Deal or No Deal?

Discuss topics relating to Jazz Aviation LP.

Moderators: ahramin, sky's the limit, Sulako, North Shore

Would you rather?

GGN merge with Jazz seniority DOH.
31
27%
GGN arrive at Jazz BOTL.
67
58%
It makes no difference either way.
9
8%
Undecided.
8
7%
 
Total votes: 115

User avatar
TheSocialChameleon
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 74
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2016 2:49 pm

Deal or No Deal?

Post by TheSocialChameleon » Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:45 pm

Do you guys and girls at Jazz feel like we should bargain again for better conditions and bring up our requests during the upcoming roadshow. Or should we let them intimidate us and just take whatever AC and CHR have already agreed to?
---------- ADS -----------
  
Hate me or Like me. Both days I get paid.

nightbird
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 200
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 4:47 pm

Re: Deal or No Deal?

Post by nightbird » Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:22 pm

Who cares about GGN guys... in any case use as a leverage to gain in other areas.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Malfunction
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 37
Joined: Tue May 29, 2018 11:00 am

Re: Deal or No Deal?

Post by Malfunction » Thu Jan 17, 2019 6:24 pm

I vote yes only if they fix the b scale right now. No tricks. Plain and simple
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
TheSocialChameleon
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 74
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2016 2:49 pm

Re: Deal or No Deal?

Post by TheSocialChameleon » Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:21 pm

Malfunction wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 6:24 pm
I vote yes only if they fix the b scale right now. No tricks. Plain and simple
You must also consider the details when they "fix the B scale"
What the company might do is water down the A scale. Take that money and improve the B scale. Calling it a blended scale.

You have to ask yourself. Would you accept that?
I propose a better solution is to make the B scale the same as the A scale. Include YOS pay for everyone upgrading. Instead of just improving the B let's make it one livable professional pilot scale for all. You should never make less than the FA.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Hate me or Like me. Both days I get paid.

Lightchop
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 464
Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 10:03 am

Re: Deal or No Deal?

Post by Lightchop » Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:19 pm

You haven't even seen the fucking thing yet calm down one day to go. Go to bed.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
TheSocialChameleon
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 74
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2016 2:49 pm

Re: Deal or No Deal?

Post by TheSocialChameleon » Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:25 pm

Lightchop wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:19 pm
You haven't even seen the fucking thing yet calm down one day to go. Go to bed.

Your tone in all your posts suggests you need anger management skills. I'd suggest slow breathing exercises. Flying an airplane is only one skillset.

Cheers
---------- ADS -----------
  
Hate me or Like me. Both days I get paid.

User avatar
short bus
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 519
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2005 1:57 am

Re: Deal or No Deal?

Post by short bus » Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:27 pm

And you're the guy that was trying to sell paid mentorships on this site not too long ago. Maybe you should shut up
---------- ADS -----------
  

Lightchop
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 464
Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 10:03 am

Re: Deal or No Deal?

Post by Lightchop » Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:50 pm

.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
TheSocialChameleon
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 74
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2016 2:49 pm

Re: Deal or No Deal?

Post by TheSocialChameleon » Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:23 am

For those still considering letting an outsider get DOH protected at Jazz. This should put it to rest.

If Bearskin or any ALPA carrier goes under. Would you let them come here ahead of you?

Also AC doesn't do DOH when you go over. If an express carrier loses a contract. Do you think the AC pilot group would ever let an express pilot walk in ahead of them? The answer is NO.

So why should Jazz do it?

The most important thing to realise is that a CPA is completely different from Union negotiations.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Hate me or Like me. Both days I get paid.

ragequit
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 19
Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:08 am

Re: Deal or No Deal?

Post by ragequit » Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:42 am

Can anyone tell me why Georgian pilots getting DOH is even being considered?

Is it something that the MEC is volunteering to do to help out our union brothers? Is it something that Chorus wants to do in order to get some experienced pilots? Does Air Canada want it to happen for some reason?

If it's about solidarity, how about some solidarity with the guys at Jazz who stand to have 200+ people jump them in seniority? Seniority that will really matter when it comes to thing like upgrades, flow to AC, and more importantly, layoffs, if the good times don't just keep rolling.

I just don't get why it is even being considered. Is there precedent for this kind of thing outside of a merger?

I feel for the guys at Georgian losing their jobs. I'd be more than happy if they are offered jobs at Jazz. But jumping seniority of pilots already at Jazz is too much if you ask me.
---------- ADS -----------
  

V3-HGX
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:09 am

Re: Deal or No Deal?

Post by V3-HGX » Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:56 pm

I agree. Those that took jobs at GGN should have done so with eyes wide open. A good example is the DECs that have been hired there. There are tradeoffs in everything, and taking that seat carried its risks. I don't want to see anyone out of a job, but I fail to see any reason why they should be given seniority. That would be a big, dangerous gift from the Jazz pilots.
---------- ADS -----------
  

mmm..bacon
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 155
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 7:19 pm

Re: Deal or No Deal?

Post by mmm..bacon » Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:51 pm

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I tend to agree with BOTL. Give the guys/gals pay protection, perhaps, until they are back to where they were, but seniority? I don't think so. What are you going to sayy to the Jazz guy who chose Jazz over GGN, and who's 200+1 in seniority lower when the layoffs come, and takes a layoff over 1 number: "Oops, sorry 'bout that??"
---------- ADS -----------
  
Happiness is V1 at YTH!

User avatar
daedalusx
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 303
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 7:51 am

Re: Deal or No Deal?

Post by daedalusx » Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:10 pm

BOTL with pay protection is the only fair deal. Especially with the ‘blended’ payscale that got published.
---------- ADS -----------
  
In twenty years time when your kids ask how you got into flying you want to be able to say "work and determination" not "I just kept taking money from your grandparents for type ratings until someone was stupid enough to give me a job"

BingBong
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 442
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2005 2:54 pm

Re: Deal or No Deal?

Post by BingBong » Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:37 pm

Take this deal and shove it up the MEC and negot committee's ass. CPA till 2025. Pilot shortage is live and well. 2%....eff off gas prices fluctuate more than that.

The JAZ MEC should be ashamed of even bringing this to a vote.
Vote NO and are all the lot of them
---------- ADS -----------
  

Irony
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:42 pm

Re: Deal or No Deal?

Post by Irony » Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:11 pm

Last I checked we weren't ACPA.

BOTL? A lot of people whined about how Jazz pilots dragged the industry down with the A/B scale. Most of them fly for us now and support throwing GGN pilots under the bus...What hypocrisy.... Now there is a chance to make it right...to bring GGN pilots aboard proudly and what do I see? ACPA all over again.

This isn't the first time pilots have slit each others throats for a number. I for one won't stand by those principles. We are ALL airmen and airwomen and must stand together. The regional narrative has gone on far too long.

Oh and from my understanding...no one would even be affected by the pay guarantees (paid for by Air Canada apparently) as the vaccuum of mainline would MORE than offset a dozen guys a month bidding on vacancies over 4 bases :roll: :roll: :roll:

Get with it and make positive history for a change.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
TheSocialChameleon
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 74
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2016 2:49 pm

Re: Deal or No Deal?

Post by TheSocialChameleon » Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:43 pm

Looks like the vote is swaying heavily in the direction of come into the property but start like a new hire. It's a different company you're joining afterall.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Hate me or Like me. Both days I get paid.

Outlaw58
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 270
Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2014 11:49 pm

Re: Deal or No Deal?

Post by Outlaw58 » Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:46 pm

TheSocialChameleon wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:43 pm
Looks like the vote is swaying heavily in the direction of come into the property but start like a new hire. It's a different company you're joining afterall.
If the vocal minority/silent majority principle applies here, the vote will pass.

58
---------- ADS -----------
  

JoeyBarton
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 108
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2014 6:02 am

Re: Deal or No Deal?

Post by JoeyBarton » Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:55 am

When are you guys voting and when are the results out? Fight the good fight and say no.
---------- ADS -----------
  

blueskiessabove
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:15 am

Re: Deal or No Deal?

Post by blueskiessabove » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:11 pm

To all my fellow aviators out there, think twice about voting yes. If you do you should be ashamed of yourself, this is the reason why the industry is so shitty in Canada and isn't getting better. Stop letting the fear mongering tactics get to you. Jazz isn't going anywhere and will be around for a long time to come. For the people just thinking about them selves to go to AC... think about the next generation behind you. The people that think about them selves shouldn't even be allowed to have a vote, there is a much bigger plot at play and that's how long can AC keep shitting on everyone.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Last edited by blueskiessabove on Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

blueskiessabove
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:15 am

Re: Deal or No Deal?

Post by blueskiessabove » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:25 pm

From a Fellow Aviator

As you work through the process of deciding whether this newly presented tentative agreement (TA) has the necessary components to meet your needs, I will offer some background and suggestions in an attempt to clarify.

While many of you were not here in 2015 when Agreement 3 was brought in, I can assure you there are some striking similarities between the way that deal was imposed on us and what is being attempted this time.

I have been involved in various business ventures over the years, and fortunately I have enjoyed more successes than failures, but continue to learn each time. At times in business you must act quickly to not miss an opportunity, but in doing so proper due diligence is always advisable. Sometimes the best deal you can make is the one you walk away from.

As that advice is applied to the decision you will have to make starting on January 22/19 for this TA, consider this: Why this deal at this time? We just came through a two-year period of a collective agreement opener that the Negotiating Committee chairman openly admitted the Company didn't want to talk to us. As such we ended up with nothing more than an extra pair of pants. Very poor return on investment.

Why is that? The Company didn't need anything. So why all of a sudden now do they want to talk to us? Because they want something. Why as a union would we rush into a deal that doesn't meet all the needs of as many members as possible? That is a question you need to ask the Negotiating Committee and MEC chairman.

It appears from the dozens of pilots I have spoken to over the last couple of days that this TA is woefully inadequate.

This is not the time to blink, it is the time to reflect on where you are, where you see your career going, and considering the pilots who will come after you. It is up to us to leave a strong platform for them to build on in the future. Not considering that has gotten this industry in the peril we face today and will continue to face.

There are a number of factors at play when negotiating a deal: (1) The company must make money. They answer to the shareholders, and when shareholders are not happy, nobody's happy. (2) In order for the company to be successful, they must have the employees buy in to their vision to reward the shareholders.

The arrangement we have is a little more complex as we are dealing with a third party, Air Canada, who will take every opportunity to keep us second guessing whether or not we have a job from one agreement to the next. Or, as in this case, come back early and demand more from us. This has become the common theme. However Jazz/Chorus/AC are only as successful as we make them and, in theory, it should be a copacetic relationship.

It boils down to one thing; we are 1,500 pilots and we have intrinsic value that both Jazz and Air Canada need but will never openly admit to. Together as that group of 1,500 pilots we are powerful—do not underestimate this.

Is it any coincidence Air Canada announces expansion at Rouge taking aim at the regional network just as we head into a vote on a TA? I would offer a suggestion, no. They capitalize on the uncertainty and anxiety at the most opportune times . . . for their self-serving purposes.

Is it any coincidence that the majority of your elected reps are spinning this deal in a manner that makes it look like it meets the needs of our group but at the same time feeding to the uncertainty and anxiety? Again, I offer, no.

It's no secret this MEC has been in a state of disarray for some time. It is difficult to understand who many of them actually represent. Is it the dues-paying membership or the Company? Ask the MEC chairman. I'm in the room with these individuals, and quite honestly it is a very odd dynamic which requires further investigation.

I have attempted to slow this process down to give you the time required to make an informed decision. This MEC will not allow that, and presses forward forcing you to decide the next 17 years of your career over an extremely compressed timeline.

Here are my recommendations: First, let's get the MEC house in order. There are newly elected MEC members who have not all had their voices heard yet. They, while not taking office until March 1, have the most current mandate to reflect the will of the group. Second, reevaluate our position, largely this is known but new minds and new ideas are always welcome. Third, reorganize and retool our committees. Let the new MEC pick who negotiates to get the most current wishes of the membership correct. Then, and only then, I believe we will truly be in a position to get the best deal possible for as many as possible.

This plan in itself will create opportunities which I don't think have been fully considered. Many of the same people have largely been involved for the last three agreements or more and we have ended up with buyer's remorse one too many times. Time to change this.

I understand some of you feel this deal is good enough and want the apparent long-term security. Consider this—when has that actually worked for us? Air Canada, through Chorus/Jazz, continues to come back any time they require a bump in revenue, think 2010, 2015 . . . 2019?

The point is there will never be long-term security despite the optics they (ALPA, Jazz, and Air Canada) try to sell you.

As you may have guessed by now, I did not vote to endorse this deal. Along with two of my MEC colleagues, we chose to question the motives and details behind this TA on your behalf and it has left a feeling of uneasiness.

I leave you with one last thought. Ask a lot of questions, if you aren't satisfied with the answers, ask more questions, then vote in whichever way suits your needs.

Do not let fear or apathy decide this pivotal agreement; the stakes are too high.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Last edited by blueskiessabove on Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

hithere
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 206
Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 8:05 am

Re: Deal or No Deal?

Post by hithere » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:27 pm

This is kind of like a pay it forward type of thing. Do onto others as you’d have done onto you etc. The Jaz MEC is trying to set a standard of respect for fellow Alpa pilots at the Express brand who are(through no fault of their own) aboard a sinking ship. To my fellow Jazz pilots, if Jazz fell on hard times and another Alpa Express carrier extended an offer to take you DOH on their property, wouldn’t that be a godsend for you and your family? And the current offer to Georgian will have very little effect on the current Jazz pilots because of the 1)relatively junior population at Georgian 2)increased fins they bring with them and 3)the better flow through which comes with the deal which will have way more junior guys going directly to AC. The net effect on a given Jazz pilot will be negligible
---------- ADS -----------
  

blueskiessabove
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:15 am

Re: Deal or No Deal?

Post by blueskiessabove » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:35 pm

hithere wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:27 pm
This is kind of like a pay it forward type of thing. Do onto others as you’d have done onto you etc. The Jaz MEC is trying to set a standard of respect for fellow Alpa pilots at the Express brand who are(through no fault of their own) aboard a sinking ship. To my fellow Jazz pilots, if Jazz fell on hard times and another Alpa Express carrier extended an offer to take you DOH on their property, wouldn’t that be a godsend for you and your family? And the current offer to Georgian will have very little effect on the current Jazz pilots because of the 1)relatively junior population at Georgian 2)increased fins they bring with them and 3)the better flow through which comes with the deal which will have way more junior guys going directly to AC. The net effect on a given Jazz pilot will be negligible
Your so wrong in many ways! This contract is gonna set the trend for the future when AC wants to push us around and our MEC has there tail between there legs.
Stop feeding all these new people this crap.
Let's see what they come back with if we say no. Stop going for the first deal!
---------- ADS -----------
  

Outlaw58
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 270
Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2014 11:49 pm

Re: Deal or No Deal?

Post by Outlaw58 » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:36 pm

To all my fellow JAZZ aviators, do yourself a favor and get informed. Talk to your ALPA reps, talk to the negotiating committee, read your CA, read the MOS. Grill both the yes and no camp, ask them what is their vision and strategy past the ratification vote. And when you are happy with the info you got, vote what you feel is right be it yes or no, not what some schmucks hiding on a forum behind 3-4 aliases are telling you to.

All non-Jazz folks with all due respect, keep your uninformed opinion on how the vote should go to yourself.

58
---------- ADS -----------
  
Last edited by Outlaw58 on Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Outlaw58
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 270
Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2014 11:49 pm

Re: Deal or No Deal?

Post by Outlaw58 » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:38 pm

Outlaw58 wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:36 pm
To all my fellow JAZZ aviators, do yourself a favor and get informed. Talk to your ALPA reps, talk to the negotiating committee, read your CA, read the MOS. Grill both the yes and no camp, ask them what is their vision and strategy past the ratification vote. And when you are happy with the info you got, vote what you feel is right be it yes or no, not what some schmucks hiding on a forum behind 3-4 aliases are telling you to.

All non-Jazz folks with all due respect, keep your uninformed opinion on how the vote should go to yourself.

58
PS: I see a lot of posting while I was writing this so sorry for repeating what was said above, which is pretty much what I am saying....get informed.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Last edited by Outlaw58 on Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

hithere
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 206
Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 8:05 am

Re: Deal or No Deal?

Post by hithere » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:49 pm

Hey outlaw what’s your plan when Calin tells you to shove your no vote up your ass and proceeds to wind Jazz down to 2025? What about the 1500 pilots and families that the MEC has to look out for? The MEC does not roll the dice with it’s members’ careers. Maybe if you are financially secure or don’t have so much of you life invested in this company then you don’t give a sh!t either way, but the vast majority of us do care
---------- ADS -----------
  

Post Reply

Return to “Jazz Aviation LP - Air Canada Express”