Bargaining idea

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Ifly
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by Ifly »

You guys are hilarious!

As a former Jazz, now AC guy I can tell you this...Jazz is still viewed as being too expensive. If guys like FL280 decide that they should have everything that the generations before had, that will lead you to one place...Jazz will cease to exist. AC is looking at bringing as much of the regional flying home as possible, and Georgian/Sky could likely handle the rest.

I'm sure someone in the corporate suite at AC, is reading this thread and drooling at the opportunity to pit the Jazz pilots against one another, vote themselves a big fat raise, so AC can end the contract once and for all!

There are plenty of opportunities in aviation right now, both at home and abroad, if you're upset with the B scale and can't be bothered to understand how it came about, then vote with your feet and find something that pays you fairly. Threatening someone else's livelihood and pension is just childish.
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rudder
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by rudder »

Ifly wrote: Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:41 am You guys are hilarious!

As a former Jazz, now AC guy I can tell you this...Jazz is still viewed as being too expensive. If guys like FL280 decide that they should have everything that the generations before had, that will lead you to one place...Jazz will cease to exist. AC is looking at bringing as much of the regional flying home as possible, and Georgian/Sky could likely handle the rest.

I'm sure someone in the corporate suite at AC, is reading this thread and drooling at the opportunity to pit the Jazz pilots against one another, vote themselves a big fat raise, so AC can end the contract once and for all!

There are plenty of opportunities in aviation right now, both at home and abroad, if you're upset with the B scale and can't be bothered to understand how it came about, then vote with your feet and find something that pays you fairly. Threatening someone else's livelihood and pension is just childish.
Rumour is that GGN has a CPA to 2021. The GGN fleet is mostly comprised of aircraft that AC seemingly does not see as part of the long term Express fleet plan.

Rumour is that SKY has a CPA to 2027. The SKY fleet is entirely sub-leased from AC and there has been suggestions that the CPA can be modified/terminated on notice from AC (with compensation).

Fact is that CHR has a CPA to 12/2025 with a minimum fleet of 96 aircraft. Current Jazz fleet is 116. Planned reductions are 15 37 seat props and 10 50 seat jets. Planned additions are 5 Q400’s.

Fact is that AC has language from ACPA that allows for replacement of Express flying using Rouge and or RRA. Key factor for ACPA is that all flying positions are on mainline seniority list.

So, as AC implements it’s Express replacement strategy it has limited options until the post 2025 timeframe. It is also facing unionization of the labour forces at GGN and SKY. Ironically, the only Express carrier with known and predictable labour costs from 2018-2025 is Jazz.

While dramatic change in pay at Jazz is unlikely, the bottom line is that Jazz has less to be concerned about than other Express carriers when it comes to replacement by AC (until 2026).
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Mart
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by Mart »

prop2jet wrote: Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:01 am
As to your desire for EQUAL PAY for EQUAL work... Are you suggesting that a Day 1 pilot should earn the same as a 25 year veteran?
I never suggested such a dumb idea. :roll: Thats the purpose of a pay scale to factor in experience.

But there is no reason for a B scaller to have to show more then 20 years of experience to reach top scale while pre 2015 will do it in 17 years. There is also no reason for A scaller to upgrade at their current year of service while B scaller revert back to years 1 when they upgrade and even lower since Captain pay scale is also B scaled back by 4 years, meaning B scale Captain have to work 4 years to finally have the year 1 A scale Captain pay. Those are huge difference in treatment based only on your date of hire. Pure and unfair discrimination.
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atphat
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by atphat »

Mart wrote: Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:12 am Those are huge difference in treatment based only on your date of hire. Pure and unfair discrimination.
Lol. Hope you don’t have an application in with AC. If so you’re going to hate it.
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KenoraPilot
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by KenoraPilot »

Those who want to flow through to AC go to WJE. Clearly they're being hired quite quickly and then you can stop complaining about how horrible it is a Jazz. We here at Jazz at least have a contract......the world is what it is.....not what we want it to be. (Sure we can change it with time, but its not a fairy tale. Everyone grow up) (my two cents) :rolleyes:
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snowcone
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by snowcone »

I maybe wrong, but does the new labour laws in Ontario state equal pay for equal work?
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av8ts
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by av8ts »

snowcone wrote: Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:38 am I maybe wrong, but does the new labour laws in Ontario state equal pay for equal work?
Doesn’t apply to white males
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Mart
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by Mart »

atphat wrote: Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:29 am
Mart wrote: Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:12 am Those are huge difference in treatment based only on your date of hire. Pure and unfair discrimination.
Lol. Hope you don’t have an application in with AC. If so you’re going to hate it.
No I don't, as long as AC don't recognize our experience either I won't send my resume in, you happy?

55k/years is a joke for the level of experience they ask for.
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Mart
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by Mart »

snowcone wrote: Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:38 am I maybe wrong, but does the new labour laws in Ontario state equal pay for equal work?
It does, just like other law in other province. But flying is done under federal rule and the federal working law are about a 100 years old. So no provision for this.
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digits_
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by digits_ »

Ifly wrote: Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:41 am As a former Jazz, now AC guy I can tell you this...Jazz is still viewed as being too expensive. If guys like FL280 decide that they should have everything that the generations before had, that will lead you to one place...Jazz will cease to exist.
Then so be it. If a company is too expensive and wages need to be cut, then do it fairly across the board, don't let all the new lower paid hires take the extra pay cuts.
Junior guys don't have to finance the salry of the senior guys. The idea should be that experienced pilots operate more efficiently, make less mistakes and are thus worth the extra money. However, if they are loosing money when the high time captains are flying due to wages that are too high, then that needs to be adressed.
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
snowcone
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by snowcone »

digits_ wrote: Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:58 pm
Ifly wrote: Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:41 am As a former Jazz, now AC guy I can tell you this...Jazz is still viewed as being too expensive. If guys like FL280 decide that they should have everything that the generations before had, that will lead you to one place...Jazz will cease to exist.
Then so be it. If a company is too expensive and wages need to be cut, then do it fairly across the board, don't let all the new lower paid hires take the extra pay cuts.
Junior guys don't have to finance the salry of the senior guys. The idea should be that experienced pilots operate more efficiently, make less mistakes and are thus worth the extra money. However, if they are loosing money when the high time captains are flying due to wages that are too high, then that needs to be adressed.
Is that not what they did with the pml and retirement packages they offered?
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Rowdy
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by Rowdy »

Had another solid look at some numbers on my four hour yeg break. The a scalers will be barely 50% of the voting populace by may 1st. There are 8 of the 804 leaving for AC, and 11 retirements. Makes it pretty even at 782 b scale to 785 a scale. That doesn’t include the 14 new hires this month either. All b scale, but apparently they’re going to AC at some point so they don’t count. :wink:

Also. 149 a scale pilots on Leave. I count 11 on the b scale. So that makes 636 active a scale. How many of those 149 are going to be paying any attention to the daily operations and union activity and come out and vote?

I don’t see any MEC representation that’s b scale. YVR LEC elections coming in February. I won’t be voting for anyone unless they’re post Jan 2015 hire date. I’d also like to see ur negotiating team have an appropriate number of b scale pilots.

I found the union meetings in Yvr to Be dismissive of all our concerns. And a large focus on this PML garbage to which our MEC pays lip service even though they have no say or control over it. Nor should they. Which is fine by me as I refuse to take a pay cut to go botl at AC. I like it here and I’ve already made my plan to stay.

Mb I’m sad to see the attitude and rude And arrogant words from you. I’ll remember that you called us pricks when it comed time to vote.

I’m not here to take from the a scale group. I’m glad you have what you have. I just want fair representation and improvements for my peers. I want the classic cap gone. I want the classic airline language eliminated. I want the b scale eliminated and I want the scheduling language cleaned up.

Signed, someone who was in the hiring process before the contract change, whose file was lost TIL after it. Imagine that.
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nwopilot
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by nwopilot »

I always wondered this. What is the “classic airline”?
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mbav8r
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by mbav8r »

mbav8r wrote: Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:57 pm Do you guys read my posts, you will not outnumber the senior guys in a few years unless Jazz grows from the current fleet plan, again 832 voting pilots of 1179 needed post September 2018 is 66%.
Read your post again, how entitled are you? You want me and 831 other pilots to make your path to AC more palatable by taking another freeze, are you kidding me. The last two contracts I’ve voted on had NO INCREASE at the top, now from my ivory tower I’m supposed to sacrifice so your trip to AC is better for you. Nearly three decades in this industry with multiple lay offs and starting over but let me just take a little of the top for you, go @#$! yourself!
To the guys staying at Jazz, by choice or not, you will be on the same scale as me, when I get to the top scale, I stop climbing while you keep climbing to the exact same wage as me, not a penny less, why don’t you get that.
It took me 10 years to the left seat, I never once complained about it even though some upgrades could’ve been had if it weren’t for current Captains doing OT, then in 2010 we voted for unlimited OT, previously you could do no more than, I believe 3 days worth in a month, that alone held back upgrades by quit a few.
Life’s full of choices and living with the consequences and if those consequences are me being outnumbered and outvoted by a bunch of self entitled pricks, so be it but it’s not happening in the next few years, hopefully guys like yourself are long gone when that time comes.
BTW, if you vote for a senior pay cut, guess you’ll get to enjoy that yourself when you get there, or should we implement another scale, call it C. Anyone hired before 2015, paycut, anyone hired 2015-2018 gets a huge raise, 2018-on, nothing for you because well you don’t have enough votes.
Rowdy, I honestly couldn’t remember calling you pricks so I went back over my posts and found it, the entire post seem worth repeating. Please read it again.
And count again, when September rolls around we are predicted to be at the baseline of 1179, that number does not include pilots on leave. So it will be a pretty even spilt of A and B however all those pilots on leave are almost certainly going to be active participants in the voting process. 2010 contract, it was something like 97% of “eligible” voters voted 98% in favour of a strike. Do you think if the DB plan was at risk they will just sit around and see what happens.
Also, consider this, by the time you will have a chance on voting for anything of substance you will be here roughly 10 years, so you going to vote yourself a pay cut then, you’ll be a lot closer to the A scale pay than the B scale at that point, let’s see how that works out.
As for all the things you mentioned needing to be fixed, I agree but unless our competition ups the ante and unless we stop receiving applicants, most of those were necessary and not likely going to change. It might of been better if they actually started the classic airline and hired directly for it, if it weren’t for that language the classics were absolutely getting phased out, that was made clear by AC.
I’m not being arrogant Rowdy, I’m deeply offended that some who chose to accept these wages are now threatening to take away things we fought for over the years, I feel for you that they lost your file and put you on the new contract, I’ve been affected by a line drawn in the sand aswell, not to the degree as you but they took away my retirement passes because I was hired after a certain date, this was years after the date, I’m sure you’ve heard the stories.
Respectfully, the conversation stops as soon as you start with taking away from us(A) to give to you(B), I would support an initiative that pays for experience, so with your experience you would make more than a college grad new hire.
I once worked for a company that paid an extra 500 per month on the base pay for every thousand hours you had. What a novel idea, I wish more would do that.
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digits_
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by digits_ »

mbav8r wrote: Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:54 pm Respectfully, the conversation stops as soon as you start with taking away from us(A) to give to you(B),
Jeesh.

"You" are the one that started the conversation.
"You" are the one who created the A vs B, when A was in the majority. Now that B is growing and could possibly become the majority, you cry foul?

:roll:
I’m not being arrogant Rowdy, I’m deeply offended that some who chose to accept these wages are now threatening to take away things we fought for over the years,
What if the new hires intentionally accept the B scale, knowing that in a few year they'll be in the majority to improve the B scale? They might know exactly what they are getting into. It looks like just might not have known what you were getting yourself into when you created the B scale.

You are also an unsung hero, as you fought for wage increases for yourself (A scale). I'm sure the B scale people appreciate the sacrifices you made to increase the wages for yourself.

I really don't understand how you can keep defending the A vs B scale with some kind of moral superior attitude.
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
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KenoraPilot
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by KenoraPilot »

nwopilot wrote: Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:04 am I always wondered this. What is the “classic airline”?
The classic airline was (from what I understand) an attempt by the company to spin off the DH8 classics into its own airline (kinda like rouge and swoop). In an attempt to make it another division with cheaper labour. What ended up happening was a cap was placed on salaries for the DH8 for all "B" scale hires. Anyone hired post Jan 2015 on the DH8 will max out at the 7 year captain/FO wage. After year 7 there is no more "growth on the pay scale" for the DH8. So all "B" scale pilots must bid off the Classic at the end of their 7th year.

I agree with Rowdy this is 100% got to change with the upcoming contract. My 7 years as a Captain on the DH8 will be 2025 so I am all guns a blazin for the removal of the "cap". I quite love the DH8 and intend to stay on it as long as possible. (side note I am attempting to join the various committees with the end going of being on the negotiations committee in a few years) You're 100% the ALPA MEC/LEC and committees need some B scale rep. But this can't be about us vs them (A vs B). We need to make this a company worth staying at and one worth staying at until you move on to AC if that's your choice. I personally believe thats 100% achievable. (maybe dreaming but thats my opinion)
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AvifiskAlly
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by AvifiskAlly »

KenoraPilot wrote: Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:47 pm
nwopilot wrote: Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:04 am I always wondered this. What is the “classic airline”?
The classic airline was (from what I understand) an attempt by the company to spin off the DH8 classics into its own airline (kinda like rouge and swoop). In an attempt to make it another division with cheaper labour. What ended up happening was a cap was placed on salaries for the DH8 for all "B" scale hires. Anyone hired post Jan 2015 on the DH8 will max out at the 7 year captain/FO wage. After year 7 there is no more "growth on the pay scale" for the DH8. So all "B" scale pilots must bid off the Classic at the end of their 7th year.

I agree with Rowdy this is 100% got to change with the upcoming contract. My 7 years as a Captain on the DH8 will be 2025 so I am all guns a blazin for the removal of the "cap". I quite love the DH8 and intend to stay on it as long as possible. (side note I am attempting to join the various committees with the end going of being on the negotiations committee in a few years) You're 100% the ALPA MEC/LEC and committees need some B scale rep. But this can't be about us vs them (A vs B). We need to make this a company worth staying at and one worth staying at until you move on to AC if that's your choice. I personally believe thats 100% achievable. (maybe dreaming but thats my opinion)

Not achievable at all. What you do is a commodity. You provide regional lift. Do it cheaper and you win. Or. They win. But that is the game.
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Oxi
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by Oxi »

KenoraPilot wrote: Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:47 pm
nwopilot wrote: Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:04 am I always wondered this. What is the “classic airline”?
But this can't be about us vs them (A vs B). We need to make this a company worth staying at
thank you
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KenoraPilot
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by KenoraPilot »

[/quote]


Not achievable at all. What you do is a commodity. You provide regional lift. Do it cheaper and you win. Or. They win. But that is the game.
[/quote]

What do you do? Since clearly you're not a Jazz employee.....

Plus that is a very sad way to look at the issues.....it may be the correct way but viewing it that way doesn't help the situation. Its the same as throwing your hands in the air and saying "whatever". Nothing in life is free or given, its earned. Yes we make mistakes and take wrong paths and get screwed but honestly if we don't at least "TRY" to help ourselves and make things better it won't get better. Also if we allow ourselves and others to view us as "just a commodity who provides "regional" lift" then that's all we are. If we promote and display ourselves as more (even if its in our minds and professional attitudes) then thats half the battle. I'd rather work with people who try to make things better and have pride in their "regional airline". I know my views may be dreamy but f**k it, why not its my life and my career.....I'd rather at least be a little positive about what I do than negative about everything.
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AvifiskAlly
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by AvifiskAlly »

KenoraPilot wrote: Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:25 pm

Not achievable at all. What you do is a commodity. You provide regional lift. Do it cheaper and you win. Or. They win. But that is the game.
[/quote]

What do you do? Since clearly you're not a Jazz employee.....

Plus that is a very sad way to look at the issues.....it may be the correct way but viewing it that way doesn't help the situation. Its the same as throwing your hands in the air and saying "whatever". Nothing in life is free or given, its earned. Yes we make mistakes and take wrong paths and get screwed but honestly if we don't at least "TRY" to help ourselves and make things better it won't get better. Also if we allow ourselves and others to view us as "just a commodity who provides "regional" lift" then that's all we are. If we promote and display ourselves as more (even if its in our minds and professional attitudes) then thats half the battle. I'd rather work with people who try to make things better and have pride in their "regional airline". I know my views may be dreamy but f**k it, why not its my life and my career.....I'd rather at least be a little positive about what I do than negative about everything.
[/quote]


Man I feel for you and I understand but the reality is that your ONLY customer views you as a commodity and that will not change regardless of how you view yourself. What can Jazz do to survive >>>> cut costs. Don’t make your job out to be more than it is and 100% never feel that it is less than it is. It is a great profession and you are well respected in society. BUT there is 0 difference to what you do and what Sky or Georgian do today nor PAL, CMA or Wasaya can do in your place tomorrow. Sorry, regional feed is a competitive business and your goals are not aligned with your employers ONLY customer.
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