17 year TA?

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rudder
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by rudder »

The entire AC fleet/commercial strategy is to lower CASM on all routes deploying appropriate gauge/frequency and next gen aircraft with new engine technologies or existing aircraft with densified seating.

That applies from the long haul 400+ seat markets all the way down to the Express 75 seat markets.

So AC will use a combination of Rouge/A220’s/Express next gen 76 seat jets to lower CASM on existing and new routes in the North American market where the max gauge is 145 seats.

Also affecting these fleet deployment decisions will be the commercial choice to offer J class inventory to match demand on a city pair.
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mbav8r
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by mbav8r »

Rowdy wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 5:31 pm
It was stated many times that the A220 and MAX wouldn't be used as regional aircraft, but as supplements to the retirements of the 767's and older A320s.

I bet if this passes, the RRA won't happen. Anyone want to wager an adult beverage on that? We cost AC pennies to operate regionally in comparison to their pilots. Even with the four year flat pay scheme. We're still cheaper. They may up gauge some routes when we simply cant staff them though. Which may be their contingency plan for the apparent pilot shortage.

I'm curious either way to see how this is going to pan out. I'm fairly certain a vote either direction will be used against us.
I’ll take that bet Rowdy, what AC says to pacify groups and actually does are two different things, if language exist in the contract to use those aircraft as RRA, then you bet it will happen, I hope I don’t have to collect as that means we turned this down and have to see what’s behind door number two.
As for us costing pennies, I suggest you do some math, CASM is cost per available seat mile, in case you weren’t aware. I know, I know that was condescending as hell but my point is we are not pennies on the dollar, in fact in some cases we are more expensive.
Just take our wages and divide them by the average seats, when compared to mainline in some instances we are more expensive or right up there, I guarantee our CASM is right there with Rouge. We are already an expensive group and Jazz has to make a little profit, not to mention AC quietly made an announcement about some routes being repatriated, so thinking we could somehow turn this down and get more is quite naive.
All this talk about shortages and they need us, etc, etc. They don’t, they have another airline who could ramp up over the next six years.
Imagine plan b is Calin walks across the street to SR, he says no pilot on property will take a pay cut but here is the contract Jazz pilots turned down, all you have to do is say yes and it’s yours, what do you think they will say? Seriously ponder that, while you decide whether or not to gamble your job away, that’s what it is, a gamble.
As for Chorus, they have diversified the business and I’m sure would be quite happy to lease the airplanes to SR, stock would dip a little but eventually bounce back as they expand that business, Voyageur could expand with whatever airplanes Chorus can’t sell and we all get to start over at the bottom of some list.
Maybe we get to follow the work, maybe a new government repeals the legislation that says this, maybe 2025 we are just recovering from a recession, maybe the “No’s” are right, there is a little more, what’s your risk tolerance at this point in your career?
The other thing is, a deal doesn’t have to happen today, so maybe plan b is status quo until 2025, maybe the landscape is completely different in either direction, maybe a real shortage or maybe not, gains now could be a good thing if things go the other direction.
I don’t understand where this mentality of the economy will keep on trucking without some type of hiccup comes from, that possibility and the fact in 5 years the retirements will slow down again, that should cause one to reevaluate your sense of leverage.
Good luck in two days, I for one am hoping that the no’s are just the vocal minority and they don’t get to find out what plan b is, I like plan a.
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47north
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by 47north »

mbav8r wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:58 am
Rowdy wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 5:31 pm
It was stated many times that the A220 and MAX wouldn't be used as regional aircraft, but as supplements to the retirements of the 767's and older A320s.

I bet if this passes, the RRA won't happen. Anyone want to wager an adult beverage on that? We cost AC pennies to operate regionally in comparison to their pilots. Even with the four year flat pay scheme. We're still cheaper. They may up gauge some routes when we simply cant staff them though. Which may be their contingency plan for the apparent pilot shortage.

I'm curious either way to see how this is going to pan out. I'm fairly certain a vote either direction will be used against us.
I’ll take that bet Rowdy, what AC says to pacify groups and actually does are two different things, if language exist in the contract to use those aircraft as RRA, then you bet it will happen, I hope I don’t have to collect as that means we turned this down and have to see what’s behind door number two.
As for us costing pennies, I suggest you do some math, CASM is cost per available seat mile, in case you weren’t aware. I know, I know that was condescending as hell but my point is we are not pennies on the dollar, in fact in some cases we are more expensive.
Just take our wages and divide them by the average seats, when compared to mainline in some instances we are more expensive or right up there, I guarantee our CASM is right there with Rouge. We are already an expensive group and Jazz has to make a little profit, not to mention AC quietly made an announcement about some routes being repatriated, so thinking we could somehow turn this down and get more is quite naive.
All this talk about shortages and they need us, etc, etc. They don’t, they have another airline who could ramp up over the next six years.
Imagine plan b is Calin walks across the street to SR, he says no pilot on property will take a pay cut but here is the contract Jazz pilots turned down, all you have to do is say yes and it’s yours, what do you think they will say? Seriously ponder that, while you decide whether or not to gamble your job away, that’s what it is, a gamble.
As for Chorus, they have diversified the business and I’m sure would be quite happy to lease the airplanes to SR, stock would dip a little but eventually bounce back as they expand that business, Voyageur could expand with whatever airplanes Chorus can’t sell and we all get to start over at the bottom of some list.
Maybe we get to follow the work, maybe a new government repeals the legislation that says this, maybe 2025 we are just recovering from a recession, maybe the “No’s” are right, there is a little more, what’s your risk tolerance at this point in your career?
The other thing is, a deal doesn’t have to happen today, so maybe plan b is status quo until 2025, maybe the landscape is completely different in either direction, maybe a real shortage or maybe not, gains now could be a good thing if things go the other direction.
I don’t understand where this mentality of the economy will keep on trucking without some type of hiccup comes from, that possibility and the fact in 5 years the retirements will slow down again, that should cause one to reevaluate your sense of leverage.
Good luck in two days, I for one am hoping that the no’s are just the vocal minority and they don’t get to find out what plan b is, I like plan a.
+1
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rudder
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by rudder »

Under the terms of the tentative ammended CPA with AC, CHR will make very little off the AC CPA. The vast majority of the revenue and almost all of the profit will be derived from Chorus Aviation Capital (leasing).

Chorus does not care who they lease to for the Express fleet. All they care is that the portfolio of leased Express aircraft grows.

Leased aircraft also are not represented by unions. Just saying....
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by LtDan »

mbav8r wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:58 am
Rowdy wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 5:31 pm
It was stated many times that the A220 and MAX wouldn't be used as regional aircraft, but as supplements to the retirements of the 767's and older A320s.

I bet if this passes, the RRA won't happen. Anyone want to wager an adult beverage on that? We cost AC pennies to operate regionally in comparison to their pilots. Even with the four year flat pay scheme. We're still cheaper. They may up gauge some routes when we simply cant staff them though. Which may be their contingency plan for the apparent pilot shortage.

I'm curious either way to see how this is going to pan out. I'm fairly certain a vote either direction will be used against us.
I’ll take that bet Rowdy, what AC says to pacify groups and actually does are two different things, if language exist in the contract to use those aircraft as RRA, then you bet it will happen, I hope I don’t have to collect as that means we turned this down and have to see what’s behind door number two.
As for us costing pennies, I suggest you do some math, CASM is cost per available seat mile, in case you weren’t aware. I know, I know that was condescending as hell but my point is we are not pennies on the dollar, in fact in some cases we are more expensive.
Just take our wages and divide them by the average seats, when compared to mainline in some instances we are more expensive or right up there, I guarantee our CASM is right there with Rouge. We are already an expensive group and Jazz has to make a little profit, not to mention AC quietly made an announcement about some routes being repatriated, so thinking we could somehow turn this down and get more is quite naive.
All this talk about shortages and they need us, etc, etc. They don’t, they have another airline who could ramp up over the next six years.
Imagine plan b is Calin walks across the street to SR, he says no pilot on property will take a pay cut but here is the contract Jazz pilots turned down, all you have to do is say yes and it’s yours, what do you think they will say? Seriously ponder that, while you decide whether or not to gamble your job away, that’s what it is, a gamble.
As for Chorus, they have diversified the business and I’m sure would be quite happy to lease the airplanes to SR, stock would dip a little but eventually bounce back as they expand that business, Voyageur could expand with whatever airplanes Chorus can’t sell and we all get to start over at the bottom of some list.
Maybe we get to follow the work, maybe a new government repeals the legislation that says this, maybe 2025 we are just recovering from a recession, maybe the “No’s” are right, there is a little more, what’s your risk tolerance at this point in your career?
The other thing is, a deal doesn’t have to happen today, so maybe plan b is status quo until 2025, maybe the landscape is completely different in either direction, maybe a real shortage or maybe not, gains now could be a good thing if things go the other direction.
I don’t understand where this mentality of the economy will keep on trucking without some type of hiccup comes from, that possibility and the fact in 5 years the retirements will slow down again, that should cause one to reevaluate your sense of leverage.
Good luck in two days, I for one am hoping that the no’s are just the vocal minority and they don’t get to find out what plan b is, I like plan a.
+1
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rudder
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by rudder »

Which pilot groups in Canada have de facto employment guarantees until 2035 notwithstanding a force majeure event?

Air Canada - probably

WestJet - probably

Air Transat - possibly/probably

Sunwing - possibly/probably

CargoJet - possibly

Morningstar - possibly

Porter - possibly

First Air/CDN North - possibly

Bearskin/Calmair - possibly

Jazz - probably *(assuming TA is ratified)

Georgian - no *(unless moving to AC or Jazz)

Skyregional - no


Obviously if a pilot group owns perpetual and exclusive rights to the work it performs in a consistently positively performing segment of the air industry has the least risk. Any pilot group who’s employment is predicated on a term services contract is periodically exposed to employment risk.
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Yycjetdriver
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by Yycjetdriver »

rudder wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 4:03 pm
Which pilot groups in Canada have de facto employment guarantees until 2035 notwithstanding a force majeure event?

Air Canada - probably

WestJet - probably

Air Transat - possibly/probably

Sunwing - possibly/probably

CargoJet - possibly

Morningstar - possibly

Porter - possibly

First Air/CDN North - possibly

Bearskin/Calmair - possibly

Jazz - probably *(assuming TA is ratified)

Georgian - no *(unless moving to AC or Jazz)

Skyregional - no


Obviously if a pilot group owns perpetual and exclusive rights to the work it performs in a consistently positively performing segment of the air industry has the least risk. Any pilot group who’s employment is predicated on a term services contract is periodically exposed to employment risk.
The only guarantees in aviation are, there are no guarantees.
You can’t just make up facts and statements to justify being a sellout.
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V1Vr
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by V1Vr »

Yycjetdriver wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:24 pm
rudder wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 4:03 pm
Which pilot groups in Canada have de facto employment guarantees until 2035 notwithstanding a force majeure event?

Air Canada - probably

WestJet - probably

Air Transat - possibly/probably

Sunwing - possibly/probably

CargoJet - possibly

Morningstar - possibly

Porter - possibly

First Air/CDN North - possibly

Bearskin/Calmair - possibly

Jazz - probably *(assuming TA is ratified)

Georgian - no *(unless moving to AC or Jazz)

Skyregional - no


Obviously if a pilot group owns perpetual and exclusive rights to the work it performs in a consistently positively performing segment of the air industry has the least risk. Any pilot group who’s employment is predicated on a term services contract is periodically exposed to employment risk.
The only guarantees in aviation are, there are no guarantees.
You can’t just make up facts and statements to justify being a sellout.
He's not wrong. All those airlines own their flying. And unless there is a force majeure event or they go bankrupt, they'll all still be around in 2035.

For anyone to think that locking in a contract for a contract carrier until 2035 means you won't have opportunities to make improvements is naive. Jazz is just over 3 years into a locked cost neutral 10 year agreement and look at what is happening.

The second an actual pilot shortage manifests? Opener. Sky Regional maybe coming on board? Opener. Company wants to bypass pay people who are slated to leave for AC? Opener. New type on property (2026??)? Opener. Any time the company needs something, if anyone thinks being locked in is a BAD thing, you need to give your head a shake. What's that company? You want to give new hires raises? Well if we let you do that, we want raises for everyone. Oh what's that, you don't want to? Ok see ya in 15 years, and good luck hiring anyone in the mean time.

Nothing is certain, but just shouting from the rooftops "VOTE NO THIS DEAL IS TERRIBLE" without any alternate ideas is dumb. If you are informed and vote no because you can't get around something in it like the GGN integration or 17 years that's great. It's your right. But to vote no in *hope* there might be more, which I doubt there is .. is also naive.
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by KenoraPilot »

Yycjetdriver wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:24 pm
rudder wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 4:03 pm
Which pilot groups in Canada have de facto employment guarantees until 2035 notwithstanding a force majeure event?

Air Canada - probably

WestJet - probably

Air Transat - possibly/probably

Sunwing - possibly/probably

CargoJet - possibly

Morningstar - possibly

Porter - possibly

First Air/CDN North - possibly

Bearskin/Calmair - possibly

Jazz - probably *(assuming TA is ratified)

Georgian - no *(unless moving to AC or Jazz)

Skyregional - no


Obviously if a pilot group owns perpetual and exclusive rights to the work it performs in a consistently positively performing segment of the air industry has the least risk. Any pilot group who’s employment is predicated on a term services contract is periodically exposed to employment risk.
The only guarantees in aviation are, there are no guarantees.
You can’t just make up facts and statements to justify being a sellout.

I know this TA as got everyone a little wound up, but no need for insults or accusations. Everyone as the right to vote the way their conscious moves them and everyones situation is different. I have an assumption a portion (looking at you yycjetdriver) of the people discussing this don't even work at Jazz.....
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Last edited by KenoraPilot on Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by KenoraPilot »

.
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rudder
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by rudder »

Yycjetdriver wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:24 pm

The only guarantees in aviation are, there are no guarantees.
You can’t just make up facts and statements to justify being a sellout.
Job security is just one factor amongst many in making employment or collective agreement choices. Where it ranks in priority is up to each individual. Some pilots will pick an employer strictly for job security prospects. Others for metal. Others for $$. Others for lifestyle.

But the fact is that the pilots from Worldways, Nationair, Jetsgo, Canada3000, Skyservice, Kelowna Flightcraft, and others did not have it. For some, things worked out better after the closing of their employer. For others, not so much.

The pilots at CDN got lucky as politics forced their company in to a merger rather than a possible appointment at the bankruptcy court. It is looking like a potential good outcome for the Georgian pilots despite working for a questionable employer. The story does not usually have a happy ending.
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by truedude »

rudder wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:36 am
Under the terms of the tentative ammended CPA with AC, CHR will make very little off the AC CPA. The vast majority of the revenue and almost all of the profit will be derived from Chorus Aviation Capital (leasing).

Chorus does not care who they lease to for the Express fleet. All they care is that the portfolio of leased Express aircraft grows.

Leased aircraft also are not represented by unions. Just saying....
Air Canada's equity stake is contingent on Jazz pilots ratifying the TA. I think that is telling. Air Canada does not need to prop up Chorus leasing division, nor does Air Canada require chorus to source aircraft, as is evident.
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flashheart
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by flashheart »

Pilots are the biggest bunch of pussies I’ve seen

Let me get this straight:

- retirements
- world wide airline growth (read about what Boeing has to say about future requirements)
- already on a 10 years contract

To lock into a contract till 2035
- with no raise. Sorry 2% is not a raise. Better hope for minimal inflation!
- new hires making less than B1900 FOs

Man it’s no wonder Canada is an international joke
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by C-GGGQ »

V1Vr wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:47 pm
.

For anyone to think that locking in a contract for a contract carrier until 2035 means you won't have opportunities to make improvements is naive. Jazz is just over 3 years into a locked cost neutral 10 year agreement and look at what is happening.

The second an actual pilot shortage manifests? Opener. Sky Regional maybe coming on board? Opener. Company wants to bypass pay people who are slated to leave for AC? Opener. New type on property (2026??)? Opener. Any time the company needs something, if anyone thinks being locked in is a BAD thing, you need to give your head a shake. What's that company? You want to give new hires raises? Well if we let you do that, we want raises for everyone. Oh what's that, you don't want to? Ok see ya in 15 years, and good luck hiring anyone in the mean time.
If you can just reopen the contract whenever, then it's not job security. The second Air Canada thinks they can do better? Opener. Recession? Opener.
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V1Vr
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by V1Vr »

C-GGGQ wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:48 pm
V1Vr wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:47 pm
.

For anyone to think that locking in a contract for a contract carrier until 2035 means you won't have opportunities to make improvements is naive. Jazz is just over 3 years into a locked cost neutral 10 year agreement and look at what is happening.

The second an actual pilot shortage manifests? Opener. Sky Regional maybe coming on board? Opener. Company wants to bypass pay people who are slated to leave for AC? Opener. New type on property (2026??)? Opener. Any time the company needs something, if anyone thinks being locked in is a BAD thing, you need to give your head a shake. What's that company? You want to give new hires raises? Well if we let you do that, we want raises for everyone. Oh what's that, you don't want to? Ok see ya in 15 years, and good luck hiring anyone in the mean time.
If you can just reopen the contract whenever, then it's not job security. The second Air Canada thinks they can do better? Opener. Recession? Opener.
That's not how it works. The contract is locked unless both parties agree to open for specific reasons. And only specific sections. If they don't agree then you revert to whatever your current agreement is. The 17 years will protect the down side. A recession will not open a contract. A bankruptcy could but that would happen regardless of whatever contract anyone has.
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V1Vr
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by V1Vr »

flashheart wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:41 pm
Pilots are the biggest bunch of pussies I’ve seen

Let me get this straight:

- retirements
- world wide airline growth (read about what Boeing has to say about future requirements)
- already on a 10 years contract

To lock into a contract till 2035
- with no raise. Sorry 2% is not a raise. Better hope for minimal inflation!
- new hires making less than B1900 FOs

Man it’s no wonder Canada is an international joke
No big growth yet and no retirements yet on a large scale. If that does happen there will be plenty of opportunity to make more gains. Anyone who thinks otherwise is close mind and/or just naive.
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Rowdy
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by Rowdy »

You know what would pass in a heartbeat?

Change the terms to this:

CPA/contract to10 years from today. 2029. WITH guaranteed cost openers at 3 year intervals.
Complete removal of the B scale. Only the A scale. No ifs ands or buts. No blended bs.
Direct YOS carryover. Not the farce they have offered. Return the effective dates to our DOH, not upgrade date too.
AC guaranteeing The PML. Not the hokey 'maybe sorta kinda as we need and as our standards may apply' nonsense. Take 50% from Jazz. Guarantee it. No ifs ands or buts, by seniority, give us a guarantee WITH something that'll hold you to it. i.e.; if we don't take x,y,z we'll throw money/aircraft/slaves/infinite netflix subscriptions your way etc.
REMOVE the *asterix pertaining to US CPA flying at present rates. I'm not gonna screw over my US counterparts.
Guarantee GGN is no longer a CPA partner and that AC won't start up another one six months from now.

Bring me that deal, and I'll vote yes. Today. Tomorrow. Whenever.
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flashheart
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by flashheart »

Make more gains AFTER you sign a contract?

Get this man away from his pen!!

Pilot shortage:

Boeing estimates the need for an addtional 790,000 new pilots by 2037. Almost coincided with 2035, hmmm

https://www.forbes.com/sites/marisagarc ... add215492
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V1Vr
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by V1Vr »

flashheart wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:10 pm
Make more gains AFTER you sign a contract?

Get this man away from his pen!!

Pilot shortage:

Boeing estimates the need for an addtional 790,000 new pilots by 2037. Almost coincided with 2035, hmmm

https://www.forbes.com/sites/marisagarc ... add215492
So what, you think when a company can't find pilots they're just gonna shrug their shoulders?

You also realize Jazz is only 3 years into a ten year LOCKED NO STRIKE COST NEUTRAL contract?

Right. You can never make gains when in a locked contract, ever.
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V1Vr
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by V1Vr »

Rowdy wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:07 pm
You know what would pass in a heartbeat?

Change the terms to this:

CPA/contract to10 years from today. 2029. WITH guaranteed cost openers at 3 year intervals.
Complete removal of the B scale. Only the A scale. No ifs ands or buts. No blended bs.
Direct YOS carryover. Not the farce they have offered. Return the effective dates to our DOH, not upgrade date too.
AC guaranteeing The PML. Not the hokey 'maybe sorta kinda as we need and as our standards may apply' nonsense. Take 50% from Jazz. Guarantee it. No ifs ands or buts, by seniority, give us a guarantee WITH something that'll hold you to it. i.e.; if we don't take x,y,z we'll throw money/aircraft/slaves/infinite netflix subscriptions your way etc.
REMOVE the *asterix pertaining to US CPA flying at present rates. I'm not gonna screw over my US counterparts.
Guarantee GGN is no longer a CPA partner and that AC won't start up another one six months from now.

Bring me that deal, and I'll vote yes. Today. Tomorrow. Whenever.
Can I have a Ferrari with that?

Talk about greed and unrealistic expectations.
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V1Vr
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by V1Vr »

Rowdy wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:07 pm
You know what would pass in a heartbeat?

Change the terms to this:

CPA/contract to10 years from today. 2029. WITH guaranteed cost openers at 3 year intervals.
Complete removal of the B scale. Only the A scale. No ifs ands or buts. No blended bs.
Direct YOS carryover. Not the farce they have offered. Return the effective dates to our DOH, not upgrade date too.
AC guaranteeing The PML. Not the hokey 'maybe sorta kinda as we need and as our standards may apply' nonsense. Take 50% from Jazz. Guarantee it. No ifs ands or buts, by seniority, give us a guarantee WITH something that'll hold you to it. i.e.; if we don't take x,y,z we'll throw money/aircraft/slaves/infinite netflix subscriptions your way etc.
REMOVE the *asterix pertaining to US CPA flying at present rates. I'm not gonna screw over my US counterparts.
Guarantee GGN is no longer a CPA partner and that AC won't start up another one six months from now.

Bring me that deal, and I'll vote yes. Today. Tomorrow. Whenever.
How about this. If this fails, you throw your hand up and volunteer for the negotiations committee. See if you can do better. Have fun.

Also FYI all post 2015 CA upgrade dates will be DOH if this passes including yours.
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by Rowdy »

V1Vr wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:17 pm

Can I have a Ferrari with that?

Talk about greed and unrealistic expectations.
Greedy and unrealistic? There are 700 pilots senior to me with that pay/yos/etc. How am I being greedy for wanting what my coworkers have. How am I being greedy and unrealistic when our neighbours to the south are getting that?

Please stop facilitating this ridiculous race to poverty.
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by V1Vr »

Rowdy wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:39 pm
V1Vr wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:17 pm

Can I have a Ferrari with that?

Talk about greed and unrealistic expectations.
Greedy and unrealistic? There are 700 pilots senior to me with that pay/yos/etc. How am I being greedy for wanting what my coworkers have. How am I being greedy and unrealistic when our neighbours to the south are getting that?

Please stop facilitating this ridiculous race to poverty.
Want to take the right seat for 10+ years like many of them did too for that 1:1 YOS? Or stick with the quick sub 2 year left seat you got instead? :roll:

You know what else our neighbors to the south have? An ATPL/1500 rule to fly at an airline. Also take a look at some of those regionals everyone likes to compare hourly rates to and tell me how many of them have 1:1 YOS. While you're at it, take a look at their contracts. Per diem, sick time, medical coverage deductions, pension, working rules etc. and tell me who's really racing to the bottom

In 3 years you'll be on the same pay scale as every pre 2015 pilot. Top out at 17 years and know you have a job in 2026.

Perspective.
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Rowdy
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by Rowdy »

V1Vr wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:18 pm
Also FYI all post 2015 CA upgrade dates will be DOH if this passes including yours.
I have scrutinized the MOS for the last week. Over and over and I cannot for the life of me, see anything even hinting to that.

The YOS 'credit' is for FO to captain, starting at year four. No other credit carried. AND only on the proviso that they hold an ATPL during that time. Which means, not a single one of the college folk hired will get credit for YOS as an FO. They'll either upgrade before it applies or be gone to AC. That also means for me, my year and a half at the company as an FO means zip. I also see nothing pertaining to the date being moved. So, someone hired in november and then upgraded in march, would lose 4 months at the respective yearly hourly rate.

Also, it's not 1;1 YOS. as per your next post.
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V1Vr
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by V1Vr »

Rowdy wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:59 pm
V1Vr wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:18 pm
Also FYI all post 2015 CA upgrade dates will be DOH if this passes including yours.
I have scrutinized the MOS for the last week. Over and over and I cannot for the life of me, see anything even hinting to that.

The YOS 'credit' is for FO to captain, starting at year four. No other credit carried. AND only on the proviso that they hold an ATPL during that time. Which means, not a single one of the college folk hired will get credit for YOS as an FO. They'll either upgrade before it applies or be gone to AC. That also means for me, my year and a half at the company as an FO means zip. I also see nothing pertaining to the date being moved. So, someone hired in november and then upgraded in march, would lose 4 months at the respective yearly hourly rate.

Also, it's not 1;1 YOS. as per your next post.
YOS entry point. YOS will continue to accrue on your date of hire. Maybe if you made it to a road show or watched a road show video/Q and A you might have known that. Not everything is in the MOS, take a look at the documents uploaded to the alpa site. The MOS is written to cover as smuch as possible with as much detail as possible but some things got clarified after the fact and that is one of them. YOS as a Captain will be removed from the contract if this goes through and all current post 2015 Captains will have their YOS adjusted and dates moved accordingly.

Also take a look at some of the new Captains in YVR. Just over two years, and College hire to left seat. Three years should be more than enough for anyone to get an ATPL. It's a non issue. Why should anyone accrue YOS as a Captain if they can't even be a Captain?

If you were a year and a half at the company you'll step to your next YOS CA 6 months early. You are looking at it backwards. No one is going to loose anything. There was one guy who had his CA effective date in the beginning of Feb, and his anniversary date the end of Feb. He'll step now to whatever his next YOS is on his CA effective date and then the next one a few weeks later. 11 months early. How is that bad?

Seriously dude if you dont' know this you have done yourself a disservice by not watching the road shows. Go online and watch. If after you still think no, and want to vote that way then I respect that. But it sounds like you have only been listening to crew room chatter, the FB page and this site. Go make your own decision based on actual facts and Q and A. YUL and YYC are both good videos. I watched them both.
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