Things are brewing in the kitchen.

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HansDietrich
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by HansDietrich »

Interesting times. I can't see I saw that coming. So AC owning part of "Jazz" now, would that put it at a conflict of interest, in regard to GGN and SKY? If you owned part of my company, and gave work away to a competitor, how would I feel about that? Honestly, I have to admit: I'm very perplexed when it comes to economics, especially in the airline industry.
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Inverted2
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by Inverted2 »

Jazz had a large amount of its YYZ flying taken away and given to SKY and GGN a few years ago. GGN made a mess of it. This is the result. Too soon to see how it will all play out though.
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KenoraPilot
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by KenoraPilot »

Only time will tell.......but doesn't sound fantastic for GGN.
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daedalusx
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by daedalusx »

Seems like our Georgian colleagues might be offered employment at Jazz.
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KenoraPilot
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by KenoraPilot »

Well all 12 GGN RJ200s are coming back to Jazz in 2019.
Will see how they are “offered employment”
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Transition9er2
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by Transition9er2 »

Nothing about pay increase... must be by design?

AC wins if anyone wants to stay at Jazz cause pay is so low.
AC wins if anyone wants to flow over cause they’re so short pilots... and newbies go on fixed pay.

It’s a win - win - win for AC.

Personally I don’t necessarily want to go to AC.... if pay was improved along with the news today I would seriously consider Jazz home for the rest of my career.

Anyone else on B scale think the same?
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ogc
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by ogc »

Transition9er2 wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:37 am Nothing about pay increase... must be by design?

AC wins if anyone wants to stay at Jazz cause pay is so low.
AC wins if anyone wants to flow over cause they’re so short pilots... and newbies go on fixed pay.

It’s a win - win - win for AC.

Personally I don’t necessarily want to go to AC.... if pay was improved along with the news today I would seriously consider Jazz home for the rest of my career.

Anyone else on B scale think the same?
I dont think the Bscale will go anywhere. I imagine the better mobility agreement will be enough of a carrot to the new hires and the return of jets to Toronto enough for the senior guys.
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PostmasterGeneral
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by PostmasterGeneral »

Transition9er2 wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:37 am Nothing about pay increase... must be by design?

AC wins if anyone wants to stay at Jazz cause pay is so low.
AC wins if anyone wants to flow over cause they’re so short pilots... and newbies go on fixed pay.

It’s a win - win - win for AC.

Personally I don’t necessarily want to go to AC.... if pay was improved along with the news today I would seriously consider Jazz home for the rest of my career.

Anyone else on B scale think the same?
B-Scale pay was agreed to because upgrades now come about 6-8 years sooner than they used to. A pilot who started at Jazz in 2015 will make more over his career than those guys who started in 2010, because of the early upgrades.

I agree the B scale sucks, (I’m one of the guys on that scale) but it’s inportant to understand WHY it was voted in the first place. Not defending it, just offering an explanation as to why it is what it is.
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PostmasterGeneral
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by PostmasterGeneral »

ogc wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:43 am
Transition9er2 wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:37 am Nothing about pay increase... must be by design?

AC wins if anyone wants to stay at Jazz cause pay is so low.
AC wins if anyone wants to flow over cause they’re so short pilots... and newbies go on fixed pay.

It’s a win - win - win for AC.

Personally I don’t necessarily want to go to AC.... if pay was improved along with the news today I would seriously consider Jazz home for the rest of my career.

Anyone else on B scale think the same?
I dont think the Bscale will go anywhere. I imagine the better mobility agreement will be enough of a carrot to the new hires and the return of jets to Toronto enough for the senior guys.
Jazz will want something out of the new mobility agreement as well. Expect some sort of “time limit” to the tune of “spend 4 years at Jazz and be eligible for an interview with Air Canada.”
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by PostmasterGeneral »

HansDietrich wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:15 am Interesting times. I can't see I saw that coming. So AC owning part of "Jazz" now, would that put it at a conflict of interest, in regard to GGN and SKY? If you owned part of my company, and gave work away to a competitor, how would I feel about that? Honestly, I have to admit: I'm very perplexed when it comes to economics, especially in the airline industry.
See, you wouldn’t have been stuck on the Classic forever after all if you’d have stayed!
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Kosiw
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by Kosiw »

Hey Rudder !

What are your thoughts on all these developments ???
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Transition9er2
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by Transition9er2 »

Hey I get it, things happened in 2015 because they had to be done at that time. I don’t disagree with you there.

All I’m saying is that now, probably more than ever, we have an opportunity to make a real difference in this industry. It would be nice to see Jazz rise to more of the North American standards in terms of pilot pay. It would make Jazz go from a really good company a GREAT company to work for.

That’s all I have to say about that.
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HansDietrich
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by HansDietrich »

PostmasterGeneral wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:47 am
HansDietrich wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:15 am Interesting times. I can't see I saw that coming. So AC owning part of "Jazz" now, would that put it at a conflict of interest, in regard to GGN and SKY? If you owned part of my company, and gave work away to a competitor, how would I feel about that? Honestly, I have to admit: I'm very perplexed when it comes to economics, especially in the airline industry.
See, you wouldn’t have been stuck on the Classic forever after all if you’d have stayed!
Very true. I may end up regretting it, but then again, I regret not buying that $300,000 home in Toronto when I first moved to Canada. I would've been a millionaire now.

It's hard to foresee these things. I hope this change will improve Jazz and the working conditions. I mean that from the bottom of my heart. I hope guys and girls and Jazz have it better than I did.
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truedude
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by truedude »

Transition9er2 wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:54 am Hey I get it, things happened in 2015 because they had to be done at that time. I don’t disagree with you there.

All I’m saying is that now, probably more than ever, we have an opportunity to make a real difference in this industry. It would be nice to see Jazz rise to more of the North American standards in terms of pilot pay. It would make Jazz go from a really good company a GREAT company to work for.

That’s all I have to say about that.
Without knowing what anything looks like, I do have faith in our negotiating committee, and their abilities. While I can understand why everyone hates the "B" scale, and that you can't bring YOS with you too the left seat, I do believe you need to look at the longer term picture, and the fact that the mobility to the left seat has never been that quick. You will still be light years ahead starting today at Jazz (inflation included) than you would be when I started.

As for making a real difference in the industry, you play the hand you are being dealt. And for anyone who was not around in the industry in the late 90's and around for the merger, or the contract that brought in Rouge, I suggest you do some homework. CR is exceedingly smart, but he will not be taken hostage. If he feels a fair deal has been rejected, he will go to war and be prepared to change everything. He is a long term thinker and I don't believe he is in this to just receive a large paycheck. The only reason Sky Regional exists is because of what happened during our contract negotiations back in 2010. He will burn Jazz to the ground before allowing us to take him hostage again, no matter how much it hurts him today; he thinks long term.

So without knowing what it is, I have a lot of confidence that whatever it is, it is the best they believe they could get.
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rudder
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by rudder »

Kosiw wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:51 am Hey Rudder !

What are your thoughts on all these developments ???
Predictable (mostly). Express fleet getting smaller/ Express average seat gauge getting larger. Only plot twist was AC equity infusion in to CHR. Solidifies the relationship.

Hope there will be opportunity at Jazz for the GGN pilots. Also interested to see how things will evolve with SKY and an aging E175 fleet. Most logical outcome would be further consolidation in to Jazz Express operation/single AOC/dispatch/etc and continued Express fleet renewal.

There is no reason that Express pilots should accept being pitted against each other.

Interesting times.
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Yieldermatik
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by Yieldermatik »

What does this mean to us in the pool waiting for ground schools? Do we get bumped for ggn pilots coming in without going through the hiring process?
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fish4life
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by fish4life »

Yieldermatik wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:03 pm What does this mean to us in the pool waiting for ground schools? Do we get bumped for ggn pilots coming in without going through the hiring process?
my guess would be yes, which you can't possibly be mad at considering they are going to be out of work.
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truedude
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by truedude »

Yieldermatik wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:03 pm What does this mean to us in the pool waiting for ground schools? Do we get bumped for ggn pilots coming in without going through the hiring process?
I don't think so.. The fleet remains the same size for the time being. Ignore the min fleet size for a moment, as we have always been above what the CPA contract states as "min." Those RJ's will be transitioned in, and Air Canada is still taking around 200 pilots from us this year, if not more. We will continue to hire and train.
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by KenoraPilot »

Yieldermatik wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:03 pm What does this mean to us in the pool waiting for ground schools? Do we get bumped for ggn pilots coming in without going through the hiring process?
Remember the GGN RJ's are going to be "phased" into Jazz by the end of 2019.....a long time to hire, train, transition GGN pilots into Jazz. I wouldn't freak out yet as the TA hasn't even gone out to the pilots to vote on. The MEC hasn't even decided to if they WANT to send this to the pilots. My money is they will and the vote will be done quickly, but don't get stressed out over missing GS's. If you're in the pool you're in a good place, it will take 12mths for GGN to transfer all 12RJ's and during that time there is still plenty of attrition from Jazz to AC and other operators.
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Outlaw58
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by Outlaw58 »

KenoraPilot wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:31 pm
Yieldermatik wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:03 pm What does this mean to us in the pool waiting for ground schools? Do we get bumped for ggn pilots coming in without going through the hiring process?
Remember the GGN RJ's are going to be "phased" into Jazz by the end of 2019.....a long time to hire, train, transition GGN pilots into Jazz. I wouldn't freak out yet as the TA hasn't even gone out to the pilots to vote on. The MEC hasn't even decided to if they WANT to send this to the pilots. My money is they will and the vote will be done quickly, but don't get stressed out over missing GS's. If you're in the pool you're in a good place, it will take 12mths for GGN to transfer all 12RJ's and during that time there is still plenty of attrition from Jazz to AC and other operators.
No guaranty ALL GGN pilot will want to come over either. Retirement, AC, Transat and Sunwing are all viable career move for them, add a few folks who won't like the flow through package and you're left with only a fraction of the pilots that would grab a GS spot. And as already mentioned above, they wouldn't all flow through at the same time. I wouldn't worry.

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