Bargaining idea

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Mart
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Bargaining idea

Post by Mart » Sun Apr 01, 2018 1:35 pm

Hi, I keep hearing Jazz is now lock into a 10 years cost neutral collective agreement and even if they are in bargaining since 2016 according to ALPA, nothing as change or improve.

So, what do you think if the B scaler, who are probably the majority at Jazz, request a wage freeze for the pre 2015 hire and have their wage increase twice as much as they are today until they close the gap between A scale and B scale. Now everyone might see how bad of an agreement this is and the wheel might start turning like it does in the states. What do you think? Is it something ALPA or the young kids at Jazz will push forward or everyone’s are still blindfolded by that AC carrots. ???
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by Oxi » Sun Apr 01, 2018 2:01 pm

The new contract pilots are not the majority ... yet
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by fish4life » Sun Apr 01, 2018 2:01 pm

therein lies the issue with throwing the young under the bus, once the young out number the old they can throw the old under the bus for their own improvements.
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by confusedalot » Sun Apr 01, 2018 5:44 pm

I think it is a very difficult catch 22 situation, the young, actually nobody, should be thrown under the bus as far as I am concerned.

If the old get thrown under however, the young will only have whatever they negotiated to look forward to when they in turn get old.
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by genetic jack hammer » Mon Apr 02, 2018 7:27 am

Mart wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 1:35 pm
Hi, I keep hearing Jazz is now lock into a 10 years cost neutral collective agreement and even if they are in bargaining since 2016 according to ALPA, nothing as change or improve.

So, what do you think if the B scaler, who are probably the majority at Jazz, request a wage freeze for the pre 2015 hire and have their wage increase twice as much as they are today until they close the gap between A scale and B scale. Now everyone might see how bad of an agreement this is and the wheel might start turning like it does in the states. What do you think? Is it something ALPA or the young kids at Jazz will push forward or everyone’s are still blindfolded by that AC carrots. ???

IMO stupidest thing i've read here...so far. You don't like your post 2015 wages so you suggest a wage freeze for those who have been here from the old contract? WOW....and how exactly were you forced into taking a job at Jazz, against your will? With all the resources out there, getting info on salaries is not that difficult, before accepting an offer.
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by montado » Mon Apr 02, 2018 7:43 am

I think the fact is a tonne of Jazz flying would have left for sky and GGN if they did not create another scale. It’s not as simple as the old generation screwed the new one.

Anyways, if you really want to do your part, all you new B scale pilots. Don’t work OT. Everyone is chomping at the bits to work OT. Until the flying can’t be done due to staffing I guess everyone is happy with their wage. You guys sign up and pay for flica alerts and lick your lips for open time. Makes me laugh. Why pay more when you have a line of people who can’t wait to work.

When my OT rate is less than the regular rate of equal years on the A scale you think I’m gonna waste my day going to work? Doing my part anyway.
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by genetic jack hammer » Mon Apr 02, 2018 8:11 am

Better yet, if you don't like the wages, just don't apply in the first place.
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by rudder » Mon Apr 02, 2018 8:18 am

genetic jack hammer wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 8:11 am
Better yet, if you know what the wages are, just don't apply in the first place.
That initiative alone with broad support will have the quickest and most significant impact on the compensation Jazz must offer to attract new-hire Pilots. Same theory applies to any other tier 2 carrier offering low ball new-hire wages.
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Mart
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by Mart » Mon Apr 02, 2018 8:24 am

genetic jack hammer wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 7:27 am
Mart wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 1:35 pm
Hi, I keep hearing Jazz is now lock into a 10 years cost neutral collective agreement and even if they are in bargaining since 2016 according to ALPA, nothing as change or improve.

So, what do you think if the B scaler, who are probably the majority at Jazz, request a wage freeze for the pre 2015 hire and have their wage increase twice as much as they are today until they close the gap between A scale and B scale. Now everyone might see how bad of an agreement this is and the wheel might start turning like it does in the states. What do you think? Is it something ALPA or the young kids at Jazz will push forward or everyone’s are still blindfolded by that AC carrots. ???

IMO stupidest thing i've read here...so far. You don't like your post 2015 wages so you suggest a wage freeze for those who have been here from the old contract? WOW....and how exactly were you forced into taking a job at Jazz, against your will? With all the resources out there, getting info on salaries is not that difficult, before accepting an offer.
Hey don't shoot the mailman, I'm just letting the words out. :wink:

I'm a free man and wasn't force to take anything from anyone. Never heard of the butterfly effect?. Aren't you tired of seen no improvement whatsoever in the Canadian market even though every one is hiring and the business is booming everywhere. Stock hits record high after record but we see nothing at the employee level. Any improvement done by AC,JAZZ, ENCORE, WJ, GRG, SKY, TS... name any other you like, will have a ripple effect on all the others. Yes, Including me :D
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Mart
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by Mart » Mon Apr 02, 2018 8:27 am

montado wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 7:43 am
I think the fact is a tonne of Jazz flying would have left for sky and GGN if they did not create another scale. It’s not as simple as the old generation screwed the new one.

Anyways, if you really want to do your part, all you new B scale pilots. Don’t work OT. Everyone is chomping at the bits to work OT. Until the flying can’t be done due to staffing I guess everyone is happy with their wage. You guys sign up and pay for flica alerts and lick your lips for open time. Makes me laugh. Why pay more when you have a line of people who can’t wait to work.

When my OT rate is less than the regular rate of equal years on the A scale you think I’m gonna waste my day going to work? Doing my part anyway.
And have you found any of your coworker doing the same thing? Or ALPA support that idea?
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by Mart » Mon Apr 02, 2018 8:51 am

rudder wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 8:18 am
genetic jack hammer wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 8:11 am
Better yet, if you know what the wages are, just don't apply in the first place.
That initiative alone with broad support will have the quickest and most significant impact on the compensation Jazz must offer to attract new-hire Pilots. Same theory applies to any other tier 2 carrier offering low ball new-hire wages.
You are probably living in a realm of unicorns. You think doctor get millions of dollar because no one shows up at an interview?

How about the maids who clean up your mess after you left the hotel? I’m pretty sure Hotel human ressource aren’t overwhelmed with resume of future candidates dreaming of cleaning mess.

The reality is, there will be always someone somewhere that will be in need of a job. Now the sooner you accept this fact, the sooner we will be able to find better idea to improve Canadian business. So that everyone will benefits of a better share of the pie not just the shareholders.
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by montado » Mon Apr 02, 2018 8:58 am

Mart wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 8:27 am
And have you found any of your coworker doing the same thing? Or ALPA support that idea?
I’m not here to start a movement. This is not an ALPA initiative, this is just my personal stance that I’ll spend the day on the beach, at the park, or at home with family before I’ll bother to work a day off for my OT rate. You do you.

I think plenty of the new jazz pilots never made a pay check coming straight from college. They are probably pretty happy with the pay. Probably only they guys that left captain gig up north for a shot at AC are pissed about the pay.

Anyways everyone has their situation, their grievance their attitude. I’m not going to get caught up in it all. Respectfully do my job and that’s it. If the pay goes up I’ll be more inclined to cover a wdo here or there.
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by genetic jack hammer » Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:59 am

Mart wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 8:51 am
rudder wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 8:18 am
genetic jack hammer wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 8:11 am
Better yet, if you know what the wages are, just don't apply in the first place.
That initiative alone with broad support will have the quickest and most significant impact on the compensation Jazz must offer to attract new-hire Pilots. Same theory applies to any other tier 2 carrier offering low ball new-hire wages.
You are probably living in a realm of unicorns. You think doctor get millions of dollar because no one shows up at an interview?

How about the maids who clean up your mess after you left the hotel? I’m pretty sure Hotel human ressource aren’t overwhelmed with resume of future candidates dreaming of cleaning mess.

The reality is, there will be always someone somewhere that will be in need of a job. Now the sooner you accept this fact, the sooner we will be able to find better idea to improve Canadian business. So that everyone will benefits of a better share of the pie not just the shareholders.
Your maid vs. pilot analogy is weak. Most people don't envision a career in cleaning up rooms. They do it to put a roof over their head, food on the table, for them and possibly their kids.

Don't like the post 2015 salary at Jazz? Make sure to mention that, when you politely decline the job offer. If many more did this, it might start a change. But to suggest that a wage freeze be put on those who are on the old contract is very childish and immature. Some have been here 10,15,20+ years. I say again, refuse the job offer if you don't like the salary.

Getting on property and then comparing about the wages shows a lot about someones character. The wages are known well before. It's up to one to decide if they can make it work or not.
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by mbav8r » Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:17 am

I’ll echo Genetics remarks and add how short sighted that truly is, the new contract is basically a three year delay, after three years you are on the old contract pay scale. A freeze to the old wages will catch up to you after three short years, which for many they will already be a Captain.
Maybe you should propose a wage freeze from 10 years and up, so it won’t affect you for another several years!
Next, because of the short time to upgrade, if you average out money earned in your first 10 years it will be about 50,000 more than the average earnings of old contract pilot, most had to wait at 8-10 years for an upgrade.
I will also point out, the demographics has changed but for now and most likely until after the next contract comes up, the post 2015 pilots will not outnumber the pre. Basically anyone who was going to AC on the first PML has gone, meaning the top 832 names on the list won’t be changing much, mostly through retirement. Essentially what I’m telling you is the bottom 1/3 of the list is post hires and as such has 33% of any vote, small comfort for me knowing that as about 250ish pilots retire, it will be about 50/50. That said, when it reaches that point a good portion of those pilots will be Captains on the old contract wages(3 year delay), so yes down the road your vote will be a little more of a threat.
Now for the history lesson, the guys you’re talking about screwing over essentially took a wage freeze for the contract of 2010 and 2015. The 2010 contract in particular, the biggest increases went to the 8 year and lower scale, the smallest increases to above that. So, these guys voted to increase the starting pay in lieu of a raise for themselves and you now want to screw them over, when you simply just had to turn down the job in the first place. The 2015 contract had essentially no increase again for the top, just inflation based and not even that but no increase to the actual step pay, so the pilots who have not had any meaningful increase in pay for over 10 years are a target in your mind, real classy there bud!
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Mart
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by Mart » Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:01 am

genetic jack hammer wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:59 am

Your maid vs. pilot analogy is weak. Most people don't envision a career in cleaning up rooms. They do it to put a roof over their head, food on the table, for them and possibly their kids.
Don't like the analogy because you know it's true. You didn't talk about my Doctor analogy or take any other profession analogy you like the fact stand, people doesn't get paid base on the fact of many people turn down an offer. There will be always someone in need of a job. Every employee whichever career they choose do it to put a roof over their head and food on the table. I like my job but I'll rather spend all my time with my friend and family in a heartbeat for the same wage I have right now. And I pretty sure thats true for the majority of us human.
genetic jack hammer wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:59 am
Don't like the post 2015 salary at Jazz? Make sure to mention that, when you politely decline the job offer. If many more did this, it might start a change. But to suggest that a wage freeze be put on those who are on the old contract is very childish and immature. Some have been here 10,15,20+ years. I say again, refuse the job offer if you don't like the salary.

Getting on property and then comparing about the wages shows a lot about someones character. The wages are known well before. It's up to one to decide if they can make it work or not.
Why going personal again? I probably decline more jobs offers then you ever did in your life but I can't tell because I don't know you just like you don't know me so keep your personal attack to yourself. I fought hard in the past to improve working condition of my fellow coworker and I'm still doing it today and tomorrow.
What about you?

I'm trying to understand why Canadians are so in love with the "status quo" we live in right now. Any improvement done TODAY while business are booming will help us go through the down turn TOMORROW. You have the right do dislike my idea but do you have anything to propose beside punching me in the face or assuming I'm an idiot.

For the last 15 years, aviation working condition are going downhill, and now that we are in an amazing period financially we see no improvement aside from a fast pilot movement and maybe some few exception (Porter comes in mind but there is probably others fews). Jazz had an opportunity to start a movement, yet they vote for a 10 years no gain contracts? WJ with the help of ALPA might be the spark we need in the country but for what I read they are in a hard fight. Hope for the best for them. AC need and incredible amount of pilots for the coming year but is ACPA working on anything on their side? They still trying to recover what they lost in the last 2 contracts for what I know?

So I'm still turning down contract today but beside sleeping well at night I don't think I had any slight influence on management. So whats wrong in trying to get others ideas out, see if it could spark something? What do you think. :?: :wink:
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Mart
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by Mart » Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:19 am

mbav8r wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:17 am
...the new contract is basically a three year delay, after three years you are on the old contract pay scale. A freeze to the old wages will catch up to you after three short years, which for many they will already be a Captain.
That's something I'll have to look into, it's not what I heard.
mbav8r wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:17 am

Now for the history lesson, the guys you’re talking about screwing over essentially took a wage freeze for the contract of 2010 and 2015. The 2010 contract in particular, the biggest increases went to the 8 year and lower scale, the smallest increases to above that. So, these guys voted to increase the starting pay in lieu of a raise for themselves and you now want to screw them over, when you simply just had to turn down the job in the first place. The 2015 contract had essentially no increase again for the top, just inflation based and not even that but no increase to the actual step pay, so the pilots who have not had any meaningful increase in pay for over 10 years are a target in your mind, real classy there bud!
I'm not talking about screwing anybody, but same work SHOULD be equal to same pay. Women did fight in the past to have the same pay as their man coworker and law have been passed at the regional level to have orphelin status like this been illegal. So why would you come up with a different wage base on your date of hire if those guy are doing the same job then you do? Not factoring in experience of course since you have a pay scale anyway to cover for that.

Also according to your story then It seems Jazz management will never pay more then what you have right now so why not just shorten the pay scale then and have people reach top scale faster instead of adding low paying step? Then you'll have just the yearly inflation to factor in to maintain your status? Those 800 guys you talk about at Jazz probably stayed because that top scale might not be so bad after all?
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by montado » Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:38 am

mbav8r wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:17 am
Next, because of the short time to upgrade, if you average out money earned in your first 10 years it will be about 50,000 more than the average earnings of old contract pilot, most had to wait at 8-10 years for an upgrade.
These arguments always try to spin some perspective.

Here is mine. This argument is bullshit. Equal pay for equal work. Let's talk captain to captain pay, and fo to fo pay. I don't care that I could be a spacecadet today and make more so pay less blah blah BS.

Everone goes on "look you get paid the same basically". Well I say "look it's not the same job" maybe it's time captain and fo just make the same pay right? If we are going to twist figures and make arguments, hell it sounds like everyone here thinks captain's and fo should make the same since you "make the same" on the new contract yet expected to take on more responsibility for that pay.
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by mbav8r » Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:01 am

montado wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:38 am
mbav8r wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:17 am
Next, because of the short time to upgrade, if you average out money earned in your first 10 years it will be about 50,000 more than the average earnings of old contract pilot, most had to wait at 8-10 years for an upgrade.
These arguments always try to spin some perspective.

Here is mine. This argument is bullshit. Equal pay for equal work. Let's talk captain to captain pay, and fo to fo pay. I don't care that I could be a spacecadet today and make more so pay less blah blah BS.

Everone goes on "look you get paid the same basically". Well I say "look it's not the same job" maybe it's time captain and fo just make the same pay right? If we are going to twist figures and make arguments, hell it sounds like everyone here thinks captain's and fo should make the same since you "make the same" on the new contract yet expected to take on more responsibility for that pay.
Um, What???
Most of that is unintelligible, from what I can make out you think the numbers were twisted. Before you dismiss the argument, run the numbers or are you unwilling to look at anything that doesn’t support your twisted view of reality?
Reality, without the new contract including the PML, which was a condition of the contract passing or not, not enough pilots signing up for the PML the contract was null and void, there would be no new jobs and I would be on the 13 year FO pay scale and an uncertain future past 2020. You would be working for GGN or SR complaining about their pay, let me put it to you less than nicely, you signed up for it and thank goodness you don’t have the numbers to @#$! me over because I have no doubt you would!
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by montado » Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:30 am

mbav8r wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:01 am
montado wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:38 am


These arguments always try to spin some perspective.

Here is mine. This argument is bullshit. Equal pay for equal work. Let's talk captain to captain pay, and fo to fo pay. I don't care that I could be a spacecadet today and make more so pay less blah blah BS.

Everone goes on "look you get paid the same basically". Well I say "look it's not the same job" maybe it's time captain and fo just make the same pay right? If we are going to twist figures and make arguments, hell it sounds like everyone here thinks captain's and fo should make the same since you "make the same" on the new contract yet expected to take on more responsibility for that pay.
Um, What???
Most of that is unintelligible, from what I can make out you think the numbers were twisted. Before you dismiss the argument, run the numbers or are you unwilling to look at anything that doesn’t support your twisted view of reality?
Reality, without the new contract including the PML, which was a condition of the contract passing or not, not enough pilots signing up for the PML the contract was null and void, there would be no new jobs and I would be on the 13 year FO pay scale and an uncertain future past 2020. You would be working for GGN or SR complaining about their pay, let me put it to you less than nicely, you signed up for it and thank goodness you don’t have the numbers to @#$! me over because I have no doubt you would!
No I don’t think the numbers are twisted at all.

What I am saying is you think that the contract is okay because the final outcome in pay is similar.

What I’m saying is to make the same pay you have to take in the responsibilities of being captain to make the equal pay.

So my point is if you have a 40 year career, you spend 20 as fo and 20 as captain, why do you think it’s fair that someone makes the same end result, however they work 38 as captain and 2 as FO to attain the same salary?

Equal pay for equal work. Fo pay for fo pay, captain pay for captain pay. Not some BS “you make the same salary!” Speech becuase you know that is BS. I could not really give any care about the matter. I just think it’s an unfair perspective to justify someone’s shit pay and say “well look you can make just as much, but you have to take on way more responsibility to do so”

Edit. And further simple math will show that for every capatin seat there’s an FO seat, that’s the way it was, is and will be for the foreseeable future. So this fairytale land of everyone will upgrade, make great pay, and new hire pay does not matter is also a falsehood. So these charts of “you make just as much” sure apply to some. But it’s a mathematical fact it won’t apply to everyone. Unless the pay scale changes, those at the bottom who end up stuck there, let’s see the fancy chart that shows how great things are for them at 10 year fo?
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by Rowdy » Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:45 am

mb,

The industry has evolved from a local dog and pony show to a global market. We've also seen many folk priced right out of joining us as fuel and insurance and mx costs skyrocket and global wages tank. Do you know why TC stopped releasing the numbers on CPL's and ATPL"S issued? Because the numbers were declining rapidly and industry experts in the employ of our airlines forced their hand. Its all about keeping the workforce costs down so the BOD and CEO bonuses can stay high.

As for the pay.. I'm glad you eat up what the LEC and MEC keep feeding you. I ran those numbers. Farcical at best. Why do I make HALF of what most of the other YVR classic captains make for doing the SAME job!? Thats outrageous. 25% maybe..

All the BS that was handed to you during the last negotiations has been proven to be just that. BS. There is no fleet reduction. We actually kept tails by adding Q's and 900's. They're also extending the service life of the 300s. We also haven't shrunk the pilot numbers. Still holding strong at over 1500. GGN can barely keep up. I can't count how many times I've been handed OT to go do their 1900 flying and hear about the jet guys covering theirs as well. I see CMA planes parked because of lack of crews. Sure a GIANT market down fall may change this a bit.. but it would have to collapse the global economy, not just our local one to slow the uptake.

Your numbers for the majority being A scale are skewed. The picture is easily painted by a look at some actual lists. A quick look at last months seniority list(march 2018) shows this.. 805 A scale of 1583 and 777 B scale. 49% are B scalers. And they're hiring at least 12-16 every month now. Sure that may be to replace guys on the whatever the hell you call the current air canada movement show.. but there are still a few dozen PML1.0 folk here and as you said a couple hundred retirements every year. We will out number the A-scalers in about a month or two. We're also considerably more mobilized, connected and much more vocal. Probably why the MEC and LEC's are starting to listen to us.. also why they just re-elected themselves. Solidifying their $positions$ for another couple years before they're punted.
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by avpride » Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:10 am

Rowdy wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:45 am
mb,

The industry has evolved from a local dog and pony show to a global market. We've also seen many folk priced right out of joining us as fuel and insurance and mx costs skyrocket and global wages tank. Do you know why TC stopped releasing the numbers on CPL's and ATPL"S issued? Because the numbers were declining rapidly and industry experts in the employ of our airlines forced their hand. Its all about keeping the workforce costs down so the BOD and CEO bonuses can stay high.

As for the pay.. I'm glad you eat up what the LEC and MEC keep feeding you. I ran those numbers. Farcical at best. Why do I make HALF of what most of the other YVR classic captains make for doing the SAME job!? Thats outrageous. 25% maybe..

All the BS that was handed to you during the last negotiations has been proven to be just that. BS. There is no fleet reduction. We actually kept tails by adding Q's and 900's. They're also extending the service life of the 300s. We also haven't shrunk the pilot numbers. Still holding strong at over 1500. GGN can barely keep up. I can't count how many times I've been handed OT to go do their 1900 flying and hear about the jet guys covering theirs as well. I see CMA planes parked because of lack of crews. Sure a GIANT market down fall may change this a bit.. but it would have to collapse the global economy, not just our local one to slow the uptake.

Your numbers for the majority being A scale are skewed. The picture is easily painted by a look at some actual lists. A quick look at last months seniority list(march 2018) shows this.. 805 A scale of 1583 and 777 B scale. 49% are B scalers. And they're hiring at least 12-16 every month now. Sure that may be to replace guys on the whatever the hell you call the current air canada movement show.. but there are still a few dozen PML1.0 folk here and as you said a couple hundred retirements every year. We will out number the A-scalers in about a month or two. We're also considerably more mobilized, connected and much more vocal. Probably why the MEC and LEC's are starting to listen to us.. also why they just re-elected themselves. Solidifying their $positions$ for another couple years before they're punted.

Then why is your operational performance in a tailspin? Jazz came 3rd in controllable OTP and 2nd in controllable completions to GGN in 2017 ---- Yes GGN has been outperforming Jazz for almost 15 straight months now. Is Jazz really competitive anymore?
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by mbav8r » Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:00 pm

Hi Rowdy,
I will run the numbers again but suffice to say I don’t take anything fed to me a face value, I’m very analytical by nature so I need my own data. I did ask the hard questions during the road show and the answers were exactly as advertised, eg; I asked if they(management) were worried we wouldn’t be able to attract pilots at those wages? Answer, “we’ll know in 6 months if we went too far” I’ve said this many times and pretty sure to you but I digress, the answer to your question as to why you make less than half the Classic Captains in YVR is two fold. First, they are higher up on the pay scale YOS, second you came to Jazz on the new contract. Did anyone, anyone at all hold a gun to your head and force you to take the job?
Regarding seniority list numbers, that 1500 includes all pilots including those on leave, STD, LTD and management pilots, the baseline is less than 1200 active pilots after the 122 predicted PML attrition are gone by September, most of them will be post 2015. Of the 832 pre 2015 pilots maybe 50 will be gone at the end of 2018, so 780 of 1179 required Pilots is exactly 2/3. 1179 is the number of active pilots needed for the flying. After 2018, the attrition off the list of pre 2015 will be limited to retirements alone, about 30 per year.
The fleet used to be 133 aircraft at over 900 flights per day, how many today? 111 with around 680 flights per day, reducing to 101 aircraft when the 10 remaining RJs leave and a significant reduction to the MADUG in a little over a year and a half, how many pilots will we need then?
The bottom of the list will keep recycling not grow, that being said you should have a voice and we absolutely need to fix the bottom end of the contract, especially since there is an actual shortage of pilots which was not a factor until long after the ink dried. However, you and others are proposing yet another sacrifice from the senior guys all because YOU chose to come here, that’s not happening. It’s all or nothing now, I won’t vote for another frozen pay for senior guys to fix a problem that should be the companies, No pilots!
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digits_
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by digits_ » Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:26 pm

mbav8r wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:00 pm
Did anyone, anyone at all hold a gun to your head and force you to take the job?
That's an argument that isn't as fair as you'd think. Pilots who want an airline career in Canada don't have that many choices. There is a big chance that you have to flow through Jazz if you want to make it to the airlines.

The senior guys/union at one point basically said: "well, I made good money getting here to the top of the list, now I want to take those opportunities away from the people who will get hired after me, so I can make even more". Basically take away the steps that got you to your ivory tower in which you can now yell at the new pilots complaining about said wages. But hey, it's been democratically decided, so it's fair. Ok.

Fast forward to the situation that the OP is talking about. In a few years the B scale people will be in the majority. What if they were to decide to get a pay cut for the senior guys to improve the situation for the junior guys. After all, that would be democratically decided as well. Oh, no, can't do that. People in the ivory tower start calling foul. You should be grateful, you'll be a captain much quicker, and we didn't screw you over THAT hard, so this isn't fair. We took away your bread 10 years ago but have been giving you crumbs back in the last few years! And who put a gun to your head to take the wages if you don't like them? Ok.

So who is putting a gun to your head to stay if the new senior wages aren't enough for you?
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mbav8r
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by mbav8r » Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:57 pm

Do you guys read my posts, you will not outnumber the senior guys in a few years unless Jazz grows from the current fleet plan, again 832 voting pilots of 1179 needed post September 2018 is 66%.
Read your post again, how entitled are you? You want me and 831 other pilots to make your path to AC more palatable by taking another freeze, are you kidding me. The last two contracts I’ve voted on had NO INCREASE at the top, now from my ivory tower I’m supposed to sacrifice so your trip to AC is better for you. Nearly three decades in this industry with multiple lay offs and starting over but let me just take a little of the top for you, go @#$! yourself!
To the guys staying at Jazz, by choice or not, you will be on the same scale as me, when I get to the top scale, I stop climbing while you keep climbing to the exact same wage as me, not a penny less, why don’t you get that.
It took me 10 years to the left seat, I never once complained about it even though some upgrades could’ve been had if it weren’t for current Captains doing OT, then in 2010 we voted for unlimited OT, previously you could do no more than, I believe 3 days worth in a month, that alone held back upgrades by quit a few.
Life’s full of choices and living with the consequences and if those consequences are me being outnumbered and outvoted by a bunch of self entitled pricks, so be it but it’s not happening in the next few years, hopefully guys like yourself are long gone when that time comes.
BTW, if you vote for a senior pay cut, guess you’ll get to enjoy that yourself when you get there, or should we implement another scale, call it C. Anyone hired before 2015, paycut, anyone hired 2015-2018 gets a huge raise, 2018-on, nothing for you because well you don’t have enough votes.
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momnosam7
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by momnosam7 » Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:06 pm

mbav8r wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:57 pm
Do you guys read my posts, you will not outnumber the senior guys in a few years unless Jazz grows from the current fleet plan, again 832 voting pilots of 1179 needed post September 2018 is 66%.
Read your post again, how entitled are you? You want me and 831 other pilots to make your path to AC more palatable by taking another freeze, are you kidding me. The last two contracts I’ve voted on had NO INCREASE at the top, now from my ivory tower I’m supposed to sacrifice so your trip to AC is better for you. Nearly three decades in this industry with multiple lay offs and starting over but let me just take a little of the top for you, go @#$! yourself!
To the guys staying at Jazz, by choice or not, you will be on the same scale as me, when I get to the top scale, I stop climbing while you keep climbing to the exact same wage as me, not a penny less, why don’t you get that.
It took me 10 years to the left seat, I never once complained about it even though some upgrades could’ve been had if it weren’t for current Captains doing OT, then in 2010 we voted for unlimited OT, previously you could do no more than, I believe 3 days worth in a month, that alone held back upgrades by quit a few.
Life’s full of choices and living with the consequences and if those consequences are me being outnumbered and outvoted by a bunch of self entitled pricks, so be it but it’s not happening in the next few years, hopefully guys like yourself are long gone when that time comes.
BTW, if you vote for a senior pay cut, guess you’ll get to enjoy that yourself when you get there, or should we implement another scale, call it C. Anyone hired before 2015, paycut, anyone hired 2015-2018 gets a huge raise, 2018-on, nothing for you because well you don’t have enough votes.

Sounds like you are just crying about bad career choices you made. Thinking Jazz was going to remain a career place. Sorry BUD industry changed, you all need to adapt and make your regional more attractive to younger pilots who want to move.
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