Deal or No Deal?

Discuss topics relating to Jazz Aviation LP.

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Would you rather?

GGN merge with Jazz seniority DOH.
31
27%
GGN arrive at Jazz BOTL.
67
58%
It makes no difference either way.
9
8%
Undecided.
8
7%
 
Total votes: 115

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LtDan
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Re: Deal or No Deal?

Post by LtDan »

I tried. gave up lol
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snowcone
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Re: Deal or No Deal?

Post by snowcone »

Easiest no decision for me. My vote is in.
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tdp19
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Re: Deal or No Deal?

Post by tdp19 »

LtDan wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:49 am
tdp19 wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 5:40 am
av8ts wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:41 am

They know that the guys with less than 17 years to go in their career will probably vote yes because they want job security until they retire and the majority of the bottom half of the list will want to go to AC.
So your saying it’s a good deal for the majority of Jazz Pilots
Not at all, I’m saying it’s a terrible deal for all pilots including the jazz guys. We are worth more than a 2 percent increase and if this deal passes it will affect all pilots in canada not just jazz. So for the guys that want to come over on pml 3.0 or whatever it will be called, if you vote yes to this garbage contract you will be ruining the working conditions and pay for all future pilots as well as your careers when you come over to AC. Their are a lot of things that need to improve at AC and if this 17 year deal passes it will set the precitent for future negotiations for all companies in Canada.
I wish this 2% nonsense people keep fuming over would just go away.. it would happen if people just invested a little time in reading the MOS and actually calculating the numbers out. the 2% applies to all the side benefits (per diems, shoes, dry cleaning, hotel allowance for TPs, dental, massage, braces, parking, CDN/US per diems, etc. you know the stuff you have to negotiate anyways. the wages themselves vary in the blending back to table two.. so the raw pay is in the 4.5-7.5% for the most part with the max i think i saw about 12.5%. I worked my numbers between now and 2025 (any further would be meaningless in a comparison) in my specific case and see roughly $102,000 increase in my earnings factoring in the associated rise in max ESOP/DC contributions. thats without per diems, and using my annual blocking average without OT. The true earnings will be much higher. How that works out a pretty good deal as a post 2015 captain.. I was also due to be reduced off around this time next year on our current agreement so its another win there that isn't factored on the above calculations. When I weigh the odds of turning down this offer vs renegotiating in 2025 I need an extra 100k on top of this deal to break even plus extra for the risk I took on. I'm not going to see a 100k raise in 2025 as our top end rates already far outpace the rest of the regional industry.. so the lost earnings will continue to compound against me. Jazz is my end game, so Im banking on putting away these early earnings to continue to work in my favour.

Starting to work the pay rates back to where they should be is a first step, but I don't see any meaningful changes taking place until were negotiating as one bargaining unit, and taking in the ggn pilots is the first step in the process. I see the gains now as enough to push the deal through, but will look forward to hopefully extending the same offer to Sky Regional after this deal passes. There are good things coming down the pipe if we can see beyond this crappy year 1 FO pay, and accept that AC will be our customer for 17 years. Hell if you don't think any of this sounds good to you just vote yes and go to Air Canada with the new "flow" lol
[/quote]

i respectfully disagree but I don't have a say as I left Jazz years ago. What do you think AC will do if this deal doesn't pass? Approach Sky regional/GGN with the same deal to grow and fly RJ900? Wind Jazz down until 2025 . No chance either of those things will happen. Jazz has been an integral part of AC success for decades now and they are not going anywhere. Why the big rush to get the deal done? Same tactic last round in 2015 trying to rush the deal through, how did that work out for all the guys/gals post 2015.... Not very good.
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truedude
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Re: Deal or No Deal?

Post by truedude »

tdp19 wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:53 pm
LtDan wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:49 am
tdp19 wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 5:40 am

So your saying it’s a good deal for the majority of Jazz Pilots
Not at all, I’m saying it’s a terrible deal for all pilots including the jazz guys. We are worth more than a 2 percent increase and if this deal passes it will affect all pilots in canada not just jazz. So for the guys that want to come over on pml 3.0 or whatever it will be called, if you vote yes to this garbage contract you will be ruining the working conditions and pay for all future pilots as well as your careers when you come over to AC. Their are a lot of things that need to improve at AC and if this 17 year deal passes it will set the precitent for future negotiations for all companies in Canada.
I wish this 2% nonsense people keep fuming over would just go away.. it would happen if people just invested a little time in reading the MOS and actually calculating the numbers out. the 2% applies to all the side benefits (per diems, shoes, dry cleaning, hotel allowance for TPs, dental, massage, braces, parking, CDN/US per diems, etc. you know the stuff you have to negotiate anyways. the wages themselves vary in the blending back to table two.. so the raw pay is in the 4.5-7.5% for the most part with the max i think i saw about 12.5%. I worked my numbers between now and 2025 (any further would be meaningless in a comparison) in my specific case and see roughly $102,000 increase in my earnings factoring in the associated rise in max ESOP/DC contributions. thats without per diems, and using my annual blocking average without OT. The true earnings will be much higher. How that works out a pretty good deal as a post 2015 captain.. I was also due to be reduced off around this time next year on our current agreement so its another win there that isn't factored on the above calculations. When I weigh the odds of turning down this offer vs renegotiating in 2025 I need an extra 100k on top of this deal to break even plus extra for the risk I took on. I'm not going to see a 100k raise in 2025 as our top end rates already far outpace the rest of the regional industry.. so the lost earnings will continue to compound against me. Jazz is my end game, so Im banking on putting away these early earnings to continue to work in my favour.

Starting to work the pay rates back to where they should be is a first step, but I don't see any meaningful changes taking place until were negotiating as one bargaining unit, and taking in the ggn pilots is the first step in the process. I see the gains now as enough to push the deal through, but will look forward to hopefully extending the same offer to Sky Regional after this deal passes. There are good things coming down the pipe if we can see beyond this crappy year 1 FO pay, and accept that AC will be our customer for 17 years. Hell if you don't think any of this sounds good to you just vote yes and go to Air Canada with the new "flow" lol
i respectfully disagree but I don't have a say as I left Jazz years ago. What do you think AC will do if this deal doesn't pass? Approach Sky regional/GGN with the same deal to grow and fly RJ900? Wind Jazz down until 2025 . No chance either of those things will happen. Jazz has been an integral part of AC success for decades now and they are not going anywhere. Why the big rush to get the deal done? Same tactic last round in 2015 trying to rush the deal through, how did that work out for all the guys/gals post 2015.... Not very good.
[/quote]

The seventeen years should be enough to scare the crap out of people. Let alone everything else. Everything about this is just flat wrong. No one has given me even the slightest bit of insight as to why Air Canada is putting up a hundred million as an investment into Chorus. That alone should be raising eyebrows. There is no way they would put that money into Sky or GGN. The fact that they want this done by Feb 1st should be raising eyebrows and I can't but help it has something to do with Air Canada publishing their Q4 results on the 15th. Seventeen years is such a long ways away that no on can even begin to conceive of that time length. Seventeen years ago the F/O i was flying with was in Kindergarten.

Air Canada and Calin is after something and I am increasingly feeling like he has come to rob our house and we are helping him load our shit in his car.
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mbav8r
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Re: Deal or No Deal?

Post by mbav8r »

Air Canada and Calin is after something and I am increasingly feeling like he has come to rob our house and we are helping him load our shit in his car.
That’s pretty funny, you know all our shit is on loan from AC, we don’t own shit. Contract flying needs a contract and before Calin is going to invest in our future he wants assurances that we won’t hold him hostage again, hence the contract length is the same as the contract of the pilots.
If there was a shortage of pilots, like elsewhere, the pay would go up. if pilots in Canada don’t want to work for the crap pay, they have options right, maybe they could go somewhere they are paid what they feel they're worth.
If Jazz wasn’t able to hire in the neighbourhood of 1200 new pilots over the last three years, I’d be more inclined to see what’s behind door number two. That’s right 1200ish new pilots came to Jazz, where’s the shortage?
500 new commercial licenses a year and we need approximately half of them, pretty sure they’ll have no problem filling the grounds schools, until that changes, voting this deal down is like placing your career on black and hoping it lands, odds are likely the same.
Yes vote today, let the chips fall where they may.
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TheSocialChameleon
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Re: Deal or No Deal?

Post by TheSocialChameleon »

Alaska Airlines Performance Pay
Seattle Times. "About 21,800 employees nationwide at Alaska Airlines and Horizon Air will share a total of $120 million in annual performance bonuses in their paychecks Friday, an average payout of approximately $5,500, the company said Thursday as it reported 2018 earnings. Employees in Washington state will get $66 million of that total."

Meanwhile AC offer to buy our vote for 17yrs ~ $1300
Haha
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proper
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Re: Deal or No Deal?

Post by proper »

Alaska, 298 aircraft including Horizon...all one corporation. Jazz currently 116...
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Yycjetdriver
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Re: Deal or No Deal?

Post by Yycjetdriver »

(Calin and other AC/Jazz exec’s sitting around having beers)

Calin: “We will offer those dumb jazz pilots wages slightly higher than they make now, but less than pre 2015 wages. Not only that we will offer those wages on a 17 year contract.”

Another exec: “you realize theoretically 16 years from now they will be working for compensation packages less than they would have been earning like 25 years earlier?”

Calin” yup, hahahahahahahahhahahaa”

All the other AC execs: “hahahahhahahahahahahahahahaha”
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47north
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Re: Deal or No Deal?

Post by 47north »

Yycjetdriver wrote: Fri Jan 25, 2019 1:36 pm (Calin and other AC/Jazz exec’s sitting around having beers)

Calin: “We will offer those dumb jazz pilots wages slightly higher than they make now, but less than pre 2015 wages. Not only that we will offer those wages on a 17 year contract.”

Another exec: “you realize theoretically 16 years from now they will be working for compensation packages less than they would have been earning like 25 years earlier?”

Calin” yup, hahahahahahahahhahahaa”

All the other AC execs: “hahahahhahahahahahahahahahaha”
Or alternatively.

Calin: “I can’t believe they turned down the opportunity to consolidate the flying. Where is Russ Payton’s #?”

Another executive In Flight Ops: “Stupid idiots. Oh well draft a memo to HR - take Encore,WestJet,Sky, Georgian, CMA, PAL, Calm Air, Bearskin, Wasaya, First Air, Canadian North, anyone ahead of Jazz pilots. If they want to turn this opportunity down then f*** them.
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Yycjetdriver
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Re: Deal or No Deal?

Post by Yycjetdriver »

47north wrote: Fri Jan 25, 2019 2:46 pm
Yycjetdriver wrote: Fri Jan 25, 2019 1:36 pm (Calin and other AC/Jazz exec’s sitting around having beers)

Calin: “We will offer those dumb jazz pilots wages slightly higher than they make now, but less than pre 2015 wages. Not only that we will offer those wages on a 17 year contract.”

Another exec: “you realize theoretically 16 years from now they will be working for compensation packages less than they would have been earning like 25 years earlier?”

Calin” yup, hahahahahahahahhahahaa”

All the other AC execs: “hahahahhahahahahahahahahahaha”
Or alternatively.

Calin: “I can’t believe they turned down the opportunity to consolidate the flying. Where is Russ Payton’s #?”

Another executive In Flight Ops: “Stupid idiots. Oh well draft a memo to HR - take Encore,WestJet,Sky, Georgian, CMA, PAL, Calm Air, Bearskin, Wasaya, First Air, Canadian North, anyone ahead of Jazz pilots. If they want to turn this opportunity down then f*** them.
Well if that’s the case, jazz pilots should vote no in order to negotiate a 50 year contract with even lower wages. Because AC is doing them such a huuuuge favour. They should be so lucky as to fly a regional aircraft with the AC brand on it.
It’s super easy to find 1200+ experienced pilots capable of doing a good job, there basically on every street corner in Canada, Jazz pilots should for sure whore themselves out to ensure they have the privilege of working for unacceptable wages. (Sarcasm)
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47north
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Re: Deal or No Deal?

Post by 47north »

Yycjetdriver wrote: Fri Jan 25, 2019 2:55 pm
Well if that’s the case, jazz pilots should vote no in order to negotiate a 50 year contract with even lower wages. Because AC is doing them such a huuuuge favour. They should be so lucky as to fly a regional aircraft with the AC brand on it.
It’s super easy to find 1200+ experienced pilots capable of doing a good job, there basically on every street corner in Canada, Jazz pilots should for sure whore themselves out to ensure they have the privilege of working for unacceptable wages. (Sarcasm)
You are way underestimating the ability of AC to crew their aircraft. All they have to do is drop the requirements. Under the CARs all that is needed is a commercial multi IFR. They have hired with pilots with 250-300 hours before and they can do it again.

Also the fact they would have six years to devise a plan to consolidate the regional flying elsewhere. Meanwhile Jazz shrinks as they move to the mimimun guaranteed hours, crews sit around on reserve at the min guarantee scratching their heads and wondering what the hell happened.
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TheSocialChameleon
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Re: Deal or No Deal?

Post by TheSocialChameleon »

I voted YES in the end. Still not happy about the GGN DOH but ohh well. Everything else about the contract is kosher to me.
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