to watch ie fss/cars then whos going to know your in IMCahramin wrote:I've always felt it's folly to argue semantics with anyone who has trouble differentiating your and you are. In any case it sounds like most of us are agreeing with each other but in different ways. I think we need to be clear about what we are talking about and make sure we agree on a few starting points. Does anyone disagree with the following:
1. It is best to get the clearance on the ground. A full IFR clearance is ideal, but any plan from center (even a VFR departure, expect clearance airborne) is better than nothing.
2. If you remain under VFR rules in VMC you can enter Class E without a clearance, even if you have an IFR flight plan filed.
3. If you cannot communicate with ATC on the ground (not everywhere has cell coverage and not everyone has a satphone) there's nothing wrong with getting the clearance in the air.
4. If you are IMC, you cannot enter controlled airspace without a clearance.