17 year TA?

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HansDietrich
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by HansDietrich » Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:34 am

HansDietrich wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:29 am
Kaykay wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:43 pm
800man wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 3:48 pm
The entire airline community in Canada outside of Jazz is watching this vote guys. How do you think you'll be viewed if it passes? You'll be branded with this for years to come. You know you're allowed to say no right? You're born with a spine. Use it, or you're simply a Darwinian case study
It’s cute how you think any of the Jazz pilots care what you think of them.
Yup. This whole charade, on behalf of all pilots, is laughable. You think anyone cares? Pilots eat their young. We're all a bunch of sell outs, whether we fly for Keystone (RIP), Georgian, Westwind, Encore, Jazz, Sunwing,WJ or AC. All it matters is "me" and "now". Very few have the spinal chord and morality to stand for what's right.
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by JohnnyHotRocks » Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:38 am

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proper
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by proper » Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:45 am

Avcanada amazes me....
Jazz has been the whipping boy for decades.... "lowering the bar"... "bottom feeders for allowing B scale".... Here is a chance to give someone over 100 000$/yr after six years.... One pay scale.... Long term security.... Eliminating the awful pay reference (Ggn) every express (Encore included) management use as a counterpoint.... not to mention the HUGE strategic move forward for pilots in Canada...

Yet again, Jazz pilots are the enemy 🙄🙄🙄.

What an industry we have here.

It does however boost my pride in being an Alpa pilot.

Thanks gents for the pick me up.
Have a fantastic Sunday everyone.
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Kaykay
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by Kaykay » Sun Jan 27, 2019 9:21 am

HansDietrich wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:29 am
Kaykay wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:43 pm
800man wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 3:48 pm
The entire airline community in Canada outside of Jazz is watching this vote guys. How do you think you'll be viewed if it passes? You'll be branded with this for years to come. You know you're allowed to say no right? You're born with a spine. Use it, or you're simply a Darwinian case study
It’s cute how you think any of the Jazz pilots care what you think of them.
Yup. This whole charade, on behalf of all pilots, is laughable. You think anyone cares? Pilots eat their young. We're all a bunch of sell outs, whether we fly for Keystone (RIP), Georgian, Westwind, Encore, Jazz, Sunwing,WJ or AC. All it matters is "me" and "now". Very few have the spinal chord and morality to stand for what's right.

I certainly haven't. After all, I worked for shitty pay at 703s and at Jazz. Now I fly an old f*ck with lots of money, that's slowly going senile. At least he pays me well. Every day I look in the mirror and I hate my (pilot) self. I need to quit this industry.
It sucks really. Will it ever end? I guess we will see someday. Pilots are far too good at scapegoating each other.
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Diadem
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by Diadem » Sun Jan 27, 2019 11:39 am

proper wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:45 am
Avcanada amazes me....
Jazz has been the whipping boy for decades.... "lowering the bar"... "bottom feeders for allowing B scale".... Here is a chance to give someone over 100 000$/yr after six years.... One pay scale.... Long term security.... Eliminating the awful pay reference (Ggn) every express (Encore included) management use as a counterpoint.... not to mention the HUGE strategic move forward for pilots in Canada...

Yet again, Jazz pilots are the enemy 🙄🙄🙄.

What an industry we have here.

It does however boost my pride in being an Alpa pilot.

Thanks gents for the pick me up.
Have a fantastic Sunday everyone.
So you think a payscale that doesn't even get back up to where Jazz pilots were before 2015 is a big boost? That $100000 is less than new hires would have gotten over six years if they'd kept the A scale. "We took $100 from you, but we're feeling generous so here's $50 back. In exchange for our graciousness, we expect gratitude and an unprecedented contact length at a time when every other pilot group in the country is pushing for higher wages. You're welcome."
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proper
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by proper » Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:19 pm

Sigh

Well sir, I would challenge you to do better.
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by Diadem » Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:28 pm

proper wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:19 pm
Sigh

Well sir, I would challenge you to do better.
I intend to try, but that requires rejecting a subpar TA first.
In a shitty relationship, is it acceptable to tolerate neglect and abuse out of fear of being alone? Is the correct attitude "Well, I'd rather be with someone who doesn't respect me than risk being single"? Or should you tell your partner to smarter up and start treating you with respect because they need you just as much?
If the only reason you accept staying in a bad relationship is because you're afraid of losing what you've got, then the other party will realize that you'll cave and accept worse conditions. In a couple of years when hiring slows down, why wouldn't Calin think "Boy, those Jazz pilots took a mediocre deal last time because they didn't want to lose the AC work, so maybe it's time to renegotiate..."
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by V1Vr » Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:58 pm

Diadem wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:28 pm
proper wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:19 pm
Sigh

Well sir, I would challenge you to do better.
I intend to try, but that requires rejecting a subpar TA first.
In a shitty relationship, is it acceptable to tolerate neglect and abuse out of fear of being alone? Is the correct attitude "Well, I'd rather be with someone who doesn't respect me than risk being single"? Or should you tell your partner to smarter up and start treating you with respect because they need you just as much?
If the only reason you accept staying in a bad relationship is because you're afraid of losing what you've got, then the other party will realize that you'll cave and accept worse conditions. In a couple of years when hiring slows down, why wouldn't Calin think "Boy, those Jazz pilots took a mediocre deal last time because they didn't want to lose the AC work, so maybe it's time to renegotiate..."
If this is voted down, I'm curious who would be on the new Negotiation Committee since I doubt after all the shit slinging any of those guys are going to hang around.

Mind you I don't think the company would come back anyways so we won't need a negotiations team.
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by Rowdy » Sun Jan 27, 2019 2:23 pm

V1Vr wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:58 pm

If this is voted down, I'm curious who would be on the new Negotiation Committee since I doubt after all the shit slinging any of those guys are going to hang around.

Mind you I don't think the company would come back anyways so we won't need a negotiations team.

It shocks me that you think CHR and AC wouldn't be back at the table trying to move this forward with some more $$ if it failed. They clearly were the ones pushing for this. It wouldn't take much. Maybe just go ten years from today (2029) and bump up the pay a little more (A -scale for everyone). That'd pass in a heartbeat.

I would hope after this that there would be some changes made. This has been far too divisive amongst the group as a whole. I carry no ill will or feelings towards anyone in that group or the MEC and I think a lot of people need to be reminded to remain professional with either outcome. You are right though, I'd imagine with all the shit flinging that a few will not be interested in returning.
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by Diadem » Sun Jan 27, 2019 2:38 pm

V1Vr wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:58 pm
If this is voted down, I'm curious who would be on the new Negotiation Committee since I doubt after all the shit slinging any of those guys are going to hang around.

Mind you I don't think the company would come back anyways so we won't need a negotiations team.
Fear mongering. You have no idea that how AC would respond to a "No" vote. You should be voting based on the merits of the TA, not concerns over whether AC will end their relationship with Jazz; like I said, if they think the pilots are weak-willed, they'll keep taking concessions, because they know the pilots are more scared of losing the contract than working for decent wages. For example, in a few years Calin could offer a 10% cut, and if it's rejected he'll threaten to upgauge a bunch of Jazz routes to mainline aircraft or something. This whole offer is seeing what he can get away with, and how much stomach Jazz pilots have for negotiations.
AC knows reliability and customer service are as valuable as low costs, and they've come to realize that second-rate operators can't meet the standard that Jazz does. They won't risk that to save a few bucks, and possibly end up with the kind of OTP and MX disruptions they've had with GGN by signing a CPA with another unknown entity.
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proper
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by proper » Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:20 pm

It never ceases to amaze me when one person seems to know better than countless industry experts, a generation or experience or a team of lawyers.

I also love it when people ask questions.... Or make cryptic remarks.... When they were all answered by the roadshows and Q & A (assuming you are an Active Jazz pilot).

I would never risk other people's careers on an uninformed hunch. Unless you are one of the few of AC's top brass who actually knows what would happen... Respectfully your opinions are just that... Opinions.

Like #&*holes... Most of the Jazz pilot group's opinions are in perfect colorectal health... But we will find out Feb 1 out how many are different despite a fantastic informational campaign.
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by proper » Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:22 pm

Oh yeah I forgot....
Years ago we were told that Jazz was a Cadillac express airline. You get what you pay for but... Air Canada did not want to pay for extra "fill fins" sitting around. It was about that time the cpa renewal took away those fins and schedule catch-up became much more challenging.
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by av8ts » Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:32 am

TheSocialChameleon wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:55 pm
Alaska Airlines Performance Pay
Seattle Times. "About 21,800 employees nationwide at Alaska Airlines and Horizon Air will share a total of $120 million in annual performance bonuses in their paychecks Friday, an average payout of approximately $5,500, the company said Thursday as it reported 2018 earnings. Employees in Washington state will get $66 million of that total."

Meanwhile AC offer to buy our vote for 17yrs ~ $1300
Haha
Alaska Airlines. Jazz is not an airline. Apples to Oranges
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by 47north » Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:47 am

If anyone thinks there won't be wage re-openers over the life of this TA, look at the recent job postings for PASCO:

Signing Bonus: We are pleased to offer a $10,000 signing bonus for Calgary-Based Direct Entry Captains. This amount is paid to new Captains upon successful completion of their line indoctrination.


Signing Bonus: We are pleased to offer a $5,000 signing bonus for Calgary-Based First Officers. This amount is paid to new First Officers upon successful completion of their line indoctrination
.

This is where it started in the US and resulted in an upward pressure on wages. It has mainly been the companies coming to the pilots with the increases to attract pilots and not the pilots having to trade off other benefits for wages in collective bargaining.

We always seem to follow the US and this will be no different.
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by Diadem » Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:53 am

Why would you just hope that the company comes back to offer more money out of the goodness of their hearts instead of at least trying to get some improvements to the TA and have them in writing?
Also, those bonuses at Pasco aren't part of their wages, so as soon as things slow down they go away. If AC and Jazz management are willing to renegotiate for higher wages, why wouldn't they be just as willing to make cuts? If there's a recession and surplus of pilots in a few years, why wouldn't they threaten to cut Express routes and frequency, threatening layoffs, if the pilots don't make big concessions?
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by 47north » Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:24 am

Diadem wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:53 am
Why would you just hope that the company comes back to offer more money out of the goodness of their hearts instead of at least trying to get some improvements to the TA and have them in writing?
Also, those bonuses at Pasco aren't part of their wages, so as soon as things slow down they go away. If AC and Jazz management are willing to renegotiate for higher wages, why wouldn't they be just as willing to make cuts? If there's a recession and surplus of pilots in a few years, why wouldn't they threaten to cut Express routes and frequency, threatening layoffs, if the pilots don't make big concessions?
It started as bonuses in the US and the the bonuses were rolled into the base compensation.

The fleet is guaranteed in the CPA and TA so they can’t simply cut the fleet. They can draw the hours down to the minimum, but the aircraft numbers are locked in.

It wouldn’t matter what was negotiated now. They can always come back and ask. Doesn’t mean they will get it.
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by V1Vr » Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:41 am

47north wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:24 am
Diadem wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:53 am
Why would you just hope that the company comes back to offer more money out of the goodness of their hearts instead of at least trying to get some improvements to the TA and have them in writing?
Also, those bonuses at Pasco aren't part of their wages, so as soon as things slow down they go away. If AC and Jazz management are willing to renegotiate for higher wages, why wouldn't they be just as willing to make cuts? If there's a recession and surplus of pilots in a few years, why wouldn't they threaten to cut Express routes and frequency, threatening layoffs, if the pilots don't make big concessions?
It started as bonuses in the US and the the bonuses were rolled into the base compensation.

The fleet is guaranteed in the CPA and TA so they can’t simply cut the fleet. They can draw the hours down to the minimum, but the aircraft numbers are locked in.

It wouldn’t matter what was negotiated now. They can always come back and ask. Doesn’t mean they will get it.
There's a reason Jazz doesn't have bonuses. Bonuses help the company only, and can be taken away any time. Better to use that leverage to make improvements to the contract that can't be removed at the companies whim.
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by Diadem » Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:26 pm

47north wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:24 am
The fleet is guaranteed in the CPA and TA so they can’t simply cut the fleet. They can draw the hours down to the minimum, but the aircraft numbers are locked in.
And yet, here we are in the middle of a renegotiation of the TA six years early... The last time AC had financial trouble, they squeezed their own employees, despite existing contracts. If that happens again, all they'll have to do is say they're in financial trouble and they need concessions from Jazz, or they'll have to shut down; they'll know that the Jazz employees will be willing to accept whatever's put in front of them in order to retain the AC flying, since they were so desperate to secure the AC flying back in 2019.
Taking this TA is an indication that Jazz pilots can be scared into accepting any garbage, as long as they have the privilege of working for AC.
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by snowcone » Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:37 pm

Under what conditions will people say enough is enough.

Say this 17 year deal is signed. 3 years from now hiring stops, age 65 is now age 95 and no one moves. Now what?

What if in 3 years Calin comes to Jazz and says sorry, Sky grows unless you take more concessions, times are tight.

This deal could pass, a dictator somewhere in the world does something stupid, and hiring could stop in a few months. Calin gets what he wants, but not Jazz pilot's.
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by 47north » Tue Jan 29, 2019 3:27 pm

snowcone wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:37 pm
Under what conditions will people say enough is enough.

Say this 17 year deal is signed. 3 years from now hiring stops, age 65 is now age 95 and no one moves. Now what?

What if in 3 years Calin comes to Jazz and says sorry, Sky grows unless you take more concessions, times are tight.

This deal could pass, a dictator somewhere in the world does something stupid, and hiring could stop in a few months. Calin gets what he wants, but not Jazz pilot's.
67 maybe, but not older.

With the A220 and regional replacement language in the ACPA contract there might not be a lot of express growth. Meanwhile we have fleet guarantees that Sky doesn’t.

It depends on your perspective. I got what I want which is long term security. Others want to go to AC which gives the certainty there.
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by LtDan » Tue Jan 29, 2019 5:25 pm

snowcone wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:37 pm
Under what conditions will people say enough is enough.

Say this 17 year deal is signed. 3 years from now hiring stops, age 65 is now age 95 and no one moves. Now what?

What if in 3 years Calin comes to Jazz and says sorry, Sky grows unless you take more concessions, times are tight.

This deal could pass, a dictator somewhere in the world does something stupid, and hiring could stop in a few months. Calin gets what he wants, but not Jazz pilot's.
With your logic there snowcone, how will you feel under our current contract if the music stops tomorrow and you are stuck on the FO scale with no YOS carryover for the 10-15 years spent in the right seat, currently planned fleet reductions causing junior captains to slide back to the right seat ahead of you (especially if the fleet goes to MADUG as rouge repatriates flying/acpa protects jobs at mainline), how about losing on an opportunity to make an extra 50-100k in your pocket before 2025 with the status quo...

Id say enough is enough for me.. i've been content with the "b-scale" and made it work for me.. i had the option of SR/GGN and passed on the slightly higher starting wage because I saw value in having a real career here at Jazz or a great fallback if the AC plans fall through.. you don't get that else where (and that now includes Westjet). This 17 year contract is all gravy in my eyes. Stability for 17 years, senior guys know their DB pension stays in check, more fins for us, and "preferred partnership" or whatever you want to call it with AC is added protection in the next downturn.. id be afraid if I was as SR right now seeing what is presented to us. The writing is on the wall elsewhere.. If you don't like this deal when it passes go apply at SR and see how well it works out for you... I'll vote yes to DOH for any of you folks then too :)
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by Rowdy » Tue Jan 29, 2019 5:31 pm

It was stated many times that the A220 and MAX wouldn't be used as regional aircraft, but as supplements to the retirements of the 767's and older A320s.

I bet if this passes, the RRA won't happen. Anyone want to wager an adult beverage on that? We cost AC pennies to operate regionally in comparison to their pilots. Even with the four year flat pay scheme. We're still cheaper. They may up gauge some routes when we simply cant staff them though. Which may be their contingency plan for the apparent pilot shortage.

I'm curious either way to see how this is going to pan out. I'm fairly certain a vote either direction will be used against us.
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by V1Vr » Tue Jan 29, 2019 5:53 pm

Rowdy wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 5:31 pm
It was stated many times that the A220 and MAX wouldn't be used as regional aircraft, but as supplements to the retirements of the 767's and older A320s.

I bet if this passes, the RRA won't happen. Anyone want to wager an adult beverage on that? We cost AC pennies to operate regionally in comparison to their pilots. Even with the four year flat pay scheme. We're still cheaper. They may up gauge some routes when we simply cant staff them though. Which may be their contingency plan for the apparent pilot shortage.

I'm curious either way to see how this is going to pan out. I'm fairly certain a vote either direction will be used against us.
YVR-ORD, DFW, SAN, YZF, YWG, DEN, PHX. YYC-IAH

All routes that I wouldn't even consider "regional" and suspect the A220 may show up on them.
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by 47north » Tue Jan 29, 2019 6:11 pm

Rowdy wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 5:31 pm
It was stated many times that the A220 and MAX wouldn't be used as regional aircraft, but as supplements to the retirements of the 767's and older A320s.

I bet if this passes, the RRA won't happen. Anyone want to wager an adult beverage on that? We cost AC pennies to operate regionally in comparison to their pilots. Even with the four year flat pay scheme. We're still cheaper. They may up gauge some routes when we simply cant staff them though. Which may be their contingency plan for the apparent pilot shortage.

I'm curious either way to see how this is going to pan out. I'm fairly certain a vote either direction will be used against us.
People don't understand the economics of the A220. Cheaper to run than a EMB-190 by far.

http://blueir.investproductions.com/~/m ... update.pdf
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by Rowdy » Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:49 pm

Yes the economics of the 220 are far superior to the 190. Which is a mainline machine and not a regional.

As V1VR demonstrated, we're sort of at a stretch with some of the CRJ routes for whats considered 'regional'. I see the crossover.
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