New CPA and flowthrough to Air Canada?

[Stinky]

That's the plan. 2-3 years in the right seat. Go skipper then off to AC via the PML 2.0

I'll be totally shocked if we start to see 3 year upgrade times at Jazz, although I've been pretty shocked at how the industry has changed over the last 5 years.

Where did you get that number? I'm not disputing it, but is it based on any projections or just a gut feeling.

[rudder]

With over half the pilots leaving and another ??? retiring over the next few years, could the upgrade times at Jazz be coming down?

Not all PML pilots will be offered employment by AC. Some rejected already. Average age of a Captain at Jazz falls somewhere between 50-54. The vast majority in the 50+ range are not participating in the PMA process making a high acceptance rate of the senior PML pilots by AC critical to any cost reduction objectives manifesting themselves prior to 2026.

As for upgrades, planned fleet reductions will eliminate 100-150 Captain slots over time. Most of the PML list is populated by Jazz FO's so once the initial departure wave of senior PML pilots is over there will only be Capt attrition via normal retirement and early retirement incentives. Approximately 440 mandatory retirements forecast between 2015-2026.

Upgrade timing for Jazz pilots hired in 2015 is likely still 6+ years. Those hired after 2015 will have decreasing wait times for upgrade.

[aV1aTOr]

With over half the pilots leaving and another ??? retiring over the next few years, could the upgrade times at Jazz be coming down?

Not all PML pilots will be offered employment by AC. Some rejected already. Average age of a Captain at Jazz falls somewhere between 50-54. The vast majority in the 50+ range are not participating in the PMA process making a high acceptance rate of the senior PML pilots by AC critical to any cost reduction objectives manifesting themselves prior to 2026.

As for upgrades, planned fleet reductions will eliminate 100-150 Captain slots over time. Most of the PML list is populated by Jazz FO's so once the initial departure wave of senior PML pilots is over there will only be Capt attrition via normal retirement and early retirement incentives. Approximately 440 mandatory retirements forecast between 2015-2026.

Upgrade timing for Jazz pilots hired in 2015 is likely still 6+ years. Those hired after 2015 will have decreasing wait times for upgrade.

Now rudder, why would you go and shoot down a perfectly juicy projection with the facts and realism? That's not in line with the spirit of AvCanada you know. You might want to take a long look in the mirror before another post like that. Shame on you.

[Krimson]

With over half the pilots leaving and another ??? retiring over the next few years, could the upgrade times at Jazz be coming down?

Not all PML pilots will be offered employment by AC. Some rejected already. Average age of a Captain at Jazz falls somewhere between 50-54. The vast majority in the 50+ range are not participating in the PMA process making a high acceptance rate of the senior PML pilots by AC critical to any cost reduction objectives manifesting themselves prior to 2026.

As for upgrades, planned fleet reductions will eliminate 100-150 Captain slots over time. Most of the PML list is populated by Jazz FO's so once the initial departure wave of senior PML pilots is over there will only be Capt attrition via normal retirement and early retirement incentives. Approximately 440 mandatory retirements forecast between 2015-2026.

Upgrade timing for Jazz pilots hired in 2015 is likely still 6+ years. Those hired after 2015 will have decreasing wait times for upgrade.

Thanks for the straight forward post. What's your take on the "PML 2.0"?

[rudder]

Thanks for the straight forward post. What's your take on the "PML 2.0"?

Going forward, both AC and WJ are going to have problems staffing their respective regional feed networks in a market with diminishing pilot resources. And this is at a time that AC in particular is looking at its largest and longest pilot hiring cycle in its history which will further deplete the Express pilot rosters.

Each one will have to offer inducements via their regional partners in order to secure the interest of the finite pool of new entrants to the profession. AC may choose to do so by making hiring exclusive from the Express PML. Perhaps it will be something different. Either way, if the Express/Encore aircraft are not staffed then the impact will be felt on the bottom line at AC/WJ.

I would not rule out a strategic acquisition or a new commercial agreement with an existing carrier in order to ensure full pilot staffing in the Express or Encore networks.

[fruitloops]

Not sure it the best topic to post on but i try.

Got a call from jazz for an interview on the 24th feb. I'm captain on bi-turbine making 75k/year, with a family. I also can get 705 time in my company in the next months (dash8), i just don't like the place i live. My question to you guys is :

- What does jazz has to offer in term of career advancement to me, on mid or long term ? As i would not stay at jazz anyway but try to find a "better" job as soon as i can.

Living on 3000$/month with a family in YYZ or YYC to fly dash8 or Q4 seems not really attractive but maybe i'm missing something.

Please feel free to share your thoughts, it'll really help me take a decision.

Cheers

Dunkafa - did you go to the bottom of Jazz or did you do a DEC with Sky or GGN or ? ....as Bieber would say....'where are you now?"

[TheStig]

Alright, so we're approaching the 2 year mark since the start of this thread. Any comments from those who have been involved?

Have things gone as expected? Better? Worse?

I can't imagine voting on the deal or signing onto the PML was an easy decision for most, but have you been satisfied with your choice? Things have been moving swiftly at AC and it seems like most pilots who have come over are pleased to have done so but looking at the numbers it would appear that at least half the pilots on the PML have deferred there employment (or been rejected).

How has the fleet at Jazz changed? I've noticed lots of RJ"s been transfered to GGN, will the Q400 and CRJ900 addtiions offset this or has the hiring been solely due to attrition from the PML?

There was talk of a classic Dash-8 airline at the time, is this still in the works or is it simply a pay scale within the pay scale?

[ThatFliGuyDerr]

Future PML is in the works. The company has said that this time Air Canada will souly dictate the terms of that PML. it is said to be released sometime this fall. That was the last statement from the union a week ago. Lots of vacancies in all bases. Sounds like the terms of the PML will be 70 percent of SC GS will be from all express carriers. But I believe the PML will have to sound good to draw in people to fill the seats at JAZZ,GGN,REGIONAL, Because AC needs 400 guys jazz needs 150 Encore needs 200 Westjet needs 90 and that's just the companies I have friends at. Those numbers are VACANCIES so companies are going to need to get creative to attract people who a shortage like this.

[Art Garfunkel]

This is just my opinion.

I don't think AC will be able to pull that many from the express carriers, as the feed is very important to their growth strategy. They will simply say no to the more senior guys at the regionals to retain experience, as these guys/girls will have no where else to go. Pay will stay low as well. Air Canada in particular has been successful in lowering the amount "years of service pay" at the regionals in the past 3 years.

I believe the new AC PML/PMA will have language that sounds promising to the express carriers, but in reality will be around the 30-40 percent mark. If you want to get on with Air Canada, in my opinion, you're best positioned to be from Encore, Porter, Bearskin, Provincial, or EIC. Complete opposite of what is being sold. Please read the fine print when the agreement gets disclosed.

Art

[dhc#]

This is just my opinion.

I don't think AC will be able to pull that many from the express carriers, as the feed is very important to their growth strategy. They will simply say no to the more senior guys at the regionals to retain experience, as these guys/girls will have no where else to go. Pay will stay low as well. Air Canada in particular has been successful in lowering the amount "years of service pay" at the regionals in the past 3 years.

I believe the new AC PML/PMA will have language that sounds promising to the express carriers, but in reality will be around the 30-40 percent mark. If you want to get on with Air Canada, in my opinion, you're best positioned to be from Encore, Porter, Bearskin, Provincial, or EIC. Complete opposite of what is being sold. Please read the fine print when the agreement gets disclosed.

Art

AC will have to walk a fine line regarding the next PML/PMA, if your scenario plays out, once potential AC regional new hires realize they could end up stuck at JZZ/SKV/GGN, they will avoid them like the plague, especially if they can get hired directly in AC mainline, by staying at the better salaried 704 ops and avoiding the low pay at the regionals.

[Inverted2]

Don't forget that it's just an interview at AC, not a true flow through. Approx 30% of Jazz pilots were turned down in the first PML. Most were great guys/gals with 10,000 hours and good employees... If you want a true flowthrough look south of the border or what WJ/Encore are doing.

[altiplano]

true flowthrough

"True" would be if you have a # and a spot - period.

I think the iterations in Canada you mention are more contingent on being a suckass and not standing up for yourself until you get to the show... ie. being "jetty" enough...

[TheStig]

Don't forget that it's just an interview at AC, not a true flow through. Approx 30% of Jazz pilots were turned down in the first PML. Most were great guys/gals with 10,000 hours and good employees... If you want a true flowthrough look south of the border or what WJ/Encore are doing.

I thought there was contractual language in the PML that required AC to hire a certain percentage of pilots on the PML? 80%-90%?

[Old fella]

Don't forget that it's just an interview at AC, not a true flow through. Approx 30% of Jazz pilots were turned down in the first PML. Most were great guys/gals with 10,000 hours and good employees... If you want a true flowthrough look south of the border or what WJ/Encore are doing.

Why were those guys/gals with such a background turned down by AC

[Art Garfunkel]

At Sky Regional we were asked to forward a resume to Air Canada by Aug 31st, 2015. Out of aproximately 200 pilots on our list at the time probably 75 percent forwarded their resume. Then Air Canada proceeded with a telephone interview to those who applied and I would say about 30 out of 150 were given offers/conditional offers for employment. About 20 percent were successful with the common denominator being Seneca, Sault, the school in Chicoutimi, or a university degree. The whole time the company advertised it as a flow through or a genuine PML/PMA. Many pilots had B757/B767, A320 or other significant experience (over 10K hrs) received emails within 24 hours saying that they were not qualified. Even after being in the left seat of the same type (E175/E190), using Air Canada dispatched flight plans and procedures, they were not qualified. WTF???

Sky Regional needed to act fast as they lost close to 30 pilots that summer to both Sunwing and Air Transat.

I am very curious to see what language will be used in the new agreement but I am not expecting much as experience in the left seat (of 705 operation airlines) is at an all time low. Air Canada can't afford to lose that experience, or have it go lower at the regional level, so I expect them to drain both Encore and Porter. And don't expect the pay to increase (at AC express carriers) as options, for the more experienced guys/girls being held back, are limited.


My opinion only,

Art

[Inverted2]

Don't forget that it's just an interview at AC, not a true flow through. Approx 30% of Jazz pilots were turned down in the first PML. Most were great guys/gals with 10,000 hours and good employees... If you want a true flowthrough look south of the border or what WJ/Encore are doing.

I thought there was contractual language in the PML that required AC to hire a certain percentage of pilots on the PML? 80%-90%?

Correct. The ground schools had 16/20 pilots from Jazz(80%) but there were way more people from Jazz that wanted to go than they had to take so the numbers game came up. I think roughly 700 put their names to go but they only guaranteed 495 spots I believe.

[infiniteregulus]

At Sky Regional we were asked to forward a resume to Air Canada by Aug 31st, 2015. Out of aproximately 200 pilots on our list at the time probably 75 percent forwarded their resume. Then Air Canada proceeded with a telephone interview to those who applied and I would say about 30 out of 150 were given offers/conditional offers for employment. About 20 percent were successful with the common denominator being Seneca, Sault, the school in Chicoutimi, or a university degree. The whole time the company advertised it as a flow through or a genuine PML/PMA. Many pilots had B757/B767, A320 or other significant experience (over 10K hrs) received emails within 24 hours saying that they were not qualified. Even after being in the left seat of the same type (E175/E190), using Air Canada dispatched flight plans and procedures, they were not qualified. WTF???

Sky Regional needed to act fast as they lost close to 30 pilots that summer to both Sunwing and Air Transat.

I am very curious to see what language will be used in the new agreement but I am not expecting much as experience in the left seat (of 705 operation airlines) is at an all time low. Air Canada can't afford to lose that experience, or have it go lower at the regional level, so I expect them to drain both Encore and Porter. And don't expect the pay to increase (at AC express carriers) as options, for the more experienced guys/girls being held back, are limited.


My opinion only,

Art

This seemed to have been the case with the express carriers for Sky and Georgian. Jazz obviously had a more structured and actual in-writing agreement, with Sky and GGN arbitrarily filling in the remainder 20%. A lot of highly qualified, highly experienced, great personality, great work ethic, great piloting skill and knowledge, high seniority guys getting PFOd or passed by others lesser so and/or lower in seniority, for no reason whatsoever. Easily a roll of the dice and not played well by the companies. They lost a ton of dedicated guys to "the competition". A real shame really.

[dhc#]

At Sky Regional we were asked to forward a resume to Air Canada by Aug 31st, 2015. Out of aproximately 200 pilots on our list at the time probably 75 percent forwarded their resume. Then Air Canada proceeded with a telephone interview to those who applied and I would say about 30 out of 150 were given offers/conditional offers for employment. About 20 percent were successful with the common denominator being Seneca, Sault, the school in Chicoutimi, or a university degree. The whole time the company advertised it as a flow through or a genuine PML/PMA. Many pilots had B757/B767, A320 or other significant experience (over 10K hrs) received emails within 24 hours saying that they were not qualified. Even after being in the left seat of the same type (E175/E190), using Air Canada dispatched flight plans and procedures, they were not qualified. WTF???

Sky Regional needed to act fast as they lost close to 30 pilots that summer to both Sunwing and Air Transat.

I am very curious to see what language will be used in the new agreement but I am not expecting much as experience in the left seat (of 705 operation airlines) is at an all time low. Air Canada can't afford to lose that experience, or have it go lower at the regional level, so I expect them to drain both Encore and Porter. And don't expect the pay to increase (at AC express carriers) as options, for the more experienced guys/girls being held back, are limited.


My opinion only,

Art

This seemed to have been the case with the express carriers for Sky and Georgian. Jazz obviously had a more structured and actual in-writing agreement, with Sky and GGN arbitrarily filling in the remainder 20%. A lot of highly qualified, highly experienced, great personality, great work ethic, great piloting skill and knowledge, high seniority guys getting PFOd or passed by others lesser so and/or lower in seniority, for no reason whatsoever. Easily a roll of the dice and not played well by the companies. They lost a ton of dedicated guys to "the competition". A real shame really.

Would appear that the "go to AC connector to get to AC" game is rigged.

[BingBong]

FPML is posted on JazzNet Memo's

Coles notes:
- "Up to" 80% from CPA carriers, on proportional basis
- No seniority reservation
- No FIP
- Carrier jumping to jump the queue for a shorter list discouraged by policy
- 6 month travel probation waived for employees with valid travel privileges.
- 2000TT min with ATPL

[Rowdy]

FPML is posted on JazzNet Memo's

Coles notes:
- "Up to" 80% from CPA carriers, on proportional basis
- No seniority reservation
- No FIP
- Carrier jumping to jump the queue for a shorter list discouraged by policy
- 6 month travel probation waived for employees with valid travel privileges.
- 2000TT min with ATPL

Also noted : '.........for as long as their employer has a capacity purchase agreement (CPA) with Air Canada in effect.'

That one makes you go hmmmmmm