Sim Eval 2018

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FL-280
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Re: Sim Eval 2018

Post by FL-280 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:40 pm

I have flown both types of aircraft at Jazz. Both the Crj and Classic. The dash is a much better aircraft for a 250 hour wonder.

The crj is too much aircraft, flown in high density airspace and would limits the stick and rudder time compared to the classic. Do yourself a favor and bid for classic or q....
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Re: Sim Eval 2018

Post by Lightchop » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:08 pm

Canoehead wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:06 pm
Lightchop wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 11:53 am
If you're like any of the other low time college hires I've flown with, I'm not worried.

Word of advice, ignore the haters. At training, in the hotel etc. you'll likely get a bit of chirps even if they are in a "nice way." Just put your head down, work your ass off, minimize the time you spend at the lobby lounge and bid the jet if you can. Everyone will tell you to take the classic since you're lower time. Don't. Bid the RJ.
If you want to set yourself up for the best chance at success, you should choose the most suitable type. For a 250 Hr pilot, that is likely not the CRJ.
It's the easiest type I've ever done. Everything is QRC, the FMS is better, the A/P is better, hell... the training pilots are better. Everything is better.
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Rupert.Pupkin
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Re: Sim Eval 2018

Post by Rupert.Pupkin » Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:19 pm

Lightchop wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:08 pm
Canoehead wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:06 pm
Lightchop wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 11:53 am
If you're like any of the other low time college hires I've flown with, I'm not worried.

Word of advice, ignore the haters. At training, in the hotel etc. you'll likely get a bit of chirps even if they are in a "nice way." Just put your head down, work your ass off, minimize the time you spend at the lobby lounge and bid the jet if you can. Everyone will tell you to take the classic since you're lower time. Don't. Bid the RJ.
If you want to set yourself up for the best chance at success, you should choose the most suitable type. For a 250 Hr pilot, that is likely not the CRJ.
It's the easiest type I've ever done. Everything is QRC, the FMS is better, the A/P is better, hell... the training pilots are better. Everything is better.
Couldn't agree more
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Re: Sim Eval 2018

Post by Canoehead » Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:25 am

Lightchop wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:08 pm
It's the easiest type I've ever done. Everything is QRC, the FMS is better, the A/P is better, hell... the training pilots are better. Everything is better.
Do you have support for those comments? It's got nothing to do with what someone thinks is "better" about the airplane (or broadly thinks about their fellow pilots). It's about what is better for the prospective candidate to ensure the best opportunity for success.
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Re: Sim Eval 2018

Post by Lightchop » Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:11 pm

Canoehead wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:25 am
Lightchop wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:08 pm
It's the easiest type I've ever done. Everything is QRC, the FMS is better, the A/P is better, hell... the training pilots are better. Everything is better.
Do you have support for those comments? It's got nothing to do with what someone thinks is "better" about the airplane (or broadly thinks about their fellow pilots). It's about what is better for the prospective candidate to ensure the best opportunity for success.
Well I only had piston experience, no uni.. And I'm certainly not the smartest person I know. I've also done a Q400 type and found it more work and more difficult. Mostly due to the excessive memory items and numerous "gotchas" the aircraft has. They both fly about the same hands and feet wise aside from the yaw in the Q400.

I know a few college hires that went into the jet all with no issues. On the flip side I know a few high time and experienced turbo prop pilots who had issues in the Q400 training.

Everyone's different, this is just my personal opinion.

YMMV
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Re: Sim Eval 2018

Post by Lightchop » Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:16 pm

Canoehead wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:25 am
Lightchop wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:08 pm
It's the easiest type I've ever done. Everything is QRC, the FMS is better, the A/P is better, hell... the training pilots are better. Everything is better.
Do you have support for those comments? It's got nothing to do with what someone thinks is "better" about the airplane (or broadly thinks about their fellow pilots). It's about what is better for the prospective candidate to ensure the best opportunity for success.
The support is in the comment you quoted. The entire aircraft is better designed from a pilots perspective. The A/P, FMS, QRC alone are huge difference makers in my opinion.

I had a lot more experience when I did the Q rating. Granted I haven't flown it but everyone I've spoken to about it said the dash classic rating is the hardest in the fleet. It's all old school, same amount if not more memory items than the Q. Same garbage FMS, terrible FCP/altsel etc. If that's what you're after then great.

If we're solely speaking from an initial hire "recipe for success" angle, I believe the RJ is the easiest rating.
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Re: Sim Eval 2018

Post by FL-280 » Tue Sep 11, 2018 2:16 pm

Lightchop wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:16 pm
Canoehead wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:25 am
Lightchop wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:08 pm
It's the easiest type I've ever done. Everything is QRC, the FMS is better, the A/P is better, hell... the training pilots are better. Everything is better.
Do you have support for those comments? It's got nothing to do with what someone thinks is "better" about the airplane (or broadly thinks about their fellow pilots). It's about what is better for the prospective candidate to ensure the best opportunity for success.
The support is in the comment you quoted. The entire aircraft is better designed from a pilots perspective. The A/P, FMS, QRC alone are huge difference makers in my opinion.

I had a lot more experience when I did the Q rating. Granted I haven't flown it but everyone I've spoken to about it said the dash classic rating is the hardest in the fleet. It's all old school, same amount if not more memory items than the Q. Same garbage FMS, terrible FCP/altsel etc. If that's what you're after then great.

If we're solely speaking from an initial hire "recipe for success" angle, I believe the RJ is the easiest rating.
Until line indoc comes along and that QRC stays in the side pocket and now you're flying high density pedal to the metal Stars in the US....
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Re: Sim Eval 2018

Post by Rupert.Pupkin » Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:24 pm

FL-280 wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 2:16 pm
Lightchop wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:16 pm
Canoehead wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:25 am


Do you have support for those comments? It's got nothing to do with what someone thinks is "better" about the airplane (or broadly thinks about their fellow pilots). It's about what is better for the prospective candidate to ensure the best opportunity for success.
The support is in the comment you quoted. The entire aircraft is better designed from a pilots perspective. The A/P, FMS, QRC alone are huge difference makers in my opinion.

I had a lot more experience when I did the Q rating. Granted I haven't flown it but everyone I've spoken to about it said the dash classic rating is the hardest in the fleet. It's all old school, same amount if not more memory items than the Q. Same garbage FMS, terrible FCP/altsel etc. If that's what you're after then great.

If we're solely speaking from an initial hire "recipe for success" angle, I believe the RJ is the easiest rating.
Until line indoc comes along and that QRC stays in the side pocket and now you're flying high density pedal to the metal Stars in the US....
The only place I would be concerned going with a brand new person on the RJ is a night flight to DCA. I would just fly it so problem solved.
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Re: Sim Eval 2018

Post by Lightchop » Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:37 pm

FL-280 wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 2:16 pm
Lightchop wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:16 pm
Canoehead wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:25 am


Do you have support for those comments? It's got nothing to do with what someone thinks is "better" about the airplane (or broadly thinks about their fellow pilots). It's about what is better for the prospective candidate to ensure the best opportunity for success.
The support is in the comment you quoted. The entire aircraft is better designed from a pilots perspective. The A/P, FMS, QRC alone are huge difference makers in my opinion.

I had a lot more experience when I did the Q rating. Granted I haven't flown it but everyone I've spoken to about it said the dash classic rating is the hardest in the fleet. It's all old school, same amount if not more memory items than the Q. Same garbage FMS, terrible FCP/altsel etc. If that's what you're after then great.

If we're solely speaking from an initial hire "recipe for success" angle, I believe the RJ is the easiest rating.
Until line indoc comes along and that QRC stays in the side pocket and now you're flying high density pedal to the metal Stars in the US....
Yeah and that's super fun and it made me a hell of a better pilot. I'll take high density US over YXY and YDF etc. any day.
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Re: Sim Eval 2018

Post by Canoehead » Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:44 pm

I think you fellas are missing the point.
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Re: Sim Eval 2018

Post by Lightchop » Wed Sep 12, 2018 12:26 am

Rupert.Pupkin wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:24 pm
FL-280 wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 2:16 pm
Lightchop wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:16 pm


The support is in the comment you quoted. The entire aircraft is better designed from a pilots perspective. The A/P, FMS, QRC alone are huge difference makers in my opinion.

I had a lot more experience when I did the Q rating. Granted I haven't flown it but everyone I've spoken to about it said the dash classic rating is the hardest in the fleet. It's all old school, same amount if not more memory items than the Q. Same garbage FMS, terrible FCP/altsel etc. If that's what you're after then great.

If we're solely speaking from an initial hire "recipe for success" angle, I believe the RJ is the easiest rating.
Until line indoc comes along and that QRC stays in the side pocket and now you're flying high density pedal to the metal Stars in the US....
The only place I would be concerned going with a brand new person on the RJ is a night flight to DCA. I would just fly it so problem solved.
Agreed, heck even the day. But damn finding that river is difficult on a dim night.

When I was an FO, I flew with a Captain who was new on type and asked me to fly it so he could be PM first. He was a bit on the edge of his seat the whole way, that final turn is a fun one for someone who's never done it before.

The expressway visual into LGA was a good one too, but that's no longer a destination of ours.
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Re: Sim Eval 2018

Post by Lightchop » Wed Sep 12, 2018 12:27 am

Canoehead wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:44 pm
I think you fellas are missing the point.
No, we just disagree. Which is fine, I understand your point. Have you flown the RJ?.. not sure if I missed that somewhere up there.
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Re: Sim Eval 2018

Post by DH8Pilot » Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:08 am

I think the point shouldn't be centred around which aircraft is the easiest to pass in the sim, or which aircraft is the most taxing to fly. Instead, I think it should be centred on which aircraft is the most conducive to developing good piloting knowledge and skills for a low-time pilot. In my opinion, that's the DH8, hands-down.
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Re: Sim Eval 2018

Post by Rupert.Pupkin » Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:55 am

DH8Pilot wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:08 am
I think the point shouldn't be centred around which aircraft is the easiest to pass in the sim, or which aircraft is the most taxing to fly. Instead, I think it should be centred on which aircraft is the most conducive to developing good piloting knowledge and skills for a low-time pilot. In my opinion, that's the DH8, hands-down.
Define good piloting knowledge and skills. The reality is all of our aircraft have autopilot so its not very difficult no matter which aircraft you are on. Plus you have a captain to hold your hand the entire way.
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Re: Sim Eval 2018

Post by Inverted2 » Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:46 am

It doesn't really matter what you fly at Jazz. The pay is the same. The training is second to none. Go in with a good attitude. I found the RJ FMS a little more user friendly. The Dash classic is a "pilots" airplane. Very hands on and forgiving. Nice and slow and built like a tank. The Q400 is like a high maintenance Dash 8 classic. You have to be a bit more on your game with performance numbers etc and the yaw every time you change pitch and power is annoying. Other than that it's a great place to work. Small enough bases that you get to know everyone eventually.
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Re: Sim Eval 2018

Post by Outlaw58 » Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:13 pm

Rupert.Pupkin wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:55 am
DH8Pilot wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:08 am
I think the point shouldn't be centred around which aircraft is the easiest to pass in the sim, or which aircraft is the most taxing to fly. Instead, I think it should be centred on which aircraft is the most conducive to developing good piloting knowledge and skills for a low-time pilot. In my opinion, that's the DH8, hands-down.
Define good piloting knowledge and skills. The reality is all of our aircraft have autopilot so its not very difficult no matter which aircraft you are on. Plus you have a captain to hold your hand the entire way.
By that logic, neither is the 320, or 330, or 767....heck or even the 777 or 787 for that matter.

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Re: Sim Eval 2018

Post by Lightchop » Wed Sep 12, 2018 6:18 pm

And many 250 hour pilots all over the world successfully fly those types.
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Re: Sim Eval 2018

Post by Rupert.Pupkin » Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:12 am

Outlaw58 wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:13 pm
Rupert.Pupkin wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:55 am
DH8Pilot wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:08 am
I think the point shouldn't be centred around which aircraft is the easiest to pass in the sim, or which aircraft is the most taxing to fly. Instead, I think it should be centred on which aircraft is the most conducive to developing good piloting knowledge and skills for a low-time pilot. In my opinion, that's the DH8, hands-down.
Define good piloting knowledge and skills. The reality is all of our aircraft have autopilot so its not very difficult no matter which aircraft you are on. Plus you have a captain to hold your hand the entire way.
By that logic, neither is the 320, or 330, or 767....heck or even the 777 or 787 for that matter.

58
With the right training anyone can fly those airplanes. The actual difficult flying is hand bombing twin turbines around up north all day in crappy weather. Doing a hand flown approach to mins after 13:45 hours of flying all day. My opinion though.
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Re: Sim Eval 2018

Post by Cristian92 » Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:48 am

dustincanuck wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 11:43 pm
Yah I know it is kinda crazy but I'm just taking the opportunities that come to me. We'll see I haven't got a job offer yet but hopefully soon. I think the plan is the RJ. I would like to be in YVR or yyc and I hear both YVR and yyc RJ is a pretty good schedule. Anything would be amazing though so we'll just see what happens. Not Seneca btw but similar.
Just for your info jazz is overstaff right now and you will probably be placed in a pool for couple of months so you might have to wait for the job offer a bit.
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Re: Sim Eval 2018

Post by DH8Pilot » Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:01 am

Rupert.Pupkin wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:55 am
DH8Pilot wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:08 am
I think the point shouldn't be centred around which aircraft is the easiest to pass in the sim, or which aircraft is the most taxing to fly. Instead, I think it should be centred on which aircraft is the most conducive to developing good piloting knowledge and skills for a low-time pilot. In my opinion, that's the DH8, hands-down.
Define good piloting knowledge and skills. The reality is all of our aircraft have autopilot so its not very difficult no matter which aircraft you are on. Plus you have a captain to hold your hand the entire way.
In my opinion, the first 1000hrs of a pilot's career are fundamental in developing their knowledge and hands-and-feet flying. While I agree the extent to which this is possible at Jazz is limited, relative to the northern flying much of us started with, the DH8 offers the best option to do so of all the aircraft in the fleet.

Like I said earlier, you're down low in the weather, doing the most amounts of legs per day. The more you get to see this type of operation, the better off you are. Like anything, practice makes perfect, and I'd argue a low-time pilot would benefit more doing a bunch of short DH8 hops per day, than a couple of longer RJ flights, up above the weather, landing on long runways with almost exclusively ILS approaches.

As mentioned by another user, the DH8 is a more forgiving aircraft flying wise, making it an easier transition from the trainer type aircraft the college applicants would've flown before. However, in terms of system knowledge, I'd argue the DH8 demands a greater extent of it, given the limited help it gives you with respect to indicators and the QRH. I've never flown the Q or RJ, but those I know who've transitioned onto it say these planes will do a lot more for your in emergencies.
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Re: Sim Eval 2018

Post by Outlaw58 » Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:21 pm

DH8Pilot wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:01 am
Rupert.Pupkin wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:55 am
DH8Pilot wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:08 am
I think the point shouldn't be centred around which aircraft is the easiest to pass in the sim, or which aircraft is the most taxing to fly. Instead, I think it should be centred on which aircraft is the most conducive to developing good piloting knowledge and skills for a low-time pilot. In my opinion, that's the DH8, hands-down.
Define good piloting knowledge and skills. The reality is all of our aircraft have autopilot so its not very difficult no matter which aircraft you are on. Plus you have a captain to hold your hand the entire way.
In my opinion, the first 1000hrs of a pilot's career are fundamental in developing their knowledge and hands-and-feet flying. While I agree the extent to which this is possible at Jazz is limited, relative to the northern flying much of us started with, the DH8 offers the best option to do so of all the aircraft in the fleet.

Like I said earlier, you're down low in the weather, doing the most amounts of legs per day. The more you get to see this type of operation, the better off you are. Like anything, practice makes perfect, and I'd argue a low-time pilot would benefit more doing a bunch of short DH8 hops per day, than a couple of longer RJ flights, up above the weather, landing on long runways with almost exclusively ILS approaches.

As mentioned by another user, the DH8 is a more forgiving aircraft flying wise, making it an easier transition from the trainer type aircraft the college applicants would've flown before. However, in terms of system knowledge, I'd argue the DH8 demands a greater extent of it, given the limited help it gives you with respect to indicators and the QRH. I've never flown the Q or RJ, but those I know who've transitioned onto it say these planes will do a lot more for your in emergencies.
I tend to agree with that.

While the previous posters make a valid case that anyone can fly those highly automated planes with the right training, I also believe that it is not a good idea to put someone in those cockpit who hasn't previously benefited from the hand-bombing, system knowledge development and most importantly, the decision-making skills that comes with this type of flying. At the risk of being a bit rude, only someone who hasn't benefited from that kind of experience would think that just because it is doable, low experience pilots should jump right to the advanced cockpits.

Reality is that technology does fail and when it does, what kind of piloting experience do you want up front? I'd like to think that there is a bit more to flying as an FO (especially if you don't plan on sticking in the right seat) than to proficiently smash the buttons the captain tells you to.

That being said, regarding the OP's dilemma, is that on the 2nd day of ground school, whether you get to fly the RJ, the Q or the classic could very well be left entirely up to you. You have an entire flying career ahead of you, choose wisely.

58
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Last edited by Outlaw58 on Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sim Eval 2018

Post by C-GGGQ » Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:19 pm

I'm going to flip this around for a change

"I can't believe you ask someone freshly licensed to fly a metro without autopilot into small dirt strips in bad Canadian weather with no precision approaches. They should have to earn the experience to fly those challenging and dangerous routes with an experienced captain on board an jet that is highly automated. Less for him to screw up till he learns proper decision making"

I mean water bombers and other low and slow aircraft are reserved for high timers. Why wouldn't bad northern routes in old aircraft with no modern systems to help?

Argue away.
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Re: Sim Eval 2018

Post by Outlaw58 » Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:50 pm

OK...fine,

There was this dude who stumbled on to people that didn't have hands and had never met anyone with hands. The dude said look! I have hands and the folks replied:"What are hands??"

Don't get it? thats ok.

58

"Experience is something someone acquires a second after needing it"
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Re: Sim Eval 2018

Post by dustincanuck » Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:35 pm

I appreciate the advice guys. Lots to think about. I'm just focusing on actually getting a job offer right now while exploring some other flying opportunities should Jazz throw me in the pool for an undetermined amount of time. I'll worry about what to bid if I get a groundschool date!
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Re: Sim Eval 2018

Post by C-GGGQ » Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:42 pm

Outlaw58 wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:50 pm
OK...fine,

There was this dude who stumbled on to people that didn't have hands and had never met anyone with hands. The dude said look! I have hands and the folks replied:"What are hands??"

Don't get it? thats ok.

58

"Experience is something someone acquires a second after needing it"
I get what you are saying. I would debate that while the person with hands would be at a total loss if his hands were removed, the people without hands would just ignore them if granted as they never needed it before. Also, to be clear I'm just home sick and stirring the pot. seeing if someone comes up with a half decent argument.

However as gaining experience factors in to the OP's decision, I would say that any aircraft in the fleet for a new pilot is going to be drinking from the fire hose. In the current climate and market I also think it would be doing him a disservice to tell him to bid something just cause "it will make you a better pilot" which I think is debatable when talking about classic, vs q, rj. Instead of telling him, as we would to any senior pilot, to bid the lifestyle/ schedule he wants. I mean what he bids and what he gets wont necessarily be the same thing of course, so don't bid just cause some senior guys think it's better for you. When likely there is some (not totally, but some) factor of " you don't deserve it yet" we are all guilty of that to some extent. I couldn't believe students were being allowed things like foreflight and e6b apps in training just cause it didn't exist back when I did mine so why should you get it.
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