Things are brewing in the kitchen.

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Lightchop
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by Lightchop » Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:43 pm

DH8Pilot wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:49 pm
You were awarded left seat at what? The one year mark? There are people hitting the one year mark at this company presently, flying on a comparatively worse plane and schedule, who are simply hoping to hold a block. So I find it extremely hypocritical that you're willing to throw them under the bus, but then be unwilling to give up your left seat for financial reasons, despite how quickly you received it historically. Also, the union is looking out for the interests of all pilots. It's easy for some to fall through the cracks. I'm simply trying to play devil's advocate. There is a small group of pilots who've had a notably worse experience at Jazz than what has become the norm over the past few years, and they would be significantly hurt by allowing DOH without being unfrozen.
I don't disagree you're right things have slowed down. Maybe all the potential issues will be solved by a great flow agreement. Sr guys leave, Jr guys upgrade, Jr Jr guys move up the list, next year the next cycle hits. AC is going to be hiring for a while. We'll all find out on Friday.
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rudder
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by rudder » Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:49 pm

Lightchop wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:43 pm

I don't disagree you're right things have slowed down. Maybe all the potential issues will be solved by a great flow agreement. Sr guys leave, Jr guys upgrade, Jr Jr guys move up the list, next year the next cycle hits. AC is going to be hiring for a while. We'll all find out on Friday.
Sr pilots that wanted to leave left between 2015-2017 under the terms of PML 1. Senior pilot attrition now is based on mandatory retirement, early retirement, and med leave.
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Lightchop
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by Lightchop » Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:02 pm

rudder wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:49 pm
Lightchop wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:43 pm

I don't disagree you're right things have slowed down. Maybe all the potential issues will be solved by a great flow agreement. Sr guys leave, Jr guys upgrade, Jr Jr guys move up the list, next year the next cycle hits. AC is going to be hiring for a while. We'll all find out on Friday.
Sr pilots that wanted to leave left between 2015-2017 under the terms of PML 1. Senior pilot attrition now is based on mandatory retirement, early retirement, and med leave.
Ok let me clarify. Sr post 2015 pilots who all want to go to Air Canada. And there are a lot of them.
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speedah
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by speedah » Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:04 pm

It’ll be DOH

alpa will burn the existing boys for a sympathetic reason.

Mark my words.
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by pelmet » Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:26 am

speedah wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:04 pm
It’ll be DOH

Mark my words.
But do you get to keep your present position?
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by goingnowherefast » Wed Jan 16, 2019 5:34 am

Didn't they recently bring in legislation that protects employees during contract flipping?

Depending on how the legislation is worded, I'd imagine pay protection, seniority based on doh, and everybody gets a position they can hold with their seniority.

So worst case for ggn pilots would be bumped into the right seat of another type, and pay protected at ggn captain rate until they upgrade.

I don't see any downsides for Jazz pilots. 12 more planes and coming in with critical short pilot staff. Meaning more opportunities once the planes are crewed properly.

The downside could be if they park other planes (DH8A), but that is another issue that's likely happening regardless. Negative effects could be considered offset by bringing back the CRJs.
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prop2jet
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by prop2jet » Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:24 am

goingnowherefast wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 5:34 am
Didn't they recently bring in legislation that protects employees during contract flipping?

Depending on how the legislation is worded, I'd imagine pay protection, seniority based on doh, and everybody gets a position they can hold with their seniority.

So worst case for ggn pilots would be bumped into the right seat of another type, and pay protected at ggn captain rate until they upgrade.

I don't see any downsides for Jazz pilots. 12 more planes and coming in with critical short pilot staff. Meaning more opportunities once the planes are crewed properly.

The downside could be if they park other planes (DH8A), but that is another issue that's likely happening regardless. Negative effects could be considered offset by bringing back the CRJs.
There is no committed fleet growth going forward at Jazz. If you look at the plan as advertised on the CHR website you will see that next year the minimum number of CRJ 200 is 15. Jazz currently has 10. Factor in elimination of DH8100 and reduction of DH300 and it is shrinking.
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Lightchop
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by Lightchop » Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:49 am

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Last edited by Lightchop on Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

rudder
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by rudder » Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:52 am

prop2jet wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:24 am
goingnowherefast wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 5:34 am
Didn't they recently bring in legislation that protects employees during contract flipping?

Depending on how the legislation is worded, I'd imagine pay protection, seniority based on doh, and everybody gets a position they can hold with their seniority.

So worst case for ggn pilots would be bumped into the right seat of another type, and pay protected at ggn captain rate until they upgrade.

I don't see any downsides for Jazz pilots. 12 more planes and coming in with critical short pilot staff. Meaning more opportunities once the planes are crewed properly.

The downside could be if they park other planes (DH8A), but that is another issue that's likely happening regardless. Negative effects could be considered offset by bringing back the CRJs.
There is no committed fleet growth going forward at Jazz. If you look at the plan as advertised on the CHR website you will see that next year the minimum number of CRJ 200 is 15. Jazz currently has 10. Factor in elimination of DH8100 and reduction of DH300 and it is shrinking.
The Jazz fleet is shrinking as is the overall Express fleet. That is the AC plan: increase Express gauge - reduce Express fleet.

So, less Express aircraft means less Express pilots. First casualty is GGN.

Significant continued attrition rates at Jazz (assuming AC hiring) means that a shrinking fleet will not trigger forced pilot reductions.

With the big announcements for Jazz and GGN, it will be interesting to see where Skyregional fits in the long term AC Express plan.
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by av8ts » Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:03 am

Lightchop wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:46 am
Inverted2 wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:43 am
I was speaking of Jazz. We have 200+ pilots with 30 years in. I was commenting on the 1 for 1 seniority with GGN. I think most of their pilots have only 1-3 years with the company.
So why would they slot in above a 30 year guy? They'd just have their DOH at GGN be their date here. That's what 1:1 means unless you misunderstood. If anything the Sr guys will be least effected by this as it's more RJ Captain jobs and no one going ahead of them.
I thought a 1:1 ratio meant that if you sit at 10% on one list then you sit at 10% on the merged list. Pilots are taken from both lists to sit at the same % on the new list.
Not that I want this to happen. This in not a merger. BOTL
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Lightchop
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by Lightchop » Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:24 am

No 1:1 means 1:1 YOS. AKA you have two years of service there you have two years here.

The system you are referring to is something like "relative seniority.". Which has been done in the past at other airlines.
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DH8Pilot
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by DH8Pilot » Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:59 am

Lightchop wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:49 am
Given the way we already do reductions I can't see how anyone on property will be harmed if it's DOH.
I sincerely hope you're right, but given what I've seen over the past year, I'm still pretty skeptical. Pilots hired onto the YYZ/YUL DH8 January 2018 are still sitting bottom of the list on reserve. Meanwhile, FOs assigned onto the RJ and Q 8 months after them are already holding a block. I can't see how the addition of further RJs and the reduction of DH8s will help. With the gradual loss of more senior FOs on the DH8 to left seat spots, AC, or other companies, corresponding with the reduction in DH8 flying, I feel these junior FOs will perpetually be left at the bottom of the list. DOH will only compound this issue.
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by altiplano » Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:02 am

I'd be shocked if the Jazz MEC signs off on anything beyond BOTL, seniority order for the GGN guys on the date the agreement takes effect. Perhaps they will hold that date until they actually transfer and will be ahead of any Jazz new hires not yet on property.

This isn't a merger. They can't represent or do favours for another group ahead of their own dues paying membership.

Maybe AC/Jazz mgmnt are willing to carry cost for YOS on pay steps or something similar... It would be at a negligible cost considering how junior GGN is in general and be more than made up for by realizing efficiencies, getting rid of GGN and the associated costs.
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by Rowdy » Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:18 am

So, I'm looking at this overall 'plan'. Its indeed smoke and mirrors. 'Hey, you're getting Jets back in YYZ and YUL Woohoo.. oh by the way, it comes at the cost of you taking GGN pilots and losing airframes with a contract so long you're never gonna recover'.

In 2019 we gain 5 CRJ900's from Skywest apparently. Then 12 CRJ200's from GGN (don't they have 14 or 15? so a couple are going bye bye?). We then Lose 15 Dash-8-100's. So we gain only 3 tails. Only to lose them in 2020.

2020 Sees 9 New CRJ900s.. BUT the lease return of 7 CRJ200. Two Q400 leave and Three Dash-8-300 leave. Thats the Loss of 3 tails.

After that we show a loss of another 3 Q400. I'd also imagine the 300 fleet will start slipping away as they go in for potential overhaul.

Theres a 'possibility' of an additional 3-5 CRJ900s.

Yet we're going to absorb some 200 pilots from GGN somehow.

Sounds like a great deal to me :rolleyes:
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by HansDietrich » Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:22 am

I'm convinced that most of the Jazz pilots would never vote on a contract that would have any GGN pilots being "awarded" a higher seniority than they will, nor will the accept them coming to Jazz and expecting to keep their position and aircraft type. I certainly would have vote it down. I couldn't imagine a GGN pilot coming and getting an RJ spot in YYZ and I'd still be stuck on my old machine after years of service. Speaking with some of my buddies at Jazz, they echoed the same feelings. BOTL or no deal.

Then again I've seen crazier things. If AC can offer something Jazz pilots can't refuse (we all know the majority of new guys at Jazz want to go to AC), they'll sign anything.
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by Lightchop » Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:25 am

Rowdy wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:18 am
So, I'm looking at this overall 'plan'. Its indeed smoke and mirrors. 'Hey, you're getting Jets back in YYZ and YUL Woohoo.. oh by the way, it comes at the cost of you taking GGN pilots and losing airframes with a contract so long you're never gonna recover'.

In 2019 we gain 5 CRJ900's from Skywest apparently. Then 12 CRJ200's from GGN (don't they have 14 or 15? so a couple are going bye bye?). We then Lose 15 Dash-8-100's. So we gain only 3 tails. Only to lose them in 2020.

2020 Sees 9 New CRJ900s.. BUT the lease return of 7 CRJ200. Two Q400 leave and Three Dash-8-300 leave. Thats the Loss of 3 tails.

After that we show a loss of another 3 Q400. I'd also imagine the 300 fleet will start slipping away as they go in for potential overhaul.

Theres a 'possibility' of an additional 3-5 CRJ900s.

Yet we're going to absorb some 200 pilots from GGN somehow.

Sounds like a great deal to me :rolleyes:
If you're going to do comparisons then at least compare min fleet to min fleet. What we have right now is more than min fleet. Logic would assume, we will also be above the proposed min fleet on the new deal.
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Last edited by Lightchop on Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by HansDietrich » Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:27 am

Rowdy wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:18 am
Sounds like a great deal to me :rolleyes:
I think Jazz guys care more about their working conditions, benefits,pay, and flow to AC than they care about how many planes they have in their fleet. With the movement going on these years, I doubt anybody is getting laid off. Even with GGN pilots coming on board. The ones that might suffer are those who want to join Jazz, but won't get hired until the 200 or so GGN pilots you mentioned get hired.
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by rudder » Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:54 am

My guess is that somewhere in this deal there will be the opportunity for hundreds of Jazz pilots per year to flow to AC. The resulting Jazz pilot list will comprise over 75% of the Express pilot population. And if AC is willing to maintain the 80% hiring ratio vs OTS then Jazz pilots will fill almost 60% of the AC vacancies (equaling 250-300 Jazz pilots per year for the next 2-3 years).

AC had its fingerprints all over this deal. I am certain that changes to the PMA is part of it.
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by speedah » Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:58 pm

altiplano wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:02 am
I'd be shocked if the Jazz MEC signs off on anything beyond BOTL, seniority order for the GGN guys on the date the agreement takes effect. Perhaps they will hold that date until they actually transfer and will be ahead of any Jazz new hires not yet on property.

This isn't a merger. They can't represent or do favours for another group ahead of their own dues paying membership.

Maybe AC/Jazz mgmnt are willing to carry cost for YOS on pay steps or something similar... It would be at a negligible cost considering how junior GGN is in general and be more than made up for by realizing efficiencies, getting rid of GGN and the associated costs.
Keep in mind last year they approved (without a word of consultation or any information being told to the pilots) seniority numbers for Bearskin and Wasaya pilots at jazz. So they accure seniority while at their original companies, then show up at jazz with many months of seniority. That was quite the bomb.

So I would not be surprised if they came up with some other idiotic idea.
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by Lightchop » Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:08 pm

speedah wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:58 pm
altiplano wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:02 am
I'd be shocked if the Jazz MEC signs off on anything beyond BOTL, seniority order for the GGN guys on the date the agreement takes effect. Perhaps they will hold that date until they actually transfer and will be ahead of any Jazz new hires not yet on property.

This isn't a merger. They can't represent or do favours for another group ahead of their own dues paying membership.

Maybe AC/Jazz mgmnt are willing to carry cost for YOS on pay steps or something similar... It would be at a negligible cost considering how junior GGN is in general and be more than made up for by realizing efficiencies, getting rid of GGN and the associated costs.
Keep in mind last year they approved (without a word of consultation or any information being told to the pilots) seniority numbers for Bearskin and Wasaya pilots at jazz. So they accure seniority while at their original companies, then show up at jazz with many months of seniority. That was quite the bomb.

So I would not be surprised if they came up with some other idiotic idea.
That's because they were being negatively affected by their current employers who held them back from leaving. They are our ALPA brothers and sisters and it was the right thing to do. Again as is giving GGN pilots DOH. I'm sick and tired of seeing infighting in this industry. Having had worked in a few other sectors before aviation I have NEVER seen a group so selfish. This agreement will be a huge step forward in Canadian pilot unity and set a precedent going forward that we are done stepping on each other to get ahead. A united group is a strong group.

Also, want to know how many pilots took advantage of that LOU? I think it's somewhere around 4 or maybe 5 now. Big deal.
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by Lightchop » Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:09 pm

speedah wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:58 pm
altiplano wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:02 am
I'd be shocked if the Jazz MEC signs off on anything beyond BOTL, seniority order for the GGN guys on the date the agreement takes effect. Perhaps they will hold that date until they actually transfer and will be ahead of any Jazz new hires not yet on property.

This isn't a merger. They can't represent or do favours for another group ahead of their own dues paying membership.

Maybe AC/Jazz mgmnt are willing to carry cost for YOS on pay steps or something similar... It would be at a negligible cost considering how junior GGN is in general and be more than made up for by realizing efficiencies, getting rid of GGN and the associated costs.
Keep in mind last year they approved (without a word of consultation or any information being told to the pilots) seniority numbers for Bearskin and Wasaya pilots at jazz. So they accure seniority while at their original companies, then show up at jazz with many months of seniority. That was quite the bomb.

So I would not be surprised if they came up with some other idiotic idea.
Also if you were so against the LOU, write your LEC rep. They were in fact the ones who voted on it. You do realize that there isn't just some group of 4 people at the top making decisions? When you hear reference to "The MEC" that includes all LEC reps from every base. Don't mistake that for the term "MEC Executive" who have little if any power as they don't vote. If you are unhappy with the implementation of an LOU that your elected representative voted on then TELL THEM. Don't just complain on the internet.
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Last edited by Lightchop on Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by Lightchop » Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:11 pm

rudder wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:54 am
My guess is that somewhere in this deal there will be the opportunity for hundreds of Jazz pilots per year to flow to AC. The resulting Jazz pilot list will comprise over 75% of the Express pilot population. And if AC is willing to maintain the 80% hiring ratio vs OTS then Jazz pilots will fill almost 60% of the AC vacancies (equaling 250-300 Jazz pilots per year for the next 2-3 years).

AC had its fingerprints all over this deal. I am certain that changes to the PMA is part of it.
I expect the number to be much higher.
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by Inverted2 » Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:23 pm

Lightchop wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:11 pm
rudder wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:54 am
My guess is that somewhere in this deal there will be the opportunity for hundreds of Jazz pilots per year to flow to AC. The resulting Jazz pilot list will comprise over 75% of the Express pilot population. And if AC is willing to maintain the 80% hiring ratio vs OTS then Jazz pilots will fill almost 60% of the AC vacancies (equaling 250-300 Jazz pilots per year for the next 2-3 years).

AC had its fingerprints all over this deal. I am certain that changes to the PMA is part of it.
I expect the number to be much higher.
Depends if it's a real flow through with some perks like keeping pass DOH or a rehash of the video interview, interview, psych test, computer puzzle test and over reaching medical then a PFO or possible offer and wait for a call out irrespective of your seniority.
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Last edited by Inverted2 on Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by truedude » Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:31 pm

Inverted2 wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:23 pm
Lightchop wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:11 pm
rudder wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:54 am
My guess is that somewhere in this deal there will be the opportunity for hundreds of Jazz pilots per year to flow to AC. The resulting Jazz pilot list will comprise over 75% of the Express pilot population. And if AC is willing to maintain the 80% hiring ratio vs OTS then Jazz pilots will fill almost 60% of the AC vacancies (equaling 250-300 Jazz pilots per year for the next 2-3 years).

AC had its fingerprints all over this deal. I am certain that changes to the PMA is part of it.
I expect the number to be much higher.
Depends if it's a real flow through with some perks like keeping pass DOH a rehash of the video interview, interview, psych test, computer puzzle test and over reaching medical then a PFO or possible offer and wait for a call out of your respective seniority.
I could be wrong, but I don't think it will turn out to be anything more than a guaranteed percentage from Jazz. And it won't really be more than what they are taking now. There will be no flow through DOH for passes, or any sort of pay security. In short, it really isn't much of anything. They will still likely take who they want, when they want, how they want based on whatever criteria they came up with that morning.
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Re: Things are brewing in the kitchen.

Post by speedah » Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:51 am

speedah wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:04 pm
It’ll be DOH

alpa will burn the existing boys for a sympathetic reason.

Mark my words.
Well.. this should be fun.

At least they arent seat protected.
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