Things are brewing in the kitchen.

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Kosiw
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by Kosiw » Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:51 am

Hey Rudder !

What are your thoughts on all these developments ???
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Transition9er2
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by Transition9er2 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:54 am

Hey I get it, things happened in 2015 because they had to be done at that time. I don’t disagree with you there.

All I’m saying is that now, probably more than ever, we have an opportunity to make a real difference in this industry. It would be nice to see Jazz rise to more of the North American standards in terms of pilot pay. It would make Jazz go from a really good company a GREAT company to work for.

That’s all I have to say about that.
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HansDietrich
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by HansDietrich » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:03 am

PostmasterGeneral wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:47 am
HansDietrich wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:15 am
Interesting times. I can't see I saw that coming. So AC owning part of "Jazz" now, would that put it at a conflict of interest, in regard to GGN and SKY? If you owned part of my company, and gave work away to a competitor, how would I feel about that? Honestly, I have to admit: I'm very perplexed when it comes to economics, especially in the airline industry.
See, you wouldn’t have been stuck on the Classic forever after all if you’d have stayed!
Very true. I may end up regretting it, but then again, I regret not buying that $300,000 home in Toronto when I first moved to Canada. I would've been a millionaire now.

It's hard to foresee these things. I hope this change will improve Jazz and the working conditions. I mean that from the bottom of my heart. I hope guys and girls and Jazz have it better than I did.
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by truedude » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:38 am

Transition9er2 wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:54 am
Hey I get it, things happened in 2015 because they had to be done at that time. I don’t disagree with you there.

All I’m saying is that now, probably more than ever, we have an opportunity to make a real difference in this industry. It would be nice to see Jazz rise to more of the North American standards in terms of pilot pay. It would make Jazz go from a really good company a GREAT company to work for.

That’s all I have to say about that.
Without knowing what anything looks like, I do have faith in our negotiating committee, and their abilities. While I can understand why everyone hates the "B" scale, and that you can't bring YOS with you too the left seat, I do believe you need to look at the longer term picture, and the fact that the mobility to the left seat has never been that quick. You will still be light years ahead starting today at Jazz (inflation included) than you would be when I started.

As for making a real difference in the industry, you play the hand you are being dealt. And for anyone who was not around in the industry in the late 90's and around for the merger, or the contract that brought in Rouge, I suggest you do some homework. CR is exceedingly smart, but he will not be taken hostage. If he feels a fair deal has been rejected, he will go to war and be prepared to change everything. He is a long term thinker and I don't believe he is in this to just receive a large paycheck. The only reason Sky Regional exists is because of what happened during our contract negotiations back in 2010. He will burn Jazz to the ground before allowing us to take him hostage again, no matter how much it hurts him today; he thinks long term.

So without knowing what it is, I have a lot of confidence that whatever it is, it is the best they believe they could get.
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rudder
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by rudder » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:41 pm

Kosiw wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:51 am
Hey Rudder !

What are your thoughts on all these developments ???
Predictable (mostly). Express fleet getting smaller/ Express average seat gauge getting larger. Only plot twist was AC equity infusion in to CHR. Solidifies the relationship.

Hope there will be opportunity at Jazz for the GGN pilots. Also interested to see how things will evolve with SKY and an aging E175 fleet. Most logical outcome would be further consolidation in to Jazz Express operation/single AOC/dispatch/etc and continued Express fleet renewal.

There is no reason that Express pilots should accept being pitted against each other.

Interesting times.
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Yieldermatik
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by Yieldermatik » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:03 pm

What does this mean to us in the pool waiting for ground schools? Do we get bumped for ggn pilots coming in without going through the hiring process?
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fish4life
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by fish4life » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:05 pm

Yieldermatik wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:03 pm
What does this mean to us in the pool waiting for ground schools? Do we get bumped for ggn pilots coming in without going through the hiring process?
my guess would be yes, which you can't possibly be mad at considering they are going to be out of work.
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truedude
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by truedude » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:10 pm

Yieldermatik wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:03 pm
What does this mean to us in the pool waiting for ground schools? Do we get bumped for ggn pilots coming in without going through the hiring process?
I don't think so.. The fleet remains the same size for the time being. Ignore the min fleet size for a moment, as we have always been above what the CPA contract states as "min." Those RJ's will be transitioned in, and Air Canada is still taking around 200 pilots from us this year, if not more. We will continue to hire and train.
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KenoraPilot
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by KenoraPilot » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:31 pm

Yieldermatik wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:03 pm
What does this mean to us in the pool waiting for ground schools? Do we get bumped for ggn pilots coming in without going through the hiring process?
Remember the GGN RJ's are going to be "phased" into Jazz by the end of 2019.....a long time to hire, train, transition GGN pilots into Jazz. I wouldn't freak out yet as the TA hasn't even gone out to the pilots to vote on. The MEC hasn't even decided to if they WANT to send this to the pilots. My money is they will and the vote will be done quickly, but don't get stressed out over missing GS's. If you're in the pool you're in a good place, it will take 12mths for GGN to transfer all 12RJ's and during that time there is still plenty of attrition from Jazz to AC and other operators.
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by Outlaw58 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:27 pm

KenoraPilot wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:31 pm
Yieldermatik wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:03 pm
What does this mean to us in the pool waiting for ground schools? Do we get bumped for ggn pilots coming in without going through the hiring process?
Remember the GGN RJ's are going to be "phased" into Jazz by the end of 2019.....a long time to hire, train, transition GGN pilots into Jazz. I wouldn't freak out yet as the TA hasn't even gone out to the pilots to vote on. The MEC hasn't even decided to if they WANT to send this to the pilots. My money is they will and the vote will be done quickly, but don't get stressed out over missing GS's. If you're in the pool you're in a good place, it will take 12mths for GGN to transfer all 12RJ's and during that time there is still plenty of attrition from Jazz to AC and other operators.
No guaranty ALL GGN pilot will want to come over either. Retirement, AC, Transat and Sunwing are all viable career move for them, add a few folks who won't like the flow through package and you're left with only a fraction of the pilots that would grab a GS spot. And as already mentioned above, they wouldn't all flow through at the same time. I wouldn't worry.

58
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Transition9er2
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by Transition9er2 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:40 pm

Thinking out loud....

What does this do to the equipment bid? do they start from scratch and let the entire company bid since it’s a pretty big expansion, or are we all frozen as per the ‘previous’ contract?

- would like to explore getting off the Q out west for a new look on something that’s NOT 6-8 legs a day for min credit!
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Outlaw58
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by Outlaw58 » Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:58 am

Transition9er2 wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:40 pm
Thinking out loud....

What does this do to the equipment bid? do they start from scratch and let the entire company bid since it’s a pretty big expansion, or are we all frozen as per the ‘previous’ contract?

- would like to explore getting off the Q out west for a new look on something that’s NOT 6-8 legs a day for min credit!
Interesting observation.

That might be something to ask for in the ratification vote, ie lifting the equipment freeze until the GGN integration is completed. It would allow for a 1:1 seniority ratio integration without running the risk that folks at Jazz feel cheated by GGN pilots who would fall junior to them at Jazz.

Worth looking into IMHO.

58
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by Inverted2 » Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:45 am

Outlaw58 wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:58 am
Transition9er2 wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:40 pm
Thinking out loud....

What does this do to the equipment bid? do they start from scratch and let the entire company bid since it’s a pretty big expansion, or are we all frozen as per the ‘previous’ contract?

- would like to explore getting off the Q out west for a new look on something that’s NOT 6-8 legs a day for min credit!
Interesting observation.

That might be something to ask for in the ratification vote, ie lifting the equipment freeze until the GGN integration is completed. It would allow for a 1:1 seniority ratio integration without running the risk that folks at Jazz feel cheated by GGN pilots who would fall junior to them at Jazz.

Worth looking into IMHO.

58
I don't think a 1:1 seniority ratio would go over well if a 3 year GGN pilot slides in ahead of a 30 year Jazz pilot. I think date of hire would be the best they could hope for. We'll all find out soon enough.
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by Lightchop » Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:35 am

Inverted2 wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:45 am
Outlaw58 wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:58 am
Transition9er2 wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:40 pm
Thinking out loud....

What does this do to the equipment bid? do they start from scratch and let the entire company bid since it’s a pretty big expansion, or are we all frozen as per the ‘previous’ contract?

- would like to explore getting off the Q out west for a new look on something that’s NOT 6-8 legs a day for min credit!
Interesting observation.

That might be something to ask for in the ratification vote, ie lifting the equipment freeze until the GGN integration is completed. It would allow for a 1:1 seniority ratio integration without running the risk that folks at Jazz feel cheated by GGN pilots who would fall junior to them at Jazz.

Worth looking into IMHO.

58
I don't think a 1:1 seniority ratio would go over well if a 3 year GGN pilot slides in ahead of a 30 year Jazz pilot. I think date of hire would be the best they could hope for. We'll all find out soon enough.
30 years? Lol I'm pretty sure most of not all their pilots are like 2-3 maybe that's even pushing it. Hell, I heard they had a big exodus to Encore recently depending on the deal all those pilots might be kicking themselves.

If the union got me a raise, fixed the pay table and figured something out for AC flow, even if the GGN guys slot in above me and I'm sure a lot will I'll still be ok with that. It's time we start fixing this industry and treat other pilots with respect. No one knows the reason each individual took a job there. You can't blame them for feeding their families and working for scummy management. How many of us have worked for horrible 703 operators in the past for the same reasons?
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Yieldermatik
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by Yieldermatik » Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:40 am

fish4life wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:05 pm
Yieldermatik wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:03 pm
What does this mean to us in the pool waiting for ground schools? Do we get bumped for ggn pilots coming in without going through the hiring process?
my guess would be yes, which you can't possibly be mad at considering they are going to be out of work.
I would not be mad if that happens. My plans and goals are clear and evidently moving forward as planned, but I currently have a flying job I enjoy so if I have to wait a little longer so GGN pilots can get settled instead of being jobless then no problem.
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by Lightchop » Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:41 am

Outlaw58 wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:58 am
Transition9er2 wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:40 pm
Thinking out loud....

What does this do to the equipment bid? do they start from scratch and let the entire company bid since it’s a pretty big expansion, or are we all frozen as per the ‘previous’ contract?

- would like to explore getting off the Q out west for a new look on something that’s NOT 6-8 legs a day for min credit!
Interesting observation.

That might be something to ask for in the ratification vote, ie lifting the equipment freeze until the GGN integration is completed. It would allow for a 1:1 seniority ratio integration without running the risk that folks at Jazz feel cheated by GGN pilots who would fall junior to them at Jazz.

Worth looking into IMHO.

58
I really can't see them keeping their seats on the RJ when they come over. That's a sure way to get a NO vote from at least 100+ pilots. Those need to be made vacant for everyone who lost their job in Toronto on the jet recently. If that's the case there will be such a big shuffle anyways with guys moving back from YVR/YYC/YUL to YYZ. There's at least 20 RJ pilots in YVR/ YYC who will leave back to Toronto.
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by Lightchop » Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:42 am

Yieldermatik wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:40 am
fish4life wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:05 pm
Yieldermatik wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:03 pm
What does this mean to us in the pool waiting for ground schools? Do we get bumped for ggn pilots coming in without going through the hiring process?
my guess would be yes, which you can't possibly be mad at considering they are going to be out of work.
I would not be mad if that happens. My plans and goals are clear and evidently moving forward as planned, but I currently have a flying job I enjoy so if I have to wait a little longer so GGN pilots can get settled instead of being jobless then no problem.
I agree. How would ever jazz pilot want to be treated of it was the other way around.
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by Inverted2 » Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:43 am

I was speaking of Jazz. We have 200+ pilots with 30 years in. I was commenting on the 1 for 1 seniority with GGN. I think most of their pilots have only 1-3 years with the company.
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by Lightchop » Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:46 am

Inverted2 wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:43 am
I was speaking of Jazz. We have 200+ pilots with 30 years in. I was commenting on the 1 for 1 seniority with GGN. I think most of their pilots have only 1-3 years with the company.
So why would they slot in above a 30 year guy? They'd just have their DOH at GGN be their date here. That's what 1:1 means unless you misunderstood. If anything the Sr guys will be least effected by this as it's more RJ Captain jobs and no one going ahead of them.
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by Inverted2 » Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:48 am

Lightchop wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:46 am
Inverted2 wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:43 am
I was speaking of Jazz. We have 200+ pilots with 30 years in. I was commenting on the 1 for 1 seniority with GGN. I think most of their pilots have only 1-3 years with the company.
So why would they slot in above a 30 year guy? They'd just have their DOH at GGN be their date here. That's what 1:1 means unless you misunderstood. If anything the Sr guys will be least effected by this as it's more RJ Captain jobs and no one going ahead of them.
Sorry I was misunderstood. 1:1 means date of hire then. Correct?
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by Lightchop » Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:50 am

Inverted2 wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:48 am
Lightchop wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:46 am
Inverted2 wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:43 am
I was speaking of Jazz. We have 200+ pilots with 30 years in. I was commenting on the 1 for 1 seniority with GGN. I think most of their pilots have only 1-3 years with the company.
So why would they slot in above a 30 year guy? They'd just have their DOH at GGN be their date here. That's what 1:1 means unless you misunderstood. If anything the Sr guys will be least effected by this as it's more RJ Captain jobs and no one going ahead of them.
Sorry I was misunderstood. 1:1 means date of hire then. Correct?
Correct.
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by DH8Pilot » Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:06 pm

Lightchop wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:35 am
If the union got me a raise, fixed the pay table and figured something out for AC flow, even if the GGN guys slot in above me and I'm sure a lot will I'll still be ok with that.
While I highly doubt DOH will be implemented, I don't want to add too much fuel to the rumour mill fire before the amended collective agreement is released. In the meantime, it may be worth considering the negative impact DOH entails on other Jazz pilots. There are plenty of YYZ and YUL DH8 FOs who've been on property for over a year and who are still sitting on reserve. Allowing the GGN pilots to move up ahead based on DOH, likely onto the RJ YYZ, would be a serious disservice to these FOs. They would likely be stuck on reserve for another year at least, given the planned reductions for the DH8 fleet. It's not a fun time sitting on the bottom of a list of a plane being reduced. So while I can understand your willingness to help the GGN pilots, given the worst case for you is to be reduced to the top of the YVR RJ FO list, please recognize there are many who wouldn't be so lucky. If anything, maybe we should negotiate for those on the DH8 to be taken off their equipment freeze, or at least have it reduced to 2yrs vs. 4yrs.
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by Lightchop » Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:12 pm

Yeah worst case I lose $35000+?
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Last edited by Lightchop on Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by DH8Pilot » Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:49 pm

You were awarded left seat at what? The one year mark? There are people hitting the one year mark at this company presently, flying on a comparatively worse plane and schedule, who are simply hoping to hold a block. So I find it extremely hypocritical that you're willing to throw them under the bus, but then be unwilling to give up your left seat for financial reasons, despite how quickly you received it historically. Also, the union is looking out for the interests of all pilots. It's easy for some to fall through the cracks. I'm simply trying to play devil's advocate. There is a small group of pilots who've had a notably worse experience at Jazz than what has become the norm over the past few years, and they would be significantly hurt by allowing DOH without being unfrozen.
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by CFM56 » Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:22 pm

DH8Pilot wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:49 pm
You were awarded left seat at what? The one year mark? There are people hitting the one year mark at this company presently, flying on a comparatively worse plane and schedule, who are simply hoping to hold a block. So I find it extremely hypocritical that you're willing to throw them under the bus, but then be unwilling to give up your left seat for financial reasons, despite how quickly you received it historically. Also, the union is looking out for the interests of all pilots. It's easy for some to fall through the cracks. I'm simply trying to play devil's advocate. There is a small group of pilots who've had a notably worse experience at Jazz than what has become the norm over the past few years, and they would be significantly hurt by allowing DOH without being unfrozen.
I absolutely agree with you on this. I last week was awarded a position I wanted after waiting a year and commuting for nothing but reserve. I finally get the base I want and now am worried I’m going to get bumped before I even hit my effective date and have to commute once again :cry:
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