17 year TA?

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speedah
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17 year TA?

Post by speedah » Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:27 am

Cue the cheers about getting the beloved “jet” back.

At what cost to the pilots though? A 17 year pilot contract is insane, one of the longest ever signed. I sincerely hope there’s considerable long term gains here. I understand job security is a thing, but continuing to pay your fo’s peanuts for years is not a good trade off. Even captains here could use a pay raise, removing 20+ year pay scales, bottom end pay is undesirable for everyone. A lot could change in 17 years, companies are getting 20% or higher raises, and they sure as hell aren’t locking themselves into a marriage this long. AC is getting an amazing deal here by securing labour for 17 years, through whatever the hell happens to this industry. We are in the middle of the largest pilot shortage in aviation history, we better be signing a hell of a deal. Gains in pay (remove or close the B scale gap do I dare say), pension, years of service, a proper PML, deadheads ? just to name a few.

Of course, it’s another “we got two weeks boys figure it out” deal. 2 weeks to figure out 17 years, a lot of information will certainly be grey, and guaranteed wording will mean something entirely different. But of course we’ll learn that after February 1’st.

But we got the RJ’s right ? Does anything else matter?
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by Lightchop » Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:15 am

Speculation is useless. I'll wait to see what the deal is at the road show instead of getting all worked up now.

If anyone thinks we're getting %20+ raises they're probably crazy. We are not the USA and we are not frontier flying Airbus A320s for $40/hr. And we don't have the same pilot market as the USA. There were a few pilots out west during the elections that seemed to think true inflation was 10+% and we deserve %30 pay raises. I thought they were crazy and still do.

If it is that long of a deal I really don't think the MEC would ok it, or AC risk such a big press release unless a lot if not all of the issues people have been complaining about for years are fixed or at least SIGNIFICANTLY improved. Like the pay table, YOS, J class/DH credit (WJ just got it didn't they?), and for the younger guys who want it a proper flow agreement. Something also to be said about getting rid of the biggest drain on the Canadian industry, GGN which seems to be the case.

If it is a long deal, something to be said about job security in what is normally a very volitile industry. It would take me pretty damn close to retirement.

I'm sure we'll see all the info in the coming days. Until then, I'll just keep doing my job to the best of my ability.
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by Inverted2 » Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:25 am

It's the CPA being extended to 17 years. I don't think we will be seeing a 17 year pilot contract.
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by truedude » Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:28 am

Inverted2 wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:25 am
It's the CPA being extended to 17 years. I don't think we will be seeing a 17 year pilot contract.
The CPA is being extended to 2035, contingent on the pilots ratifying a contract to the same date. So yes, in effect it will be a 17yr pilot contract. That must be making history... for better or worse.
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by Lightchop » Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:31 am

If that is the case it is really a 10 year extension. We're locked in cost neutral until 2025, don't forget. The company has to give us nothing until then unless they choose. So if we were able to get significant gains NOW vs in 6 years I'm not totally against it. Road shows will be interesting that's for sure.
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by truedude » Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:49 am

Lightchop wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:31 am
If that is the case it is really a 10 year extension. We're locked in cost neutral until 2025, don't forget. The company has to give us nothing until then unless they choose. So if we were able to get significant gains NOW vs in 6 years I'm not totally against it. Road shows will be interesting that's for sure.
I don't think you really understand what is happening. It may be a ten year extension of the CPA, but to get it, we need to ratify the contract first. It will be a contract that goes forward as of Feb 1st 2019. We are not locked into the contract when the company comes to us and asks that we open it. So you are right, they don't have to give us anything... just like we don't have to agree to extend the contract into 2035. But we did, and you can sure bet we will be getting something for it.
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Lightchop
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by Lightchop » Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:52 am

truedude wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:49 am
Lightchop wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:31 am
If that is the case it is really a 10 year extension. We're locked in cost neutral until 2025, don't forget. The company has to give us nothing until then unless they choose. So if we were able to get significant gains NOW vs in 6 years I'm not totally against it. Road shows will be interesting that's for sure.
I don't think you really understand what is happening. It may be a ten year extension of the CPA, but to get it, we need to ratify the contract first. It will be a contract that goes forward as of Feb 1st 2019. We are not locked into the contract when the company comes to us and asks that we open it. So you are right, they don't have to give us anything... just like we don't have to agree to extend the contract into 2035. But we did, and you can sure bet we will be getting something for it.
We're on the same page just said it differently. I agree.
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truedude
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by truedude » Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:06 am

Lightchop wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:52 am
truedude wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:49 am
Lightchop wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:31 am
If that is the case it is really a 10 year extension. We're locked in cost neutral until 2025, don't forget. The company has to give us nothing until then unless they choose. So if we were able to get significant gains NOW vs in 6 years I'm not totally against it. Road shows will be interesting that's for sure.
I don't think you really understand what is happening. It may be a ten year extension of the CPA, but to get it, we need to ratify the contract first. It will be a contract that goes forward as of Feb 1st 2019. We are not locked into the contract when the company comes to us and asks that we open it. So you are right, they don't have to give us anything... just like we don't have to agree to extend the contract into 2035. But we did, and you can sure bet we will be getting something for it.
We're on the same page just said it differently. I agree.
Fair enough. I doubt that there will be any huge uplifts or anything radical. But if we are signing a 17 yr deal, I hope it comes with something a little more than just long term stability. And don't get me wrong, I do like the stability, as this will take me with in sight of retirement, and the kids out of the house. But, I do enjoy being sweet talked, and a cherry or two would be nice to see.
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by Lightchop » Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:09 am

truedude wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:06 am
Lightchop wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:52 am
truedude wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:49 am


I don't think you really understand what is happening. It may be a ten year extension of the CPA, but to get it, we need to ratify the contract first. It will be a contract that goes forward as of Feb 1st 2019. We are not locked into the contract when the company comes to us and asks that we open it. So you are right, they don't have to give us anything... just like we don't have to agree to extend the contract into 2035. But we did, and you can sure bet we will be getting something for it.
We're on the same page just said it differently. I agree.
Fair enough. I doubt that there will be any huge uplifts or anything radical. But if we are signing a 17 yr deal, I hope it comes with something a little more than just long term stability. And don't get me wrong, I do like the stability, as this will take me with in sight of retirement, and the kids out of the house. But, I do enjoy being sweet talked, and a cherry or two would be nice to see.
The optimist in me hopes to see one pay table, YOS and a few little things. Even just getting the newer guys back on a 12/17 pay scale vs 15/20.
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prop2jet
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by prop2jet » Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:56 am

I highly doubt there is a TA being proposed that would run 17 years, that would be nothing short of insane and should be reason enough to vote it down.
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by HansDietrich » Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:02 am

It's simple:
1. Dangle a carrot
2. Give them a reason to be thankful
3. Instill a bit of fear
4. Make them sign a contract that will bite them, and future pilots, in the @$$.
5. Have ALPA tell them "If you don't do this... the world will collapse"

Let's hope Jazz pilots learned their lesson from the previous "deal" that was nothing short of fear mongering and catastrophic. The ALPA reps at Jazz were useless, making excuses for their incompetence. It was clear a lot of them were there for their own benefit. I hope things changed there now. It's been a while.
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Last edited by HansDietrich on Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by truedude » Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:48 am

prop2jet wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:56 am
I highly doubt there is a TA being proposed that would run 17 years, that would be nothing short of insane and should be reason enough to vote it down.
I am in the camp that likes to speculate--it is like a kid before Christmas trying to guess what is under the tree.

I think first, we need to appreciate that we are not the United States. We may not have seen a relative pilot shortage like we are seeing in the past 4 decades, but planes continue to be crewed. We are already the highest compensated regional pilots in Canada, and we are simply never going to be in a position to strong arm the company or Air Canada into giving us large raises. That being said, given the stability we are about to give everyone, that is certainly worth something.

This is my best guess:

It will be a 17 year contract with 2% annual pay raises, with a signing bonus upon ratification (a couple thousand).
The "B" scale will remain, along with the lack of YOS carry over to the left seat.
There will be re-openers every couple years, but cost neutral.
The current pension scheme will remain.
The enhanced flow through will provide some sort of pay protection when moving to Air Canada, (The method used could be varied). I also believe it will provide better guarentee's as to when you might get called for an interview, along with a streamlined interview process. No more of this random, we will just take whomever with no regard for how long they have served at Jazz.


I am sure many will be sad, and or annoyed we didn't get more, and stamp their feet about how we "caved." And many will point to the insanity of a 17yr deal because what happens if we are in a position to demand more because of the on going pilot shortage; to this, I say, if it ever becomes like it is in the states, or the states open their boarders to Canadian pilots, all airlines in Canada, contract or not, will be forced to re-evaluate their compensation packages--economics will dictate it.

I hope we find out soon though. And I hope the union abandons this "wait for the road show" nonsense before releasing the information. I strongly dislike this method that our union continuously uses; it feels too much like a dictatorship attempting to control the message.
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by Lightchop » Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:56 am

I agree with most of what you said. With the waiting for the show, I wasn't around in 2015 but in this case I can understand it because of the GGN integration. From my understanding the Jazz MEC is currently bringing the GGN MEC up to speed and that takes a few days. I bet we'll both have road shows at the same time so the information is released to both groups at the same time in detail. Personally I'd rather hear it all at once with the reasoning why the union went certain routes with things than just get the info and speculate.

As for the pay scale I'm still hoping the B scale is gone or at least SIGNIFICANTLY improved. We need to get back on one table if anything for pilot unity in the company. Enough of the two group mentality
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by Rowdy » Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:03 am

The MEC always tries to Sell us on the TA. Ive never been a fan of this approach. How about just list the pros and the cons and let the pilot group decide? And get us the info ASAP. Let the group review it and ask the pertinent questions. The company and the union have been having it out for months. We should get the same amount of time.

truedude... I highly doubt there isn't some pay incentives in there. I know our negotiators would have walked away otherwise.

I'm going to assume marginal improvements for everyone so as to make it palatable for the whole group. Maybe it'll go more like this..

Contract to 2035. Some openers.. but nothing substantial
Slight increase to DC pension.
Amendment to Table 1 pay. they certainly won't eliminate the 'B scale'.. but it'll be better. maybe half way in between the two.
Slight increase for table 2 pilots.
Maybe a 2:1 YOS for Right to left seat.
Improved movement to AC. Perhaps an actual program with some stability, not the current shot in the dark mess.
GGN pilots brought on at DOH
Minor scheduling changes

Hopefully I'm proven wrong. I'm already leaning a certain direction.
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by truedude » Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:13 am

Rowdy wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:03 am
The MEC always tries to Sell us on the TA. Ive never been a fan of this approach. How about just list the pros and the cons and let the pilot group decide? And get us the info ASAP. Let the group review it and ask the pertinent questions. The company and the union have been having it out for months. We should get the same amount of time.

truedude... I highly doubt there isn't some pay incentives in there. I know our negotiators would have walked away otherwise.

I'm going to assume marginal improvements for everyone so as to make it palatable for the whole group. Maybe it'll go more like this..

Contract to 2035. Some openers.. but nothing substantial
Slight increase to DC pension.
Amendment to Table 1 pay. they certainly won't eliminate the 'B scale'.. but it'll be better. maybe half way in between the two.
Slight increase for table 2 pilots.
Maybe a 2:1 YOS for Right to left seat.
Improved movement to AC. Perhaps an actual program with some stability, not the current shot in the dark mess.
GGN pilots brought on at DOH
Minor scheduling changes

Hopefully I'm proven wrong. I'm already leaning a certain direction.
There may be some pay incentives, but it isn't going to be anything earth shattering. I doubt I will be buying a new car. The only time I have ever seen anything that could be considered a decent pay uplift, was in 2010 as an F/O. The rest all sounds okay... It definitely won't be the reinvention of the wheel. I think one of the biggest things that needs to be fixed, is the flow through to Air Canada. Because it is a mess and hard to use as an incentive to come to work at Jazz over Encore or anywhere else. I doubt I will be taking advantage of it, but it would sure solve a lot of the issues with people who have come in the last couple of years.
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by rudder » Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:34 am

truedude wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:48 am

This is my best guess:

It will be a 17 year contract with 2% annual pay raises, with a signing bonus upon ratification (a couple thousand).
The "B" scale will remain, along with the lack of YOS carry over to the left seat.
There will be re-openers every couple years, but cost neutral.
The current pension scheme will remain.
The enhanced flow through will provide some sort of pay protection when moving to Air Canada, (The method used could be varied). I also believe it will provide better guarentee's as to when you might get called for an interview, along with a streamlined interview process. No more of this random, we will just take whomever with no regard for how long they have served at Jazz.
That deal would likely either narrowly fail or narrowly pass. That looks more like a company opening offer in negotiations.
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by rudder » Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:36 am

Rowdy wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:03 am


I'm going to assume marginal improvements for everyone so as to make it palatable for the whole group. Maybe it'll go more like this..

Contract to 2035. Some openers.. but nothing substantial
Slight increase to DC pension.
Amendment to Table 1 pay. they certainly won't eliminate the 'B scale'.. but it'll be better. maybe half way in between the two.
Slight increase for table 2 pilots.
Maybe a 2:1 YOS for Right to left seat.
Improved movement to AC. Perhaps an actual program with some stability, not the current shot in the dark mess.
GGN pilots brought on at DOH
Minor scheduling changes

You are probably more right than wrong. That deal would pass by a healthy majority.
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by truedude » Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:51 am

In the end, I would just like them to give us the information without needing to wait for a roadshow. I am so tired of that format. The Westjet pilots had information and a copy of their contract before the roadshow. We aren't children (though we act like it sometimes). Just give us the information, let us start reviewing it, commenting on it, and then it allows everyone to see what the questions are, misunderstandings, etc. They can then better tailor the road show to deal with the "issues."
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by rudder » Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:56 am

truedude wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:51 am
In the end, I would just like them to give us the information without needing to wait for a roadshow. I am so tired of that format. The Westjet pilots had information and a copy of their contract before the roadshow. We aren't children (though we act like it sometimes). Just give us the information, let us start reviewing it, commenting on it, and then it allows everyone to see what the questions are, misunderstandings, etc. They can then better tailor the road show to deal with the "issues."
ACPA puts out an Executive Summary prior to the roadshow and the actual collective language modifications.

Sounds like a reasonable methodology for ALPA.
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by truedude » Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:58 am

rudder wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:56 am
truedude wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:51 am
In the end, I would just like them to give us the information without needing to wait for a roadshow. I am so tired of that format. The Westjet pilots had information and a copy of their contract before the roadshow. We aren't children (though we act like it sometimes). Just give us the information, let us start reviewing it, commenting on it, and then it allows everyone to see what the questions are, misunderstandings, etc. They can then better tailor the road show to deal with the "issues."
ACPA puts out an Executive Summary prior to the roadshow and the actual collective language modifications.

Sounds like a reasonable methodology for ALPA.
Exactly! It seems like we are the only ones where our MEC hoards the information until the roadshow... Like we are too stupid to understand it without them explaining it to us.
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Re: 17 year TA

Post by rudder » Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:33 pm

truedude wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:58 am
rudder wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:56 am
truedude wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:51 am
In the end, I would just like them to give us the information without needing to wait for a roadshow. I am so tired of that format. The Westjet pilots had information and a copy of their contract before the roadshow. We aren't children (though we act like it sometimes). Just give us the information, let us start reviewing it, commenting on it, and then it allows everyone to see what the questions are, misunderstandings, etc. They can then better tailor the road show to deal with the "issues."
ACPA puts out an Executive Summary prior to the roadshow and the actual collective language modifications.

Sounds like a reasonable methodology for ALPA.
Exactly! It seems like we are the only ones where our MEC hoards the information until the roadshow... Like we are too stupid to understand it without them explaining it to us.
Not sure I wrote it correctly but what I meant was Executive Summary prior to roadshow then collective agreement language modifications to follow either at the roadshow or at least during the ratification voting period.

Pilots should be voting on the actual language, not an agreement in principle.
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by TheSocialChameleon » Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:31 pm

I could barely accept back then signing up for a 3 year cell phone plan. Bell and Rogers will try and convince you to sign up for the long term to "lock in your great deal".
But we know every year there is a chance to negotiate a better term.

Drawing a parallel argument now. If we sign up for 17years with no chance of strike or negotiations and to convince us it's their best deal...haha man they are squeezing our nutz.

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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by RussD » Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:35 pm

TheSocialChameleon wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:31 pm
I could barely accept back then signing up for a 3 year cell phone plan. Bell and Rogers will try and convince you to sign up for the long term to "lock in your great deal".
But we know every year there is a chance to negotiate a better term.

Drawing a parallel argument now. If we sign up for 17years with no chance of strike or negotiations and to convince us it's their best deal...haha man they are squeezing our nutz.

TSCuplift oportunities would hapen before
No chance of negotiations? Really? In 2015 we signed a deal for 11 years, with cost neutral openers to 2026. This is far from a cost neutral package is it really 2026 already? Sorry for the sarcasm but lets be real folks. The MEC of the day said said it was their believe that the fleet guarantee and cost uplift opportunities would occur long before 2026. It's 2019. this agreement is a game changer that has the potential to alter the arc of the express brand in a positive direction. It's the next move, not the last. Long game people.
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by TheSocialChameleon » Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:33 am

Credit only after a 3.5 hr wait. They ran through the books and figured it only affected a small number of people. We should ask for credit after a 2 hour airport reserve.
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by mbav8r » Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:26 am

TheSocialChameleon wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:33 am
Credit only after a 3.5 hr wait. They ran through the books and figured it only affected a small number of people. We should ask for credit after a 2 hour airport reserve.
So, you think the negotiating committee just accepted their first offer?
Currently, no credit for airport reserve, how many pairings have 4+ hour sits?
We also had no credit for DH, so if the result is less DHs, that’s great, same above, less 4 hour sits, great.
Most of the improvements won’t likely do anything for me, it will be great for most of the juniors and hopefully bring us all closer to the same, that and the prospect of not having to start over at GGN 2.0 will have a yes vote from me.
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