New CPA and flowthrough to Air Canada?

[Inverted2]

Don't forget that it's just an interview at AC, not a true flow through. Approx 30% of Jazz pilots were turned down in the first PML. Most were great guys/gals with 10,000 hours and good employees... If you want a true flowthrough look south of the border or what WJ/Encore are doing.

[altiplano]

true flowthrough

"True" would be if you have a # and a spot - period.

I think the iterations in Canada you mention are more contingent on being a suckass and not standing up for yourself until you get to the show... ie. being "jetty" enough...

[TheStig]

Don't forget that it's just an interview at AC, not a true flow through. Approx 30% of Jazz pilots were turned down in the first PML. Most were great guys/gals with 10,000 hours and good employees... If you want a true flowthrough look south of the border or what WJ/Encore are doing.

I thought there was contractual language in the PML that required AC to hire a certain percentage of pilots on the PML? 80%-90%?

[Old fella]

Don't forget that it's just an interview at AC, not a true flow through. Approx 30% of Jazz pilots were turned down in the first PML. Most were great guys/gals with 10,000 hours and good employees... If you want a true flowthrough look south of the border or what WJ/Encore are doing.

Why were those guys/gals with such a background turned down by AC

[Art Garfunkel]

At Sky Regional we were asked to forward a resume to Air Canada by Aug 31st, 2015. Out of aproximately 200 pilots on our list at the time probably 75 percent forwarded their resume. Then Air Canada proceeded with a telephone interview to those who applied and I would say about 30 out of 150 were given offers/conditional offers for employment. About 20 percent were successful with the common denominator being Seneca, Sault, the school in Chicoutimi, or a university degree. The whole time the company advertised it as a flow through or a genuine PML/PMA. Many pilots had B757/B767, A320 or other significant experience (over 10K hrs) received emails within 24 hours saying that they were not qualified. Even after being in the left seat of the same type (E175/E190), using Air Canada dispatched flight plans and procedures, they were not qualified. WTF???

Sky Regional needed to act fast as they lost close to 30 pilots that summer to both Sunwing and Air Transat.

I am very curious to see what language will be used in the new agreement but I am not expecting much as experience in the left seat (of 705 operation airlines) is at an all time low. Air Canada can't afford to lose that experience, or have it go lower at the regional level, so I expect them to drain both Encore and Porter. And don't expect the pay to increase (at AC express carriers) as options, for the more experienced guys/girls being held back, are limited.


My opinion only,

Art

[Inverted2]

Don't forget that it's just an interview at AC, not a true flow through. Approx 30% of Jazz pilots were turned down in the first PML. Most were great guys/gals with 10,000 hours and good employees... If you want a true flowthrough look south of the border or what WJ/Encore are doing.

I thought there was contractual language in the PML that required AC to hire a certain percentage of pilots on the PML? 80%-90%?

Correct. The ground schools had 16/20 pilots from Jazz(80%) but there were way more people from Jazz that wanted to go than they had to take so the numbers game came up. I think roughly 700 put their names to go but they only guaranteed 495 spots I believe.

[infiniteregulus]

At Sky Regional we were asked to forward a resume to Air Canada by Aug 31st, 2015. Out of aproximately 200 pilots on our list at the time probably 75 percent forwarded their resume. Then Air Canada proceeded with a telephone interview to those who applied and I would say about 30 out of 150 were given offers/conditional offers for employment. About 20 percent were successful with the common denominator being Seneca, Sault, the school in Chicoutimi, or a university degree. The whole time the company advertised it as a flow through or a genuine PML/PMA. Many pilots had B757/B767, A320 or other significant experience (over 10K hrs) received emails within 24 hours saying that they were not qualified. Even after being in the left seat of the same type (E175/E190), using Air Canada dispatched flight plans and procedures, they were not qualified. WTF???

Sky Regional needed to act fast as they lost close to 30 pilots that summer to both Sunwing and Air Transat.

I am very curious to see what language will be used in the new agreement but I am not expecting much as experience in the left seat (of 705 operation airlines) is at an all time low. Air Canada can't afford to lose that experience, or have it go lower at the regional level, so I expect them to drain both Encore and Porter. And don't expect the pay to increase (at AC express carriers) as options, for the more experienced guys/girls being held back, are limited.


My opinion only,

Art

This seemed to have been the case with the express carriers for Sky and Georgian. Jazz obviously had a more structured and actual in-writing agreement, with Sky and GGN arbitrarily filling in the remainder 20%. A lot of highly qualified, highly experienced, great personality, great work ethic, great piloting skill and knowledge, high seniority guys getting PFOd or passed by others lesser so and/or lower in seniority, for no reason whatsoever. Easily a roll of the dice and not played well by the companies. They lost a ton of dedicated guys to "the competition". A real shame really.

[dhc#]

At Sky Regional we were asked to forward a resume to Air Canada by Aug 31st, 2015. Out of aproximately 200 pilots on our list at the time probably 75 percent forwarded their resume. Then Air Canada proceeded with a telephone interview to those who applied and I would say about 30 out of 150 were given offers/conditional offers for employment. About 20 percent were successful with the common denominator being Seneca, Sault, the school in Chicoutimi, or a university degree. The whole time the company advertised it as a flow through or a genuine PML/PMA. Many pilots had B757/B767, A320 or other significant experience (over 10K hrs) received emails within 24 hours saying that they were not qualified. Even after being in the left seat of the same type (E175/E190), using Air Canada dispatched flight plans and procedures, they were not qualified. WTF???

Sky Regional needed to act fast as they lost close to 30 pilots that summer to both Sunwing and Air Transat.

I am very curious to see what language will be used in the new agreement but I am not expecting much as experience in the left seat (of 705 operation airlines) is at an all time low. Air Canada can't afford to lose that experience, or have it go lower at the regional level, so I expect them to drain both Encore and Porter. And don't expect the pay to increase (at AC express carriers) as options, for the more experienced guys/girls being held back, are limited.


My opinion only,

Art

This seemed to have been the case with the express carriers for Sky and Georgian. Jazz obviously had a more structured and actual in-writing agreement, with Sky and GGN arbitrarily filling in the remainder 20%. A lot of highly qualified, highly experienced, great personality, great work ethic, great piloting skill and knowledge, high seniority guys getting PFOd or passed by others lesser so and/or lower in seniority, for no reason whatsoever. Easily a roll of the dice and not played well by the companies. They lost a ton of dedicated guys to "the competition". A real shame really.

Would appear that the "go to AC connector to get to AC" game is rigged.

[BingBong]

FPML is posted on JazzNet Memo's

Coles notes:
- "Up to" 80% from CPA carriers, on proportional basis
- No seniority reservation
- No FIP
- Carrier jumping to jump the queue for a shorter list discouraged by policy
- 6 month travel probation waived for employees with valid travel privileges.
- 2000TT min with ATPL

[Rowdy]

FPML is posted on JazzNet Memo's

Coles notes:
- "Up to" 80% from CPA carriers, on proportional basis
- No seniority reservation
- No FIP
- Carrier jumping to jump the queue for a shorter list discouraged by policy
- 6 month travel probation waived for employees with valid travel privileges.
- 2000TT min with ATPL

Also noted : '.........for as long as their employer has a capacity purchase agreement (CPA) with Air Canada in effect.'

That one makes you go hmmmmmm

[skypirate88]

I think we just need to wait and see what this thing turns into. The small, 2 page document I have seen is very vague, and provides very little information.

The carrot is certainly being dangled, but I think AC will be walking a very fine line. They will need to hire enough from the Express brand to keep people interested, but not too many that they gut the regional feed.

The big thing I saw in the release was that AC would aim to hire up to 80% of their recruitment needs from the CPA carriers. With language like that, I wouldn't leave a well paying 704/5 job to join the Express guys just yet.

[BingBong]

I think we just need to wait and see what this thing turns into. The small, 2 page document I have seen is very vague, and provides very little information.
.

This makes me laugh.

We didn't get much more in writing the first time around....if anything actually.

[dhc#]

FPML is posted on JazzNet Memo's

Coles notes:
- "Up to" 80% from CPA carriers, on proportional basis
- No seniority reservation
- No FIP
- Carrier jumping to jump the queue for a shorter list discouraged by policy
- 6 month travel probation waived for employees with valid travel privileges.
- 2000TT min with ATPL

What department(s) came up with these guidelines (policy) ?

[skypirate88]

I think we just need to wait and see what this thing turns into. The small, 2 page document I have seen is very vague, and provides very little information.
.

This makes me laugh.

We didn't get much more in writing the first time around....if anything actually.

Well I wasn't around for the first list so I don't really know how it all unfolded. I've been flying for a decade, so I've seen companies say one thing and do the opposite. I've had some carrots dangled before only to see it all disappear. Right now, it just seems early to be too excited by this given the information we have.

[TheStig]

This flow through arrangement doesn't seem very popular on here. Hard to argue that it isn't used as a recruitment tool by the connectors to attract pilots to fly for low wages while giving those pilots no guarantee of getting hired at mainline.

If you're outside of the connectors this makes it more difficult to get hired and if you're inside the connectors there aren't any certainties. Over the next couple years, pilots that flow through will probably think the system worked alright, and obviously those that don't will think it didn't.

The difference between the AC and WJ systems, as best I can see, is that Encore is really more like a separate aircraft type within the airline (as WJe is entirely owned by WJ) if you're flying at Encore, you work for Westjet. Whereas, the AC connectors are separate airlines/companies and it's hard to imagine AC's Human Resources would be willing to outsource its hiring to other companies.

Thing is, there have never been any certainties, right from the day you finish your CPL, and this isn't any different. It is, however, still the most likely way to get hired.

[av8ts]

All the PML is is a guaranteed interview. And if you get hired no 6 month wait for travel passes. Nothing else. I believe at Encore/WJ it is an actual flow through with seniority

[mbav8r]

As has already been pointed out, the difference being Encore is wholly owned and the process for interview and hiring set up for WJ from day one.
A guarantee of an interview is just that, a guarantee, what are your odds of getting an interview OTS?
Will this ever change? If there is a shortage of pilots and flights are getting cancelled, I suppose they might need to evaluate an alternative. Maybe just the pay will go up, maybe pay and a true flow like the US carriers are implementing. Given the current practice of taking fresh college grads for vacancies, it'll be a while before we'll see this, if ever.

[flymore]

Can any Jazz pilots (at AC OR thinking of going to AC) out there give insight on whether it is worth it to leave Jazz? Just want some thoughts before signing up for the new PML.

I understand that movement is at a feverish pace at Air Canada, but I'm concerned that after leaving Jazz (assuming a successful recruitment process of course), I may be stuck at just that wrong AC seniority number. There's going to be hundreds of new hires before me and they will be getting their picks before my turn comes. And then, the movement slows down at some point in the future. Everyone will pretty much be stuck at where they are and just wait for the next cycle to get things moving again.

It seems a tad pessimistic but there has to be a point where it's too late to move to AC and you're better off just staying where you are with a higher seniority?

Of course, apart from that, any other factors worth looking into such as pay, pension, lifestyle, company culture etc?

[402_pilot]

Can any Jazz pilots (at AC OR thinking of going to AC) out there give insight on whether it is worth it to leave Jazz? Just want some thoughts before signing up for the new PML.

I understand that movement is at a feverish pace at Air Canada, but I'm concerned that after leaving Jazz (assuming a successful recruitment process of course), I may be stuck at just that wrong AC seniority number. There's going to be hundreds of new hires before me and they will be getting their picks before my turn comes. And then, the movement slows down at some point in the future. Everyone will pretty much be stuck at where they are and just wait for the next cycle to get things moving again.

It seems a tad pessimistic but there has to be a point where it's too late to move to AC and you're better off just staying where you are with a higher seniority?

Of course, apart from that, any other factors worth looking into such as pay, pension, lifestyle, company culture etc?

I was on the first PML, went for the interview and got hired. In the end, after a lot of thinking, I decided to turn down the offer and in doing so take a pay cut to stay at Jazz.

Lifestyle and seniority did play a role in why I decided to stay even with knowing that at AC there are mass retirements on the horizon, but I think the nature of the work at Jazz is what I find most appealing... that perfect balance of everything, good people, good training, good schedule, ok pay and more "hands-on" flying.

However, thats me... Im not a one leg to the hotel and go visit another country on every pairing type of guy. Some people like that stuff and thats alright, everyone has their own thing and if AC is what YOU want than go for it, I think seniority wont be an issue.