17 year TA?

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Oxi
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by Oxi »

If this doesnt pass, Jazz will be in trouble.
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fish4life
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by fish4life »

Oxi wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:10 am
If this doesnt pass, Jazz will be in trouble.
This is the attitude of a beaten down wife, stand up for yourselves.

If you think it is a fair deal vote yes
If you don’t like it vote no

Just don’t vote out of fear because then you play right into managements hand.
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dieselbro
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by dieselbro »

fish4life wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 1:20 am
Oxi wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:10 am
If this doesnt pass, Jazz will be in trouble.
This is the attitude of a beaten down wife, stand up for yourselves.

If you think it is a fair deal vote yes
If you don’t like it vote no

Just don’t vote out of fear because then you play right into managements hand.
:prayer:
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proper
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by proper »

If you are senior and don't like it vote no. Agreed.


If you are junior and don't like it, vote yes and go to AC.
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ragequit
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by ragequit »

proper wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:19 am
If you are junior and don't like it, vote yes and go to AC.
Where they can continue to treat you like shit.

I think this is an effort from AC to "groom" us (while saving money of course). Get us used to accepting shitty deal after shitty deal. Then by the time they hire us we're used to shitty deals, so they can keep feeding them to us while we smile and gulp them down, thinking about how lucky we are to have that maple leaf on our cap.

No thanks, not for me.
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altiplano
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by altiplano »

How many years are there left in the current Collective Agreement?
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prop2jet
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by prop2jet »

There is no rush... we have an existing agreement to 2025. True this deal would provide immediate short term improvement. The B scale is effectively bridged at 6 years... so if the intent is to maintain Jazz as a revolving door portal to AC, then compensation will always be low.

The problem I have with this deal is another 10 years locked in at 2% increase in an economic environment that is showing inflation on the rise and cost of living likely to exceed 2% in the years ahead. The only opportunity to adjust is in 2029. Our MEC Exec response to this argument is dismissive. We should not be tying the length of our CA to the term of the CPA.

The come back response to any objections one might have to this agreement is the subtle fear that Calin R. will send the work elsewhere and on and on...
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groundpilot
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by groundpilot »

proper wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:19 am
If you are senior and don't like it vote no. Agreed.


If you are junior and don't like it, vote yes and go to AC.
Vote no...and still go to AC...

A looming pilot shortage and again the industry is out maneuvering a pilot group.

Air Canada needs pilots - FACT. That FACT is never going to change. Pilots are not a dime a dozen anymore. Stand up for you occupation and say "we are worth more".
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bearitus
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by bearitus »

It never ceases to amaze me how little respect we get for such a highly skilled profession. We need to stick together on this one.
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Canoehead
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by Canoehead »

Uh, why are we on a public forum discussing our own business?

Take the discussion to the Alpa Web board or at the very least the Private Forum on here (if anonymity is important to you).
Naming people on here is not fair, especially if you don't intend to sign your name to it. But even still, not cool.

Most important- go to the Roadshow, Open House, watch the video or talk to your Negots Committee or MEC executive before you make any decision.
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altiplano
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by altiplano »

prop2jet wrote:There is no rush... we have an existing agreement to 2025.
Absolutely.

Anyone scared of Rovinescu won't have to worry about his wrath in 2025 anyway. I don't think he has 6 more years in him as CEO... And other deals will have come and moved on by then.

GGN is cooked, that's a certainty.

Cutting off your nose to spite your face and starting an RJ program at SKY, or not hiring to mainline from Jazz, or not growing the feed you need, because someone finally called BS on fear tactics and a 16 year, sub-inflation contract (who does that? 16 years!) ... that's not going to happen... They'll sharpen their pencil.

Remember the Aimia (aeroplan) deal and Rovinescu, with his bank consortium sharks?
They told the Aimia group in a Bay Street meeting:
"Enough! The offer is $250 million, you have 20 minutes, take it or leave it."

Problem was Aimia are sharks too, and they walked out. And they had no leverage. Their contract with AC was to expire next year and they had what, a deal with Porter or Flair? They would implode.

What did they get? $450 million + a bunch of other little treats. $200million plus premium on the so called final offer... 80% more..

We on the other hand get in the pool with the sharks and get scared, and it isn't always comfortable, our leaders think they're equals, partners with the sharks... but the sharks are only looking out for themselves - not doing you any favours. Lock you down for 17 years... give me a break! 10 was ridiculous enough!

Good luck!
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groundpilot
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by groundpilot »

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Last edited by groundpilot on Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

groundpilot
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by groundpilot »

groundpilot wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:30 pm
altiplano wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:49 am
prop2jet wrote:There is no rush... we have an existing agreement to 2025.
Absolutely.

Anyone scared of Rovinescu won't have to worry about his wrath in 2025 anyway. I don't think he has 6 more years in him as CEO... And other deals will have come and moved on by then.

GGN is cooked, that's a certainty.

Cutting off your nose to spite your face and starting an RJ program at SKY, or not hiring to mainline from Jazz, or not growing the feed you need, because someone finally called BS on fear tactics and a 16 year, sub-inflation contract (who does that? 16 years!) ... that's not going to happen... They'll sharpen their pencil.

Remember the Aimia (aeroplan) deal and Rovinescu, with his bank consortium sharks?
They told the Aimia group in a Bay Street meeting:
"Enough! The offer is $250 million, you have 20 minutes, take it or leave it."

Problem was Aimia are sharks too, and they walked out. And they had no leverage. Their contract with AC was to expire next year and they had what, a deal with Porter or Flair? They would implode.

What did they get? $450 million + a bunch of other little treats. $200million plus premium on the so called final offer... 80% more..

We on the other hand get in the pool with the sharks and get scared, and it isn't always comfortable, our leaders think they're equals, partners with the sharks... but the sharks are only looking out for themselves - not doing you any favours. Lock you down for 17 years... give me a break! 10 was ridiculous enough!

Good luck!
I finally agree with you on something. :goodman:
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Stu Pidasso
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by Stu Pidasso »

I got a call last night from a young Pilot that I did some mentoring with, he has been with Jazz just under a year. I tried to read all I could on this TA, he sent me the gory details. My take (not that you asked, but I have done most jobs within the Pilots Association,) is the guy pulling the strings sits at the head of the table at AC. Anyone who doesn't think he controls Jazz's destiny is gravely mistaken. There is plenty to dislike about this TA, who would have ever guessed Pilots would consider a 17 year Collective Agreement.

Starting pay is embarrassing, however times have changed and the majority of newhires are right out of college. Starting pay for an articling Lawyer, CA (now CPA,) Engineer are not a whole lot better. There is no Pilot shortage at AC or Jazz, SERIOUS experience shortage but that is another story. There is a massive Pilot Shortage at the General Aviation level. I would suspect that if the Big Boss doesn't get his way he will turn to Sky Regional and get even, that is simply my opinion having watched how he handles Labour issues. Jazz has been turned into the AC Farm Team, the career (senior) crowd won't be around much longer and the Junior guys will come to AC. Making the term of the contract academic. The unfortunate side is Jazz will no longer be a career Airline, which is by design keeping the Pilot Labour costs down.


I have no idea why Georgian is the big winner here, someone must have pictures. Terrible little mismanaged POS Airline that no one would miss. Tough decision, my advice is get off the forums and call your MEC, go to road shows and get the facts before you vote. This is a career deciding move.

Cheers
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altiplano
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by altiplano »

groundpilot wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:31 pm
altiplano wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:49 am


Absolutely.

Anyone scared of Rovinescu won't have to worry about his wrath in 2025 anyway. I don't think he has 6 more years in him as CEO... And other deals will have come and moved on by then.

GGN is cooked, that's a certainty.

Cutting off your nose to spite your face and starting an RJ program at SKY, or not hiring to mainline from Jazz, or not growing the feed you need, because someone finally called BS on fear tactics and a 16 year, sub-inflation contract (who does that? 16 years!) ... that's not going to happen... They'll sharpen their pencil.

Remember the Aimia (aeroplan) deal and Rovinescu, with his bank consortium sharks?
They told the Aimia group in a Bay Street meeting:
"Enough! The offer is $250 million, you have 20 minutes, take it or leave it."

Problem was Aimia are sharks too, and they walked out. And they had no leverage. Their contract with AC was to expire next year and they had what, a deal with Porter or Flair? They would implode.

What did they get? $450 million + a bunch of other little treats. $200million plus premium on the so called final offer... 80% more..

We on the other hand get in the pool with the sharks and get scared, and it isn't always comfortable, our leaders think they're equals, partners with the sharks... but the sharks are only looking out for themselves - not doing you any favours. Lock you down for 17 years... give me a break! 10 was ridiculous enough!

Good luck!
I finally agree with you on something. :goodman:
I don't know what other you disagree with, give it time and you'll come around I'm sure!
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TheStig
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by TheStig »

I can see where this deal leaves a bad taste in your mouth. It's a small carrot delivered by someone holding a big stick. Same play book as we've seen for the last 5 years, a bunch of closed door negots with an MEC bound to NDA's who are now going to sell a pilot group on a deal where, at most, they've been able to massage a few items.

Reading through this site and talking with friends the 17 year term is either too long or provides a large measure of stability. For someone looking to make a career at Jazz the end of the CPA would always hang over your head. Airlines are no different, what Air Canada craves is stability. Which almost seems crazy in an industry where so many factors are out of a businesses control; gas prices, geopolitics, interest rates, currency fluctuations, weather, airport authorities, some unknown aircraft design flaw, terrorism to name just a few. What executives can do is keep their own house in order. Air Canada is not about to buy aircraft for a subsidiary with out the assurance of labour stability.

PML 1.0 was designed to reduce the payroll at Jazz, this one seems different. I'd be curious to find out what language is contained in the new TA. AC's Flight Ops management has stated they want to maintain an 80% flow from the connectors with the other 20% open to pilots from the RCAF, and other airlines (WJ,WJe, SW, Transat). Pilots from the connectors are the best fit, they know how the company works, they want to help pilots build prosperous careers within the AC family. From all appearances AC's Flight Ops leadership is being run by Pilots again. With that said, Flt Ops still doesn't run the business and there is no replacement contractual language to prevent any notion of unfairness.

All the best to everyone at Jazz, I hope you get a chance to listen to or attend the presentations and make an informed choice. I know there can be some heated discussions about Tentative Agreements in the flight deck, some things are best left to for the post flight bevies, fly safe in this nasty weather. See you all on the line.
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dh89
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by dh89 »

I would like to remind my fellow peers that you are in as good a position to negotiate for better terms as ever. We in Canada have become the rock bottom of the industry when it comes to compensation. When the AC directors and board decide to eliminate one carrier’s contract and give the fleet to chorus, along with taking a 10% stake in the company, it is obvious that they want the company to growth. Otherwise they wouldnt do it. The whole talk of eliminating jazz is nothing but fear tactics to lock us up to a crap contract for 17 years. Who knows what the cost of living will be during that time. Sure has increased by more than the 2%!
I really hope everyone votes with the thought of not just themselves; as well as those behind them. Not all of us have ambitions of going to mainline. There is a massive pilot shortage and there is no way that another carrier can hire enough pilots to cover our 700+ flights a day. If anything they would have to hire former jazz guys/gals. I also hope we can have the georgian pilots join us without any harm to our seniority while still providing a good workplace for them after working for such an operator.
When we crunch the numbers, pilot wages amount to much less than 1% of an airline’s bill. We need a piece of the pie.
As for the flowthrough for AC, the numbers will be the same as the ratio is already there atm going into air canada.
Just my 2 cents. I hope everyone gets what they want, you’re all worth your weight and skills.
:mrgreen:
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proper
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by proper »

Says the 4 post wonder...
:roll: :roll: :roll:
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blueskiessabove
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by blueskiessabove »

Oxi wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:10 am
If this doesnt pass, Jazz will be in trouble.
Will get more if it's turned down, AC is scared that's why there coming at us with a 17 year contract. Nobody offers that long of a contract if there not worried about pilots. Wait why not lock it in for 17 years! LOL
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proper
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by proper »

Or..... Six years to build up competitors, either way we will see what happens. If the result is No... I think the silence will be deafening for years to come.
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V1Vr
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by V1Vr »

blueskiessabove wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:05 pm
Oxi wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:10 am
If this doesnt pass, Jazz will be in trouble.
Will get more if it's turned down, AC is scared that's why there coming at us with a 17 year contract. Nobody offers that long of a contract if there not worried about pilots. Wait why not lock it in for 17 years! LOL
Doubt it.

Curious, when do you retire? I think I know who you are and if I'm right you stand to lose nothing if this is voted down.
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blueskiessabove
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by blueskiessabove »

V1Vr wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:33 pm
blueskiessabove wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:05 pm
Oxi wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:10 am
If this doesnt pass, Jazz will be in trouble.
Will get more if it's turned down, AC is scared that's why there coming at us with a 17 year contract. Nobody offers that long of a contract if there not worried about pilots. Wait why not lock it in for 17 years! LOL
Doubt it.

Curious, when do you retire? I think I know who you are and if I'm right you stand to lose nothing if this is voted down.
I'm younger one at Jazz but all you kids that think this is good are very naive and in for a rude awaking throughout your career. Old guys wouldn't be on avcanada lol
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blueskiessabove
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by blueskiessabove »

V1Vr wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:33 pm
blueskiessabove wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:05 pm
Oxi wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:10 am
If this doesnt pass, Jazz will be in trouble.
Will get more if it's turned down, AC is scared that's why there coming at us with a 17 year contract. Nobody offers that long of a contract if there not worried about pilots. Wait why not lock it in for 17 years! LOL
Doubt it.

Curious, when do you retire? I think I know who you are and if I'm right you stand to lose nothing if this is voted down.
It's better to be the bigger person but karma will come to play. And I think I know who this new elected LEC is have fun.
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blueskiessabove
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by blueskiessabove »

Just So People Know!

I stand to inform all my fellow pilots who could not attend. I went to multiple MEC Negotiating Committee YUL, YVR meetings to see what was offered. I was open minded thinking people have the best intentions( F.Y.I. I think everyone felt like the negotiating committee was a bunch of snakes). I had a lot of faith in our negotiating committee. I asked all questions concerning all our groups and the same response I got from all the reps was we tried our best (For me this is unacceptable). We pay our dues and these fat asses abuse all our premiums to there benefits to see if they can convince us new hires. I used to believe people cared but now thats lost.
This contract and reading the comments let me know alot of the new hires with there own motives only care for there own benefit and it disgust all of us but im the only one who has the balls to say it so """""""""" all you people that vote yes, you are the reason this industry sucks.
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av8ts
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by av8ts »

Has anyone else started skipping past blueskiesabove crazy rants? Or just me?

Still on the fence, however I’m leaning yes cause the no’s are starting to appear more irrational
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