Bargaining idea

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mbav8r
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by mbav8r » Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:08 pm

momnosam7 wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:06 pm
mbav8r wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:57 pm
Do you guys read my posts, you will not outnumber the senior guys in a few years unless Jazz grows from the current fleet plan, again 832 voting pilots of 1179 needed post September 2018 is 66%.
Read your post again, how entitled are you? You want me and 831 other pilots to make your path to AC more palatable by taking another freeze, are you kidding me. The last two contracts I’ve voted on had NO INCREASE at the top, now from my ivory tower I’m supposed to sacrifice so your trip to AC is better for you. Nearly three decades in this industry with multiple lay offs and starting over but let me just take a little of the top for you, go @#$! yourself!
To the guys staying at Jazz, by choice or not, you will be on the same scale as me, when I get to the top scale, I stop climbing while you keep climbing to the exact same wage as me, not a penny less, why don’t you get that.
It took me 10 years to the left seat, I never once complained about it even though some upgrades could’ve been had if it weren’t for current Captains doing OT, then in 2010 we voted for unlimited OT, previously you could do no more than, I believe 3 days worth in a month, that alone held back upgrades by quit a few.
Life’s full of choices and living with the consequences and if those consequences are me being outnumbered and outvoted by a bunch of self entitled pricks, so be it but it’s not happening in the next few years, hopefully guys like yourself are long gone when that time comes.
BTW, if you vote for a senior pay cut, guess you’ll get to enjoy that yourself when you get there, or should we implement another scale, call it C. Anyone hired before 2015, paycut, anyone hired 2015-2018 gets a huge raise, 2018-on, nothing for you because well you don’t have enough votes.
[/quote

Sounds like you are just crying about bad career choices you made. Thinking Jazz was going to remain a career place. Sorry BUD industry changed, you all need to adapt and make your regional more attractive to younger pilots who want to move.
Sounds like you have a reading and comprehension problem
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by av8ts » Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:45 pm

mbav8r wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:57 pm
Do you guys read my posts, you will not outnumber the senior guys in a few years unless Jazz grows from the current fleet plan, again 832 voting pilots of 1179 needed post September 2018 is 66%.
Read your post again, how entitled are you? You want me and 831 other pilots to make your path to AC more palatable by taking another freeze, are you kidding me. The last two contracts I’ve voted on had NO INCREASE at the top, now from my ivory tower I’m supposed to sacrifice so your trip to AC is better for you. Nearly three decades in this industry with multiple lay offs and starting over but let me just take a little of the top for you, go @#$! yourself!
To the guys staying at Jazz, by choice or not, you will be on the same scale as me, when I get to the top scale, I stop climbing while you keep climbing to the exact same wage as me, not a penny less, why don’t you get that.
It took me 10 years to the left seat, I never once complained about it even though some upgrades could’ve been had if it weren’t for current Captains doing OT, then in 2010 we voted for unlimited OT, previously you could do no more than, I believe 3 days worth in a month, that alone held back upgrades by quit a few.
Life’s full of choices and living with the consequences and if those consequences are me being outnumbered and outvoted by a bunch of self entitled pricks, so be it but it’s not happening in the next few years, hopefully guys like yourself are long gone when that time comes.
BTW, if you vote for a senior pay cut, guess you’ll get to enjoy that yourself when you get there, or should we implement another scale, call it C. Anyone hired before 2015, paycut, anyone hired 2015-2018 gets a huge raise, 2018-on, nothing for you because well you don’t have enough votes.
+1
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by Inverted2 » Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:07 pm

It's just millennials blowing off steam. I flew with a college kid complaining about the pay recently. I asked him what his previous job paid and he said it was his first job he ever had. Its all about the entitlement with the younger ones now. I just laugh it off.
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by mbav8r » Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:32 pm

So Rowdy et al,
I ran the numbers more precisely, comparing my first 10, then 12 years on the wages from previous contracts to the new contract and your first 10 years then 12 years. I used 82.5 hours per month to keep things consistent and it’s what I averaged throughout the years.
I could not hold left seat, let me be clear, could NOT hold it at all at any base on any equipment for 10 years so that’s what I used for calculating the annual wage.
Old(my) contract first 10 years 604767.27, new contract upgrade at 2 years, then back to year 1 Captain pay, your 10 years 807463.80, 202696.53 more, wow!
Old first 12 years for me 827269.77, your first 12 years 1,037,876.40, 210606.63 more for you! I’d like to know what numbers the union used for their calculations but clearly a more conservative approach than I used.
You could delay your left seat until year 5 and still come out ahead, so tell us again how we screwed you.
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digits_
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by digits_ » Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:25 pm

mbav8r wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:57 pm
Do you guys read my posts, you will not outnumber the senior guys in a few years unless Jazz grows from the current fleet plan, again 832 voting pilots of 1179 needed post September 2018 is 66%.
Read your post again, how entitled are you? You want me and 831 other pilots to make your path to AC more palatable by taking another freeze, are you kidding me. The last two contracts I’ve voted on had NO INCREASE at the top, now from my ivory tower I’m supposed to sacrifice so your trip to AC is better for you. Nearly three decades in this industry with multiple lay offs and starting over but let me just take a little of the top for you, go @#$! yourself!
To the guys staying at Jazz, by choice or not, you will be on the same scale as me, when I get to the top scale, I stop climbing while you keep climbing to the exact same wage as me, not a penny less, why don’t you get that.
It took me 10 years to the left seat, I never once complained about it even though some upgrades could’ve been had if it weren’t for current Captains doing OT, then in 2010 we voted for unlimited OT, previously you could do no more than, I believe 3 days worth in a month, that alone held back upgrades by quit a few.
Life’s full of choices and living with the consequences and if those consequences are me being outnumbered and outvoted by a bunch of self entitled pricks, so be it but it’s not happening in the next few years, hopefully guys like yourself are long gone when that time comes.
BTW, if you vote for a senior pay cut, guess you’ll get to enjoy that yourself when you get there, or should we implement another scale, call it C. Anyone hired before 2015, paycut, anyone hired 2015-2018 gets a huge raise, 2018-on, nothing for you because well you don’t have enough votes.
Some thoughts:

1) You said "if you don't like it, don't apply"
Ok, I don't apply because the wages are too low
"you want more money? your are so entitled!"

What is the correct attitude in this manner? Be happy with the current wages?
Hmm, can't do that, because in the US they make more and Canadian pilots should stand together and not accept sub par wages.

2) You should look up the definition of entitlement and apply it to your post. You might come to a remarkable conclusion.

3) If you take away 100 CAD and in the next 5 years give me back 60 CAD, I'm still out 40 CAD.

4) Loosely translated "You guys have to suffer because I suffered" is not a very proactive attitude in conflicts.

5) You've had your layoffs and I'm sure you have suffered. Our bad times are undoubtedly still ahead. Nothing wrong with trying to save up as much as we can in advance.

6) An extra payscale, C would be unfair, just like a separate payscale B would be unfair. That you base salary on years of service is an acceptable strategy, that you base it on the year someone gets hired, and that you create a pay difference between 2 people doing the exact same job but one year later, is not.

7) Having your wage adjusted/increased for cost of living, is a pay raise. It is not an automatically applied concept. A lot of people and pilots do not get this. And wages for people on the B scale went down in absolute numbers. It is also normal that after a certain point their are no more pay increased. Your value to the company does not go up signifcantly after 28 vs 29 years of experience. It does greatly in crease in the first few years however.
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by montado » Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:38 pm

mbav8r wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:32 pm
So Rowdy et al,
I ran the numbers more precisely, comparing my first 10, then 12 years on the wages from previous contracts to the new contract and your first 10 years then 12 years. I used 82.5 hours per month to keep things consistent and it’s what I averaged throughout the years.
I could not hold left seat, let me be clear, could NOT hold it at all at any base on any equipment for 10 years so that’s what I used for calculating the annual wage.
Old(my) contract first 10 years 604767.27, new contract upgrade at 2 years, then back to year 1 Captain pay, your 10 years 807463.80, 202696.53 more, wow!
Old first 12 years for me 827269.77, your first 12 years 1,037,876.40, 210606.63 more for you! I’d like to know what numbers the union used for their calculations but clearly a more conservative approach than I used.
You could delay your left seat until year 5 and still come out ahead, so tell us again how we screwed you.
Please run the numbers for us with what someone on the new contract would make vs you doing the SAME job. Why you think it’s fair to compare being an FO to a Captain is beyond me. I can show you pay scales to where doctors made more than janitors, does that have any bearing on whether their pay was fair or industry standard? Everyone wants to avoid this, becuase on paper, salaries are down, the airline is paying less, yet somehow you think we are so stupid to think we have it better today, being paid less for the same seat.

Let’s go cut all the tim horotons workers hourly wages in half, tell them how good they have it because we will make them manager in a year and after 5 years they actually make more money this way.
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by mbav8r » Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:18 pm

Digits_ wrote
Some thoughts:

1) You said "if you don't like it, don't apply"
Ok, I don't apply because the wages are too low
"you want more money? your are so entitled!"
No, I said you were entitled because you want me to take a pay freeze, to ease your pain as you pass through Jazz to get to AC
What is the correct attitude in this manner? Be happy with the current wages?
Hmm, can't do that, because in the US they make more and Canadian pilots should stand together and not accept sub par wages.
If you’d been around longer than a month you’d know that up until a couple years ago they were the lowest paid Regional pilots in the world(at least NA)
2) You should look up the definition of entitlement and apply it to your post. You might come to a remarkable conclusion.
Not worth a response
3) If you take away 100 CAD and in the next 5 years give me back 60 CAD, I'm still out 40 CAD.
Yes, that would be true if I physically took it from you, you never had it in the first place, you chose to accept the 60 dollars.

4) Loosely translated "You guys have to suffer because I suffered" is not a very proactive attitude in conflicts.
Nope, I’ve clearly stated the low pay needs to be fixed, you want me to suffer to make that happen. See above where you chose to accept the 60 dollars.

5) You've had your layoffs and I'm sure you have suffered. Our bad times are undoubtedly still ahead. Nothing wrong with trying to save up as much as we can in advance.
I wouldn’t wish layoffs and starting over on anybody, well maybe those swoop bastards. Hopefully good times ahead and since guys keep applying to Jazz, management has had no reason to fix it, maybe when we actually don’t have any applicants that will change.

6) An extra payscale, C would be unfair, just like a separate payscale B would be unfair. That you base salary on years of service is an acceptable strategy, that you base it on the year someone gets hired, and that you create a pay difference between 2 people doing the exact same job but one year later, is not.
Yes it sucks, we didn’t invent this, the industry is full of examples of this happening, you seem to be ignoring the simple fact, without this new payscale you would be somewhere else complaining about the pay.
7) Having your wage adjusted/increased for cost of living, is a pay raise. It is not an automatically applied concept. A lot of people and pilots do not get this. And wages for people on the B scale went down in absolute numbers. It is also normal that after a certain point their are no more pay increased. Your value to the company does not go up signifcantly after 28 vs 29 years of experience. It does greatly in crease in the first few years however.
A 2% raise is nice however does not always cover cost of living increases, in fact I would argue it never does. Inflation according to our government is targeted at 2%, they don’t factor in volatile items like fuel or another example house insurance. My house insurance has gone up 14-17% annually for the last several years, property tax goes up 5% etc....
Your value as a pilot is no different year 1 or year 5, they don’t value your experience. Unless you’re talking about when you get an ATPL, in which case I think you should have it when you arrive in the first place, coincidentally that’s why the regionals in the US are paying better theses days. To put it in perspective for you, I started at Jazz with several thousand hours mostly PIC, some management positions and a short while later the first of the college grads started, they were paid the exact same wage as me, clearly no value put on my experience.

You want a job at AC and that’s fine but I’m not going to subsidize your trip, if you don’t get there, go see my numbers in the post above, I’m not going to lose any sleep knowing you will make significantly more than I did overall, don’t forget to save for that rainy day.
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mbav8r
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by mbav8r » Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:35 pm

montado wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:38 pm
mbav8r wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:32 pm
So Rowdy et al,
I ran the numbers more precisely, comparing my first 10, then 12 years on the wages from previous contracts to the new contract and your first 10 years then 12 years. I used 82.5 hours per month to keep things consistent and it’s what I averaged throughout the years.
I could not hold left seat, let me be clear, could NOT hold it at all at any base on any equipment for 10 years so that’s what I used for calculating the annual wage.
Old(my) contract first 10 years 604767.27, new contract upgrade at 2 years, then back to year 1 Captain pay, your 10 years 807463.80, 202696.53 more, wow!
Old first 12 years for me 827269.77, your first 12 years 1,037,876.40, 210606.63 more for you! I’d like to know what numbers the union used for their calculations but clearly a more conservative approach than I used.
You could delay your left seat until year 5 and still come out ahead, so tell us again how we screwed you.
Please run the numbers for us with what someone on the new contract would make vs you doing the SAME job. Why you think it’s fair to compare being an FO to a Captain is beyond me. I can show you pay scales to where doctors made more than janitors, does that have any bearing on whether their pay was fair or industry standard? Everyone wants to avoid this, becuase on paper, salaries are down, the airline is paying less, yet somehow you think we are so stupid to think we have it better today, being paid less for the same seat.

Let’s go cut all the tim horotons workers hourly wages in half, tell them how good they have it because we will make them manager in a year and after 5 years they actually make more money this way.
It’s not the same job, get this through your thick head, we could not get the left seat, why would I compare something that was not possible. Are there a few pilots who were hired just before the contract, yes I suppose there are some who were upgraded much quicker than the average, timing is everything.
I am offended though, you chose to accept the conditions ahead of joining and now you want me to make another sacrifice to ease your pain, how about people own their choices and live with the consequences or go where they might feel more valued.
I can’t be more clear about this, I will not ever take a paycut to improve your situation unless I’m forced to, looks like you’ll have to wade it out for awhile though, numbers not on your side yet
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by montado » Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:06 pm

You are offended that your colleagues want the same payscale as you? Huh this will be a new concept to wrap my thick head around. You know you are not the rule, plenty of jazz pilots reaching 60 here shortly spent less than a year of their careers right seat. We are all sorry you had to spend years in the right seat making a living wage.

I have the ability to step back and see all perspectives, and I can see where everyone is getting their charge. Boils down like it’s been said, Jazz won’t be a career company, pilots will come and go like bearskin and perimeter. That’s the contract voted in, voted in to create division and pretty much flip Jazz into a pancake house.
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digits_
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by digits_ » Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:10 pm

mbav8r wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:35 pm
I can’t be more clear about this, I will not ever take a paycut to improve your situation unless I’m forced to, looks like you’ll have to wade it out for awhile though, numbers not on your side yet
Just like the new hires did. They didn't have a choice either. Well, they had the choice not to take the job. Just like you would have the choice to change jobs if you don't like the new (hypothetical) contract. Both those "choices", aren't really viable alternatives though, aren't they?


mbav8r wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:18 pm
Digits_ wrote
Some thoughts:

1) You said "if you don't like it, don't apply"
Ok, I don't apply because the wages are too low
"you want more money? your are so entitled!"
No, I said you were entitled because you want me to take a pay freeze, to ease your pain as you pass through Jazz to get to AC
What is the correct attitude in this manner? Be happy with the current wages?
Hmm, can't do that, because in the US they make more and Canadian pilots should stand together and not accept sub par wages.
If you’d been around longer than a month you’d know that up until a couple years ago they were the lowest paid Regional pilots in the world(at least NA)
But we are having this conversation now. Not a few years ago. I am honestly curious, what would be an acceptable -to "your" generation- attitude towards this whole regional/jazz debacle for a fresh ATPL holder?
3) If you take away 100 CAD and in the next 5 years give me back 60 CAD, I'm still out 40 CAD.
Yes, that would be true if I physically took it from you, you never had it in the first place, you chose to accept the 60 dollars.
The exact same can be said over reducing your future wages. We didn't take anything, you never had it in the first place. That doesn't make it fair or acceptable either.
6) An extra payscale, C would be unfair, just like a separate payscale B would be unfair. That you base salary on years of service is an acceptable strategy, that you base it on the year someone gets hired, and that you create a pay difference between 2 people doing the exact same job but one year later, is not.
Yes it sucks, we didn’t invent this, the industry is full of examples of this happening, you seem to be ignoring the simple fact, without this new payscale you would be somewhere else complaining about the pay.
Okay. So you agree it sucks. You might not have invented it, but you did implement it. Unions can't do stuff like this and then expect people on both payscales to join forces and act in unison.

Honestly, what did you think would happen eventually when a system like this gets implemented?

Your value as a pilot is no different year 1 or year 5, they don’t value your experience.
Of course your value increases. Your value is pretty much directly related to your salary in an employee-employer relationship. Why not pay everyone the same then? Because experienced type rating holding pilots would get snatched by other airlines. If you want to reflect that economic reality, pay should go up more significantly in the first 5 years of the pay scale, than in the highest 5 years of the scale, but that's a completely different discussion :wink:
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by Air.Field » Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:55 pm

wow.... I'm at a loss of words of the attitudes here. Instead of a long winded post reiterating most of what mbav8r said, I'll just say this. If you want equal pay for equal work, why not complain to AC and ACPA for same pay they are getting. You are flying their passengers with AC painted on the side. The money is essentially coming from AC. Go hassel them and tell them how you feel betrayed and deserving. :roll:
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by PositiveRate27 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:13 am

This is all playing out to Air Canada’s master plan perfectly. This whole contract was a union bust and they are playing both sides like fiddles. The strongest thing any union can have is solidarity in its membership. The greatest loss in the 2015 contract was the loss of solidarity in the separation of scales. B scale was sold to the A scale pilot group as a quick transition for new hires from express to mainline. It was palatable for A scale to vote it in because it was implied (or assumed) that flow would continue on a seniority basis at 80% and no one on B scale would take long term career damage because they would get to flow to mainline. This should have been the red flag that scared the sh!t out the union. Far too good to be true. The problem with this arrangement is, it is amicable for both A and B scales and therefore doesn’t create any animosity between the union membership. The details of PML2 were extremely vague and that should have concerned ALPA, given how much it’s future membership’s careers were hinged on it. ALPA is always quick to point out that they have nothing to do with AC’s hiring practices, however, the results of PML 2 were going to determine whether they were going to have a pretty disillusioned 50% membership in only a few short years. AC was willing to commit to a specific number and process for PML 1, which means they could have done the same for PML 2.

After the 2010 contract AC needed to derail a solidified Jazz pilot group and saw a great opportunity to use the supposed “flow” as a bait and switch. When I first got hired at Jazz, the overwhelming consensus from B scalers was “yah, the pay sucks but it’s short term pain for long term gain. I’m happy to wait here a few years and then I’ll be on my way”. Fast forward to the first equipment bid of 2018 and the landscape has changed a lot. Flow has slowed down considerably. For the most part, the only people flowing are the ones who would have met the OTS requirements anyway. There were only a hand full of upgrades in the YVR base, and the reality that new hires will spend more than just a couple years in the right seat is looming. Suddenly B scale is a long term reality for a lot of people, and they have an easy group of people (A scale) to take that fear and frustration out on.

The division of A scale and B scale has finally begun in force, and I believe this was the long game of the 2015 contract from AC’s point of view. We are being out maneuvered. As a pilot group we need to keep the big picture in mind, and that’s fair WAWCON for EVERY pilot on the list. AC wants us to tear each other to pieces and we are starting to do their dirty work for them. It’s a chicken sh!t move for an A scaler to wave the “entitled millennial” flag. I can’t tell you how many FOs I’ve flown with that came here under the impression that they would either flow or upgrade within 2 years. These are people with 5-10 years in the industry and now they are facing long waits in the right seat and can’t afford to support their families. That’s not entitlement, that’s survival. It’s also achicken sh!t move for a B scaler to say A scale sold them out. A scale was at risk of losing their jobs and staring all over again, some for the multiple time. Most of us B scalers would have voted the same way. This bickering is not productive or healthy. We need to understand the struggles that both scales face, and move together towards a better contract in the future.

Let’s remain in solidarity.

PR
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by momnosam7 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:05 am

PositiveRate27 wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:13 am
This is all playing out to Air Canada’s master plan perfectly. This whole contract was a union bust and they are playing both sides like fiddles. The strongest thing any union can have is solidarity in its membership. The greatest loss in the 2015 contract was the loss of solidarity in the separation of scales. B scale was sold to the A scale pilot group as a quick transition for new hires from express to mainline. It was palatable for A scale to vote it in because it was implied (or assumed) that flow would continue on a seniority basis at 80% and no one on B scale would take long term career damage because they would get to flow to mainline. This should have been the red flag that scared the sh!t out the union. Far too good to be true. The problem with this arrangement is, it is amicable for both A and B scales and therefore doesn’t create any animosity between the union membership. The details of PML2 were extremely vague and that should have concerned ALPA, given how much it’s future membership’s careers were hinged on it. ALPA is always quick to point out that they have nothing to do with AC’s hiring practices, however, the results of PML 2 were going to determine whether they were going to have a pretty disillusioned 50% membership in only a few short years. AC was willing to commit to a specific number and process for PML 1, which means they could have done the same for PML 2.

After the 2010 contract AC needed to derail a solidified Jazz pilot group and saw a great opportunity to use the supposed “flow” as a bait and switch. When I first got hired at Jazz, the overwhelming consensus from B scalers was “yah, the pay sucks but it’s short term pain for long term gain. I’m happy to wait here a few years and then I’ll be on my way”. Fast forward to the first equipment bid of 2018 and the landscape has changed a lot. Flow has slowed down considerably. For the most part, the only people flowing are the ones who would have met the OTS requirements anyway. There were only a hand full of upgrades in the YVR base, and the reality that new hires will spend more than just a couple years in the right seat is looming. Suddenly B scale is a long term reality for a lot of people, and they have an easy group of people (A scale) to take that fear and frustration out on.

The division of A scale and B scale has finally begun in force, and I believe this was the long game of the 2015 contract from AC’s point of view. We are being out maneuvered. As a pilot group we need to keep the big picture in mind, and that’s fair WAWCON for EVERY pilot on the list. AC wants us to tear each other to pieces and we are starting to do their dirty work for them. It’s a chicken sh!t move for an A scaler to wave the “entitled millennial” flag. I can’t tell you how many FOs I’ve flown with that came here under the impression that they would either flow or upgrade within 2 years. These are people with 5-10 years in the industry and now they are facing long waits in the right seat and can’t afford to support their families. That’s not entitlement, that’s survival. It’s also achicken sh!t move for a B scaler to say A scale sold them out. A scale was at risk of losing their jobs and staring all over again, some for the multiple time. Most of us B scalers would have voted the same way. This bickering is not productive or healthy. We need to understand the struggles that both scales face, and move together towards a better contract in the future.

Let’s remain in solidarity.

PR

It's an industry issue that Jazz and all other companies in Canada are caught in. It is not driven by management it is driven by the consumer. The consumer doesn't care who they are flying on any more than you care if you bought your new TV from Best Buy or Amazon. No different than a family of 4 taking that yearly vacation on WOW instead of WJ hench the real need for Swoop. Although there are some points to be made about supply and demand the job of being a pilot is changing. It will always be a highly respected job and a great profession but the function they are fulfilling is becoming a commodity. You dont care where your electricity is coming from and consumers don't care what airline they are on or who is driving. Off-shoring of pilots in Canada by foreign carriers is just yet another reminder that piloting is a global career which can be good but also bad as Canadian pilots are still in the top percentile of what is called "totality of quality, equity and opportunity" meaning that wages may be slightly lower but given the other benefits of working in Canada (Medical, education, opportunity, human rights protections, etc) Canada competes well on the global demand for pilots. The next logical step for companies is not to raise wages (when they are already tops in TQEO), it is to pressure the gov for foreign pilots AND that my friends is where the real fight begins. This petty A scale B scale stuff is simply crumbs. The industry is becoming commoditized the profession is becoming commoditized and things are changing just as they have in countless other industries. Swoop is essential, B scale at Jazz is essential and it being driven by the consumer. Try and tell a pax to fly Jazz instead of Sky because the pilots are paid more. Aint gonna happen. Try and tell a pax to fly Jazz because they are better than GGN. Aint gonna happen. Tell a pax to fly WJ instead of Wow because the bad company is fighting with its pilots, aint gonna happen. Bottom line is not enough of us shopped at Sears because we were driven by price and so are the people that fill our airplanes. An airline is providing a commoditized service for the first time in our young industry thanks to globalization and - guess what - thats a good thing for consumers.
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AvifiskAlly
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by AvifiskAlly » Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:08 am

momnosam7 wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:05 am
PositiveRate27 wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:13 am
This is all playing out to Air Canada’s master plan perfectly. This whole contract was a union bust and they are playing both sides like fiddles. The strongest thing any union can have is solidarity in its membership. The greatest loss in the 2015 contract was the loss of solidarity in the separation of scales. B scale was sold to the A scale pilot group as a quick transition for new hires from express to mainline. It was palatable for A scale to vote it in because it was implied (or assumed) that flow would continue on a seniority basis at 80% and no one on B scale would take long term career damage because they would get to flow to mainline. This should have been the red flag that scared the sh!t out the union. Far too good to be true. The problem with this arrangement is, it is amicable for both A and B scales and therefore doesn’t create any animosity between the union membership. The details of PML2 were extremely vague and that should have concerned ALPA, given how much it’s future membership’s careers were hinged on it. ALPA is always quick to point out that they have nothing to do with AC’s hiring practices, however, the results of PML 2 were going to determine whether they were going to have a pretty disillusioned 50% membership in only a few short years. AC was willing to commit to a specific number and process for PML 1, which means they could have done the same for PML 2.

After the 2010 contract AC needed to derail a solidified Jazz pilot group and saw a great opportunity to use the supposed “flow” as a bait and switch. When I first got hired at Jazz, the overwhelming consensus from B scalers was “yah, the pay sucks but it’s short term pain for long term gain. I’m happy to wait here a few years and then I’ll be on my way”. Fast forward to the first equipment bid of 2018 and the landscape has changed a lot. Flow has slowed down considerably. For the most part, the only people flowing are the ones who would have met the OTS requirements anyway. There were only a hand full of upgrades in the YVR base, and the reality that new hires will spend more than just a couple years in the right seat is looming. Suddenly B scale is a long term reality for a lot of people, and they have an easy group of people (A scale) to take that fear and frustration out on.

The division of A scale and B scale has finally begun in force, and I believe this was the long game of the 2015 contract from AC’s point of view. We are being out maneuvered. As a pilot group we need to keep the big picture in mind, and that’s fair WAWCON for EVERY pilot on the list. AC wants us to tear each other to pieces and we are starting to do their dirty work for them. It’s a chicken sh!t move for an A scaler to wave the “entitled millennial” flag. I can’t tell you how many FOs I’ve flown with that came here under the impression that they would either flow or upgrade within 2 years. These are people with 5-10 years in the industry and now they are facing long waits in the right seat and can’t afford to support their families. That’s not entitlement, that’s survival. It’s also achicken sh!t move for a B scaler to say A scale sold them out. A scale was at risk of losing their jobs and staring all over again, some for the multiple time. Most of us B scalers would have voted the same way. This bickering is not productive or healthy. We need to understand the struggles that both scales face, and move together towards a better contract in the future.

Let’s remain in solidarity.

PR

It's an industry issue that Jazz and all other companies in Canada are caught in. It is not driven by management it is driven by the consumer. The consumer doesn't care who they are flying on any more than you care if you bought your new TV from Best Buy or Amazon. No different than a family of 4 taking that yearly vacation on WOW instead of WJ hench the real need for Swoop. Although there are some points to be made about supply and demand the job of being a pilot is changing. It will always be a highly respected job and a great profession but the function they are fulfilling is becoming a commodity. You dont care where your electricity is coming from and consumers don't care what airline they are on or who is driving. Off-shoring of pilots in Canada by foreign carriers is just yet another reminder that piloting is a global career which can be good but also bad as Canadian pilots are still in the top percentile of what is called "totality of quality, equity and opportunity" meaning that wages may be slightly lower but given the other benefits of working in Canada (Medical, education, opportunity, human rights protections, etc) Canada competes well on the global demand for pilots. The next logical step for companies is not to raise wages (when they are already tops in TQEO), it is to pressure the gov for foreign pilots AND that my friends is where the real fight begins. This petty A scale B scale stuff is simply crumbs. The industry is becoming commoditized the profession is becoming commoditized and things are changing just as they have in countless other industries. Swoop is essential, B scale at Jazz is essential and it being driven by the consumer. Try and tell a pax to fly Jazz instead of Sky because the pilots are paid more. Aint gonna happen. Try and tell a pax to fly Jazz because they are better than GGN. Aint gonna happen. Tell a pax to fly WJ instead of Wow because the bad company is fighting with its pilots, aint gonna happen. Bottom line is not enough of us shopped at Sears because we were driven by price and so are the people that fill our airplanes. An airline is providing a commoditized service for the first time in our young industry thanks to globalization and - guess what - thats a good thing for consumers.
Agree with some of that. It is a changing field due to globalization and yes on balance Canada is pretty good, some folks love to point to the US but dont factor in the medical system, pvt school for kids, cost of college and in general just having to be in the US compared to Canada. The issue at Jazz is that the B scale was and is necessary to compete and remain relevant.
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digits_
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by digits_ » Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:56 pm

AvifiskAlly wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:08 am
The issue at Jazz is that the B scale was and is necessary to compete and remain relevant.
Why? I don't get it.

Without paying too much attention to the exact numbers. Let's say for whatever reason the pilot group needs to take a 10% pay cut to stay competitive. Why does that result in the junior guys taking a 25% paycut and the senior guys 2% raise? Why not all take a 10% paycut? Or an absolute number instead of the percentages.

Why do you need a separate pay scale?
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mbav8r
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by mbav8r » Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:50 pm

This was my viewpoint at the time, there was no guarantee attached to the contract other than a 5 year extension to a reduced CPA. We were being reduced regardless, that was made clear, we were operating above the minimum guaranteed by the CPA and if we did not play ball, the flying would’ve been reduced to the minimum.
So, let’s say we take a 10% haircut across the board, spread the pain around without any guarantee or protection of the current flying. As pilots move over to AC on the PML, there was nothing preventing AC from reducing our flying and shifting it to SR or GGN.
The other option, nobody currently at Jazz affected, call it a grandfather clause. Then the next step, are pilots willing to join for the new package, apparently yes. This was supposed to make us competitive for any new work that came up, how’d that work out for us. Since we signed, SR grew by 10 175s and GGN does all the RJ work we used to do out of YYZ. Can you see why we chose the protect our current conditions.
Not that this will matter but I had a look at my wages when I joined Jazz, keeping in mind the buying power would be reduced today, anyhow the current starting wage is about 4000.00 more per year than mine was. The biggest improvement for the 2010 contract was to the first 3 years, obviously it was too much because it’s now the 4-6 years pay.
The other factor, Jazz spends about 50,000 on your initial training and if you’re only here for a year or two, the low wages offsets that cost a little, kinda like a bond but not really because you could leave right after your line indoc at no cost to you.
Are you not happy making over 200g more than I did in the first 10 years?
Proposing the senior guys freeze their pay so you can make a little more on your way to AC is not going to win you any friends, if your staying at Jazz, take the left seat as soon as you can and you’ll be making far more than a slight raise as an FO.
There will come a point the movement slows significantly and hopefully pilots will vote with their feet but history being what it is I don’t think that’ll happen.
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Mart
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by Mart » Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:05 pm

Hello again, glad to see my crazy idea had a lot of echo, some bad and some good. I'll try to forget all the personal attack witch I was expecting anyway since it's a normal defence mechanism when you feel your loosing control.

First of all let me reassure some of you and try to aim the discussion back on the right way. I will NOT support this idea. :shock: Yes thats right because that idea is what management is drooling right now over us. Divide and conquer as usual. That's the only reason why Jazz is stuck in such a bad deal.

First of all lets correct some fact:

Jazz and AC gave a 1 times payement of 10 millions $ to a small group of pilot so they could vote against them. Don't believe me, look at the financial report from Jazz. https://chorusaviation.ca/financial-statements The information is all here and free to the public. Now how many of those pilots do you think are still at Jazz not on purpose but because they got denied by AC. So even those who wanted to stay and like their life at Jazz were force into this agreement. Like someone said A scale are now looking at almost a 15 years wage freeze even if industry is booming. :shock: Talk about Poutine trick on Trump administration it's amazing what trick Jazz management did on our group and ALPA didn't help in anyway.

According to a statement from management on the Q4 2017 result: "Transitioned a significant portion of the workforce to new industry competitive wage scales; currently 52% of Jazz pilots are operating under the new collective agreement." :shock:
So management are clearly well aware of our division and could still play trick on us.

Don't fall also for the mathematic limbo thrown at us by management and forwarded by ALPA on the overall pay is better since the upgrade are quicker. Wage are paid hourly and have always been. Time to upgrade is not a negotiable asset just like per diem are not a wage. Yes does who are lucky to upgrade quick will come on top on short period of time but remember B scale take 3 more years also to reach top scale. So long therm they will loose again. And what will you say to those who won't get an upgrade because the music is slowing already. What about those hired in Dec. 2015 and upgrade within 2 years on A scale, they are now the best paid pilot at regional level according to the same Math limbo. Are you mad at them too because they were lucky to upgrade sooner? Yes timing stand for a lot in aviation but should not stand for a reason to lower hourly wage.

Scared of loosing flying to other regional provider (Sky, GRG, EVAS) so you would accept anything to keep your job. Guess what, look at the AC quarterly statement. It's going to happen anyway. Jazz is looking to do more leasing flying then contract flying and AC wants the regional flyer to be equal partner. As of now Jazz is still the biggest partner and with the leasing business they will do with AC they will still stay that way, but we won't be the major contract flyer anymore so stop signing reduction or wage freeze your just gifting shareholders and you won't change the plan they put in long time ago. :wink:

Now for the B scale wage. Yes the entry wage is very low, but until mainline raise there own entry level it will stay like this and unfortunately thanks to other carrier it's also the Canadian industry entry wage. So not much to do. But the biggest problem with B scale is the fact that in Canada now at least at Jazz, EQUAL WORK doesn't mean EQUAL PAY anymore. AND THAT IS THE ISSUE!

This issue need to be address quickly before other do the same. ALPA and ALL the pilot have to stand strong just like our women did in the past to request the same wage then their male coworker. Let the words out that the winners of the top employer of the year is also proud to promote discrimination among it's employee based on a date of hire. And even thought it is legally accepted at the federal level, every province in Canada made these orphelin status illegal.

Finally be ready for the 2025 collective bargaining because they will play the same tricks again but hopefully you are more inform now. Like PR said: "Let’s remain in solidarity."

Sorry if I scared the hell out of some of you. :lol:
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mbav8r
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by mbav8r » Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:45 am

Mart wrote;
Jazz and AC gave a 1 times payement of 10 millions $ to a small group of pilot so they could vote against them. Don't believe me, look at the financial report from Jazz
Mart,
I’m not sure how to take you, for example this particular claim you made is completely false unless by small group of pilots you meant to say the entire group of pilots including those on leave of absence, STD and maternity/paternity leave. It was also considered a signing bonus which is normal business practice typically in lieu of retroactive pay when there is a gap between the last contract expiring and a new one implemented.
Don’t believe me(sarcasm)
WHEREAS on January 12, 2015 the Association and the Company entered into a Memorandum of Settlement amending, inter alia, Collective Agreement No. 2 (the “Memorandum of Settlement”) which includes a lump sum payment to eligible Pilots in the amount of ten million dollars ($10,000,000.00); and
1) “Eligible Pilot[s]” shall mean all active bargaining unit employees and all inactive bargaining unit employees on a leave of absence of 180 days or less or who have not passed the change of definition date on Long Term Disability, but in any event including Pilots on maternity or paternity leave for the duration of the leave.
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av8ts
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by av8ts » Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:24 pm

With many professions (doctors, lawyers etc) your starting pay is based on experience. Most of the f/o’s I’m flying with are making twice the pay and flying half the hours (stick time) than what I made with the same experience. That’s 4 times what I was was making 20 years ago. Maybe instead of an A and B scale we should just base pay on your actual hours.
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FL-280
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by FL-280 » Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:13 pm

av8ts wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:24 pm
With many professions (doctors, lawyers etc) your starting pay is based on experience. Most of the f/o’s I’m flying with are making twice the pay and flying half the hours (stick time) than what I made with the same experience. That’s 4 times what I was was making 20 years ago. Maybe instead of an A and B scale we should just base pay on your actual hours.
You have to be kidding.... You guys will make up anything to keep the top scale intact and DB pension until you retire.
Comparing wages now and twenty years ago, thats plain stupid. Is a first year f/o with let's say 1000 hours supposed to feel super lucky because he has a 38k per year job?
Mind you some of them are flying jets in High Density airspace and putting up with your BS.

With more and more groundschools at AC going by with plenty of Encore pilots on them, it's looking like the FPMA is crap and we will be around for a while, So equal work should be equal pay.
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montado
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by montado » Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:40 pm

If in 1988 you made 20k a year that is the same as today's fo starting pay.

If in 1998 you made 26k a year this is the same as today's fo starting pay.

If in 2008 you made 32k a year this is the same as today's fo starting pay.

And most interesting, one hundred years ago 2400 bucks is the equivalent to today's fo starting pay.

Source https://www.bankofcanada.ca/rates/relat ... alculator/

If it's any wonder why your kids tell you they will never own a house, look no further than this calculator reflecting back on your salary. Mind you your generation was the leading edge of consume, and now we are reaching the depths of spending money on any and every gadget or subscription you can think of. It's a different world today with avocado toast and iPhones.
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mbav8r
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by mbav8r » Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:55 pm

FL-280 wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:13 pm
av8ts wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:24 pm
With many professions (doctors, lawyers etc) your starting pay is based on experience. Most of the f/o’s I’m flying with are making twice the pay and flying half the hours (stick time) than what I made with the same experience. That’s 4 times what I was was making 20 years ago. Maybe instead of an A and B scale we should just base pay on your actual hours.
You have to be kidding.... You guys will make up anything to keep the top scale intact and DB pension until you retire.
Comparing wages now and twenty years ago, thats plain stupid.Is a first year f/o with let's say 1000 hours supposed to feel super lucky because he has a 38k per year job?
Mind you some of them are flying jets in High Density airspace and putting up with your BS.

With more and more groundschools at AC going by with plenty of Encore pilots on them, it's looking like the FPMA is crap and we will be around for a while, So equal work should be equal pay.
Thank you for displaying exactly what embodies the sense of entitlement people keep talking about!
10 years ago, you would of been scrubbing toilets and cleaning the boss’s car while waiting to load another freighter of pop and chips, living in buttfuck nowhere for a lot less than 38,000.
Can I point something out to you, YOU DIDNT HAVE TO TAKE THE JOB!!!!! And that comment at the top says a lot about what type of person you are, not only did you take the job but now you’re making thinly veiled threats about my DB pension.
I’m willing to wager you will be turned down by AC, they will see you for what you are and unfortunately that means we’re stuck with you, good luck though
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Alcoholism
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by Alcoholism » Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:35 pm

mbav8r wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:55 pm
FL-280 wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:13 pm
av8ts wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:24 pm
With many professions (doctors, lawyers etc) your starting pay is based on experience. Most of the f/o’s I’m flying with are making twice the pay and flying half the hours (stick time) than what I made with the same experience. That’s 4 times what I was was making 20 years ago. Maybe instead of an A and B scale we should just base pay on your actual hours.
You have to be kidding.... You guys will make up anything to keep the top scale intact and DB pension until you retire.
Comparing wages now and twenty years ago, thats plain stupid.Is a first year f/o with let's say 1000 hours supposed to feel super lucky because he has a 38k per year job?
Mind you some of them are flying jets in High Density airspace and putting up with your BS.

With more and more groundschools at AC going by with plenty of Encore pilots on them, it's looking like the FPMA is crap and we will be around for a while, So equal work should be equal pay.
Thank you for displaying exactly what embodies the sense of entitlement people keep talking about!
10 years ago, you would of been scrubbing toilets and cleaning the boss’s car while waiting to load another freighter of pop and chips, living in buttfuck nowhere for a lot less than 38,000.
Can I point something out to you, YOU DIDNT HAVE TO TAKE THE JOB!!!!! And that comment at the top says a lot about what type of person you are, not only did you take the job but now you’re making thinly veiled threats about my DB pension.
I’m willing to wager you will be turned down by AC, they will see you for what you are and unfortunately that means we’re stuck with you, good luck though
Wrong! He/she is exactly AC material
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digits_
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by digits_ » Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:06 am

Are the new hires today still getting the DB pension?
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prop2jet
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Re: Bargaining idea

Post by prop2jet » Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:37 am

digits_ wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:06 am
Are the new hires today still getting the DB pension?
No.
All B scale are on a DC plan.
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