Think carefully before you make your next move

Discuss topics relating to Jazz Aviation LP.

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Lightchop
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Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by Lightchop » Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:55 pm

AC just announced today the repatriation of a lot of Express routes. With this agreement we would be securing work for seventeen years. At the same time AC has shown their willingness to take flying back. With the addition of the C-Series I think it's a very possible chance if we don't do this deal we will lose many more routes over the next 6 years.

Any other industry that is as volitile as ours they would be thrilled to have security for this long. Jazz does not own their flying, we are a contract carrier living off the whim of Air Canada's moods.

AC has committed to hire no less than 60% of their pilots from Jazz. In seniority. This should kick start the upgrade boom we saw in 2016/2017 as the majority of the first to leave this year will be post 2015 Captains. Even if someone has GGN pilots slot in above them, they should see the upgrade cycle moving again and the perceived disadvantage of DOH for GGN should be negated. This deal is what may actually give them the coveted left seat sooner.

GGN pilots should be transitioning to Jazz over a year, at the same time AC will be taking minimum 60% of their pilots from Jazz, so I don't imagine many people will be affected. AC claims to need between 600-800 pilots this year. If this deal happens that will be approx 360-480 pilots that are all but guaranteed a job at Air Canada this year.

If everyone is so firm in the belief that there is an upcoming pilot shortage, that will be even better for Jazz Pilots. AC being forced to take 60% of their pilots from Jazz, will mean if there is a shortage, Jazz will have no choice but to come back to the table and bargain again. Not to mention there is an opener in 2029 for pay and pension increases.

They mention a blended table. I hope it's close to or meets the former "A scale."

Who gets 2% garantee on not just wages but all expenses, benefits etc every year for 17 years? Postal Workers went on strike over 0.9%.

If this integration goes smoothly you know the next logical step would be to try to fold Sky into Jazz. Bringing over a new type and more pilots would cause the contract to open again. We can then take even more steps up to increase the pay and conditions at Jazz and remove the final competitor in Express.

You can tell how I'm probably going to vote. I honestly hope everyone on this forum who is at Jazz seriously considers all the options and to come to their own conclusions. Ignore the rhetoric on the line. Read the TA, ask questions to your Negotiation Committee and MEC. Do the research and make an informed decision. If at the end if the day you vote no, but made an informed decision that's all anyone can ask for.

Is there a chance that if we say no they will give us all the flying anyways and GGN will close or GGN fails at doing it and it comes here anyways? Sure. I won't deny that but it's a total risk vs reward scenario and I'm not willing to take the risk with the rest of my career.
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Last edited by Lightchop on Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:35 pm, edited 3 times in total.

qair
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by qair » Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:26 pm

is this a joke post? you are clearly a bit disilusioned. almost everyone ivv talked to is a no vote. For many reasons stated in other posts. This is a repeat of 2015. you are blind if you do not see it. Making long long paragraphs with a few numbers that are true and ignoring a massive amounts of problems with the terms given is insane.

NO
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truedude
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by truedude » Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:50 pm

Lightchop wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:55 pm
Jazz pilots need to be very clear about what the future holds. AC just announced today the repatriation of a lot of Express routes. With this agreement we would be securing work for SEVENTEEN years. At the same time AC has shown their willingness to take flying back. With the addition of the C-Series I think it's a very possible chance if we don't do this deal we will lose many more routes over the next 6 years.

Any other industry that is as volitile as ours they would be THRILLED to have security for this long. Jazz does not own their flying, we are a contract carrier living off the whim of Air Canada's moods.

On top of all that, AC has committed to hire no less than 60% of their pilots from Jazz. In Jazz seniority. This will kick start the upgrade boom we saw in 2016/2017 as the majority of the first to leave this year will be post 2015 Captains. Anyone who may have a GGN pilot slot in above them will see great benefit to get the upgrade cycle moving again and the perceived disadvantage of DOH for GGN will be all but negated. This deal is what may actually give them the coveted left seat sooner.

Given I understand the transition of GGN pilots to Jazz will happen over a year (as per the GGN memo), all the while AC will be taking 60% of their pilots from Jazz I don't imagine many people will be affected. Pay and layoff protection, kick start the upgrade train and secure hiring commitments from AC? Let's do the math
AC claims to need between 600-800 pilots this year.
If this deal happens that will be approx 360-480 pilots that are all but guaranteed a job at Air Canada THIS YEAR. Sounds good to me.

Additionally if everyone is so firm in the belief that there is an upcoming pilot shortage that will be even better for Jazz Pilots. AC being forced to take 60% of their pilots from Jazz, will mean if there is a shortage Jazz will have no choice but to come back to the table and bargain again. Not to mention there is a FULL OPENER in 2029 for pay and pension increases.

Anyone remember that we're only 3 years in to a 10 year cost neutral agreement with the potential for large gains in our collective agreement? I don't believe we will go longer than 5+- years before the company comes back with another ask and must open negotiations again.

They mention a blended table. If it is close to or meets the former "A scale" then sign me up!

Who gets 2% garantee on not just wages but all expenses, benefits etc every year for 17 years?

Postal Workers went on strike over 0.9%!

Westjet just got a mediocre contact WITH threat of strike? They got their ass handed to them by the arbitrator. Goes to show how much value the threat of strike is these days. An actual strike will never happen, we will just be legislated back to work.

And more, if this integration goes smoothly you KNOW the next step would be to try to fold Sky into Jazz. Bringing over a new type would cause an opener in the contract again, due to pay for said new type and the integration of Sky pilots. We can then take even more steps up to increase the pay and conditions at Jazz. Not to mention removing the final competitor in Express which will in turn mean more job security and bargaining ability in the future.

You can tell how I'm going to vote. I honestly hope everyone on this forum who is at Jazz seriously considers all the options and to come to their own conclusions. Ignore the rhetoric on the line. Read the TA, ask questions to your Negotiation Committee and MEC. Do the research and make an informed decision..

Is there a chance that if we say no they will give us all the flying anyways and GGN will close or GGN fails at doing it and it comes here anyways? Sure. I won't deny that but it's a total risk vs reward scenario and I'm not willing to take the risk with the rest of my career.

-Chop out.
We are not postal workers... The world is not short of people who can carry bags and walk. I respect your position, and where you are in your career. But you have already let your position be known; you hope to be at Air Canada, and see these terms as your path to get there. I don't blame you for this, and wish it all works out for you regardless of how this plays out. This is not long term security. There is no such thing in life or in this industry. Air Canada will be forced to take 60% from Jazz regardless of whether we accept this TA or not. You say do the research, I recommend you do the same. Air Canada will need 400 - 600 Airline rated pilots this year. Look around and tell me where those 600 pilots are that actively want to leave the job they are in. They will need close to 200 at least the year after, likely more because they will fall short. They want seventeen years from us because they know the market is changing--and years of putting downward pressure on our profession has turned around an bit them hard in the ass.

I know what I am worth. I am no longer prepared to sell myself short while executives line their pockets with millions off my back. For me, it ends here. They want seventeen years from me, I want my piece of the pie. It is really just that simple. I am prepared to take an uncertain future, as I do not believe the future they are selling us is anymore certain.
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Boreas
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by Boreas » Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:55 pm

truedude wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:50 pm
Look around and tell me where those 600 pilots are that actively want to leave the job they are in.
Umm... WestJet / Encore!?
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Lightchop
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by Lightchop » Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:01 pm

truedude wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:50 pm


We are not postal workers... The world is not short of people who can carry bags and walk. I respect your position, and where you are in your career. But you have already let your position be known; you hope to be at Air Canada, and see these terms as your path to get there. I don't blame you for this, and wish it all works out for you regardless of how this plays out. This is not long term security. There is no such thing in life or in this industry. Air Canada will be forced to take 60% from Jazz regardless of whether we accept this TA or not. You say do the research, I recommend you do the same. Air Canada will need 400 - 600 Airline rated pilots this year. Look around and tell me where those 600 pilots are that actively want to leave the job they are in. They will need close to 200 at least the year after, likely more because they will fall short. They want seventeen years from us because they know the market is changing--and years of putting downward pressure on our profession has turned around an bit them hard in the ass.

I know what I am worth. I am no longer prepared to sell myself short while executives line their pockets with millions off my back. For me, it ends here. They want seventeen years from me, I want my piece of the pie. It is really just that simple. I am prepared to take an uncertain future, as I do not believe the future they are selling us is anymore certain.
Fair points and I respect your opinion.

I actually haven't made my decision if I'd like to go to AC yet. I'm a Jr Captain and I could do pretty well with this deal given all the retirements coming and likely a large number of people ahead of me going to AC. I guess I should say I'm waiting to see the full details with the pay tables.
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Lightchop
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by Lightchop » Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:02 pm

Boreas wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:55 pm
truedude wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:50 pm
Look around and tell me where those 600 pilots are that actively want to leave the job they are in.
Umm... WestJet / Encore!?
After this arbitrated deal, I wonder how many applications AC has received from WJ pilots in the last few weeks.
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truedude
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by truedude » Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:03 pm

Boreas wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:55 pm
truedude wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:50 pm
Look around and tell me where those 600 pilots are that actively want to leave the job they are in.
Umm... WestJet / Encore!?

Don't mistake disgruntled, with people who want to leave. An F/O who has been at Westjet for even a couple years is going to be hard pressed to take a 60,000 pay cut to go to Air Canada, regardless of how unhappy they are. Lots will go from Encore, as they have been. But not everyone wants to work for Air Canada, and even less want to live in Toronto (as hard as that might be to fathom for the people who live in Toronto). They know they are screwed to find qualified people to fly their airplanes. They have known it for a while. This play acknowledges that desperation. Air Canada came to Jazz and said they wanted to take 300 pilots this year, we told them we couldn't replace that many people without having a negative impact on our operation. And now look, they created a solution. Consolidate the regional flying, create a surplus, take that surplus, and then turn around and try and sell a seventeen year deal as if it is a gift from God.
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by 47north » Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:47 am

Air Canada will need 400 - 600 Airline rated pilots this year
Who says they have to be ATPL pilots? That is their internal requirements. In the long term yes they will need a reliable supply of pilots. In the short to medium turn they would have no problem filling seats with CPL pilots if they had too. They’ve done it before in the 70’s and 80’s and they can do it again. Or Westjet, Encore, Pasco, etc...

In the meantime Jazz pilots will have missed an opportunity. And no, I have no interest is going to AC but I would hate to see that path cut off for others.

As someone else said, play the long game here. We are mirroring what is happening south of the border. Major partner taking back an equity stake in their regionals. Signing bonuses are now converting to base salary to attract talent at the initiative of management. Wages going up. Basic economics and it will happen here too.
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by TheStig » Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:51 am

AC has fallen behind on hiring. Saying you'd like to hire 600 pilots this year is different than hiring 600 pilots this year. I've heard 400-500, last year was about 450. The ability to train new hires as well as AC pilots transitioning to different types is a limiting factor. 2020 looks to be another year spent catching up due to retirements and new duty regulations. Beyond that is anyone's guess? The fleet projection doesn't show the same sort of growth experienced between 2015-2019. What's about the possibility of a recession.

I'm not trying to tell you to vote one way or another, just wanted to provide some more accurate hiring information.
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mbav8r
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by mbav8r » Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:01 am

Take this for what it’s worth from a guy who is not going to AC, calling Calin’s bluff is a huge gamble, one with a significant downside, not fear mongering just pointing out reality.
We called his bluff in 2010 and are now realizing the ramifications of that, the B scale was a direct result of calling his bluff, as was the DC pension, etc, etc...
As one who is on the original pay scale with coincidentally, 17ish years to go, I wasn’t expecting any real improvements at all before 2025, remember we have a 10 year cost neutral contract, here were are 4 years later opening up the contract with fairly decent, on the surface anyhow, improvements. 17 years of guaranteed flying sounds good to this old guy who will be too young to retire 2025 but too friggen old to start over, gambling is not in the cards for me.
The market will dictate what the next 17 years looks like, if they need something it will be opened up again, if we have a recession, we have a guarantee barring a bankruptcy filing, of course.
Next, I don’t know what a blended pay scale is but I feel that I make a decent money and want to see improvements made at the bottom wages, fixing that is my priority, yes I voted for it knowing it will eventually come back to haunt us, again it was more palatable than starting over.
As for GGN pilots getting DOH, I’m less than thrilled with that, no I’m outright upset about that even though I know this is a step in the right direction for pilots, so it has to happen. I am tired of pilots screwing over other pilots and getting rewarded for it and honestly don’t believe this olive branch with have any effect on changing that, the next scoop will no doubt see pilots apply for the spots to skip the so called que, but the current GGN pilots did join ALPA and were not budging in negotiations, this cost them their jobs, so that has to be considered.
Full disclosure, it won’t effect me much, if at all, I doubt their are many their senior to me.
All of this is contingent on us signing the deal, including the 100 million investment which could be directed elsewhere so again, calling his bluff has a potential for a huge risk, not one I’m willing to take, live to fight another day.
My gut tells me, if we sign this, the next shoe to drop will be SR, of course unless they play ball. A clear message is being sent to their on going negotiations.
Also, despite the militant pilots rhetoric, I believe there is enough in this for all groups and it will pass with a 60-70% vote, if you feel like gambling go to Vegas and put it all on black, I believe your odds of winning big to be about the same, we are not the U.S, we don’t have a shortage of pilots.
You want a big raise, lobby the government to change the rule that allows 250 hour pilots to fly 705 aircraft and two years later with PIC under supervision, occupy the left seat, change that rule and I’m with you, other than that it’s delusional to think they couldn’t replace us.
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truedude
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by truedude » Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:19 am

mbav8r wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:01 am
Take this for what it’s worth from a guy who is not going to AC, calling Calin’s bluff is a huge gamble, one with a significant downside, not fear mongering just pointing out reality.
We called his bluff in 2010 and are now realizing the ramifications of that, the B scale was a direct result of calling his bluff, as was the DC pension, etc, etc...
As one who is on the original pay scale with coincidentally, 17ish years to go, I wasn’t expecting any real improvements at all before 2025, remember we have a 10 year cost neutral contract, here were are 4 years later opening up the contract with fairly decent, on the surface anyhow, improvements. 17 years of guaranteed flying sounds good to this old guy who will be too young to retire 2025 but too friggen old to start over, gambling is not in the cards for me.
The market will dictate what the next 17 years looks like, if they need something it will be opened up again, if we have a recession, we have a guarantee barring a bankruptcy filing, of course.
Next, I don’t know what a blended pay scale is but I feel that I make a decent money and want to see improvements made at the bottom wages, fixing that is my priority, yes I voted for it knowing it will eventually come back to haunt us, again it was more palatable than starting over.
As for GGN pilots getting DOH, I’m less than thrilled with that, no I’m outright upset about that even though I know this is a step in the right direction for pilots, so it has to happen. I am tired of pilots screwing over other pilots and getting rewarded for it and honestly don’t believe this olive branch with have any effect on changing that, the next scoop will no doubt see pilots apply for the spots to skip the so called que, but the current GGN pilots did join ALPA and were not budging in negotiations, this cost them their jobs, so that has to be considered.
Full disclosure, it won’t effect me much, if at all, I doubt their are many their senior to me.
All of this is contingent on us signing the deal, including the 100 million investment which could be directed elsewhere so again, calling his bluff has a potential for a huge risk, not one I’m willing to take, live to fight another day.
My gut tells me, if we sign this, the next shoe to drop will be SR, of course unless they play ball. A clear message is being sent to their on going negotiations.
Also, despite the militant pilots rhetoric, I believe there is enough in this for all groups and it will pass with a 60-70% vote, if you feel like gambling go to Vegas and put it all on black, I believe your odds of winning big to be about the same, we are not the U.S, we don’t have a shortage of pilots.
You want a big raise, lobby the government to change the rule that allows 250 hour pilots to fly 705 aircraft and two years later with PIC under supervision, occupy the left seat, change that rule and I’m with you, other than that it’s delusional to think they couldn’t replace us.
I am not calling Calin's bluff... I doubt he has done anything except make what he believes to be a fair deal. I don't expect you will spend one penny more. But I do expect Joe Randell to pony up more cash--directly from his bank account would be my preference. I will not be responsible for making that man one penny richer. And if voting no denies him millions, I will honestly consider it all a success. If he wants it to pass, he is going to have to pay. It is really just that simple. He has a lot to lose too if Air Canada takes their hundred million and goes elsewhere. He will not bully me into accepting a crappy deal. This is after all, the man that called us "terrorists" back in the 2010 negotiations.
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mbav8r
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by mbav8r » Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:43 am

truedude wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:19 am
[quote=mbav8r post_id=<a href="tel:1066301">1066301</a> time=<a href="tel:1547823663">1547823663</a> user_id=8159]
Take this for what it’s worth from a guy who is not going to AC, calling Calin’s bluff is a huge gamble, one with a significant downside, not fear mongering just pointing out reality.
We called his bluff in 2010 and are now realizing the ramifications of that, the B scale was a direct result of calling his bluff, as was the DC pension, etc, etc...
As one who is on the original pay scale with coincidentally, 17ish years to go, I wasn’t expecting any real improvements at all before 2025, remember we have a 10 year cost neutral contract, here were are 4 years later opening up the contract with fairly decent, on the surface anyhow, improvements. 17 years of guaranteed flying sounds good to this old guy who will be too young to retire 2025 but too friggen old to start over, gambling is not in the cards for me.
The market will dictate what the next 17 years looks like, if they need something it will be opened up again, if we have a recession, we have a guarantee barring a bankruptcy filing, of course.
Next, I don’t know what a blended pay scale is but I feel that I make a decent money and want to see improvements made at the bottom wages, fixing that is my priority, yes I voted for it knowing it will eventually come back to haunt us, again it was more palatable than starting over.
As for GGN pilots getting DOH, I’m less than thrilled with that, no I’m outright upset about that even though I know this is a step in the right direction for pilots, so it has to happen. I am tired of pilots screwing over other pilots and getting rewarded for it and honestly don’t believe this olive branch with have any effect on changing that, the next scoop will no doubt see pilots apply for the spots to skip the so called que, but the current GGN pilots did join ALPA and were not budging in negotiations, this cost them their jobs, so that has to be considered.
Full disclosure, it won’t effect me much, if at all, I doubt their are many their senior to me.
All of this is contingent on us signing the deal, including the 100 million investment which could be directed elsewhere so again, calling his bluff has a potential for a huge risk, not one I’m willing to take, live to fight another day.
My gut tells me, if we sign this, the next shoe to drop will be SR, of course unless they play ball. A clear message is being sent to their on going negotiations.
Also, despite the militant pilots rhetoric, I believe there is enough in this for all groups and it will pass with a 60-70% vote, if you feel like gambling go to Vegas and put it all on black, I believe your odds of winning big to be about the same, we are not the U.S, we don’t have a shortage of pilots.
You want a big raise, lobby the government to change the rule that allows 250 hour pilots to fly 705 aircraft and two years later with PIC under supervision, occupy the left seat, change that rule and I’m with you, other than that it’s delusional to think they couldn’t replace us.
I am not calling Calin's bluff... I doubt he has done anything except make what he believes to be a fair deal. I don't expect you will spend one penny more. But I do expect Joe Randell to pony up more cash--directly from his bank account would be my preference. I will not be responsible for making that man one penny richer. And if voting no denies him millions, I will honestly consider it all a success. If he wants it to pass, he is going to have to pay. It is really just that simple. He has a lot to lose too if Air Canada takes their hundred million and goes elsewhere. He will not bully me into accepting a crappy deal. This is after all, the man that called us "terrorists" back in the 2010 negotiations.
[/quote]
Truedude, believe me when I say that making Joe rich is sickening to me, however he is already rich off our backs and will just ride off into the sunset should the whole thing crumble, you are effectively cutting off your nose to spite your face.
Chorus has diversified and will bounce back should Jazz fail, he would just lease the airplanes to our replacement, call it beaten dog syndrome if you like but revenge is a terrible reason to go down with the ship.
Please, re-read my last paragraph, change that and I’m with you.
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truedude
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by truedude » Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:09 am

mbav8r wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:43 am
truedude wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:19 am
[quote=mbav8r post_id=<a href="tel:1066301">1066301</a> time=<a href="tel:1547823663">1547823663</a> user_id=8159]
Take this for what it’s worth from a guy who is not going to AC, calling Calin’s bluff is a huge gamble, one with a significant downside, not fear mongering just pointing out reality.
We called his bluff in 2010 and are now realizing the ramifications of that, the B scale was a direct result of calling his bluff, as was the DC pension, etc, etc...
As one who is on the original pay scale with coincidentally, 17ish years to go, I wasn’t expecting any real improvements at all before 2025, remember we have a 10 year cost neutral contract, here were are 4 years later opening up the contract with fairly decent, on the surface anyhow, improvements. 17 years of guaranteed flying sounds good to this old guy who will be too young to retire 2025 but too friggen old to start over, gambling is not in the cards for me.
The market will dictate what the next 17 years looks like, if they need something it will be opened up again, if we have a recession, we have a guarantee barring a bankruptcy filing, of course.
Next, I don’t know what a blended pay scale is but I feel that I make a decent money and want to see improvements made at the bottom wages, fixing that is my priority, yes I voted for it knowing it will eventually come back to haunt us, again it was more palatable than starting over.
As for GGN pilots getting DOH, I’m less than thrilled with that, no I’m outright upset about that even though I know this is a step in the right direction for pilots, so it has to happen. I am tired of pilots screwing over other pilots and getting rewarded for it and honestly don’t believe this olive branch with have any effect on changing that, the next scoop will no doubt see pilots apply for the spots to skip the so called que, but the current GGN pilots did join ALPA and were not budging in negotiations, this cost them their jobs, so that has to be considered.
Full disclosure, it won’t effect me much, if at all, I doubt their are many their senior to me.
All of this is contingent on us signing the deal, including the 100 million investment which could be directed elsewhere so again, calling his bluff has a potential for a huge risk, not one I’m willing to take, live to fight another day.
My gut tells me, if we sign this, the next shoe to drop will be SR, of course unless they play ball. A clear message is being sent to their on going negotiations.
Also, despite the militant pilots rhetoric, I believe there is enough in this for all groups and it will pass with a 60-70% vote, if you feel like gambling go to Vegas and put it all on black, I believe your odds of winning big to be about the same, we are not the U.S, we don’t have a shortage of pilots.
You want a big raise, lobby the government to change the rule that allows 250 hour pilots to fly 705 aircraft and two years later with PIC under supervision, occupy the left seat, change that rule and I’m with you, other than that it’s delusional to think they couldn’t replace us.
I am not calling Calin's bluff... I doubt he has done anything except make what he believes to be a fair deal. I don't expect you will spend one penny more. But I do expect Joe Randell to pony up more cash--directly from his bank account would be my preference. I will not be responsible for making that man one penny richer. And if voting no denies him millions, I will honestly consider it all a success. If he wants it to pass, he is going to have to pay. It is really just that simple. He has a lot to lose too if Air Canada takes their hundred million and goes elsewhere. He will not bully me into accepting a crappy deal. This is after all, the man that called us "terrorists" back in the 2010 negotiations.
Truedude, believe me when I say that making Joe rich is sickening to me, however he is already rich off our backs and will just ride off into the sunset should the whole thing crumble, you are effectively cutting off your nose to spite your face.
Chorus has diversified and will bounce back should Jazz fail, he would just lease the airplanes to our replacement, call it beaten dog syndrome if you like but revenge is a terrible reason to go down with the ship.
Please, re-read my last paragraph, change that and I’m with you.
[/quote]

Joe in the end has a responsibility to the share holders. If he lets this deal slip away, he will need a pretty good explanation for why it happened. You are right, he is rich. You are right, taking this away from him won't mean much. But Chorus is not diversified anywhere near enough to keep the stock at its current price. And in the end, Joe would see his "legacy" crumble. That means something to these guys. This industry has known nothing but downward pressure since I entered it. And I am done accepting downward pressure. I am done being told that if I don't do something the world will end tomorrow. And most of all, I am done making these guys money. How about this, we take a look at the last ten years of executive bonus compensation, come up with an average percentage of what their bonus represents when compared to their base salary, and apply the equivalent bonus for all pilots as a percentage of our salary for the life of this contract. I believe that is fair. Colin made a base salary of $400,000 in 2017 and was granted $260,000 worth of shares. So, that represents a 65% premium. So i think moving forward, for the life of this contract, all pilots should get a 65% premium attached to their base salary.

They want us to sign a 17 year deal which will make all of these guys obscenely rich (more so than they already are) and what they are offering won't even keep pace with inflation. Yeah... this will require a long hard think...
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mbav8r
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by mbav8r » Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:15 am

You’re letting emotion influence your thinking, like I am however I’ve realized a long time ago the rich get richer and me trying to stick it to the man won’t do anything but affect my livelihood.
They all bounce back or land on their feet, look at the payout for Saretsky, he violated a written agreement about scope, was rewarded with a huge payout, more than most people earn in a lifetime of working, then as icing on the cake the arbitration awards 30 fins to Swoop. Where’s the justice?
I have no doubt in my mind if we vote this down, 2025 will be the end of Jazz the airlines, so if that happens I’ll be the first one out the door. Better I start over now then 5 years from now, anyhow vote how you want obviously but best do it with yours eyes wide open. Me, I’m hoping that 51% or more of us see the reality of our situation.
Good luck
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by truedude » Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:18 am

mbav8r wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:15 am
You’re letting emotion influence your thinking, like I am however I’ve realized a long time ago the rich get richer and me trying to stick it to the man won’t do anything but affect my livelihood.
They all bounce back or land on their feet, look at the payout for Saretsky, he violated a written agreement about scope, was rewarded with a huge payout, more than most people earn in a lifetime of working, then as icing on the cake the arbitration awards 30 fins to Swoop. Where’s the justice?
I have no doubt in my mind if we vote this down, 2025 will be the end of Jazz the airlines, so if that happens I’ll be the first one out the door. Better I start over now then 5 years from now, anyhow vote how you want obviously but best do it with yours eyes wide open. Me, I’m hoping that 51% or more of us see the reality of our situation.
Good luck
Reality is subjective to the observer... Remember that
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by fish4life » Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:17 pm

Honest question, if they want to shut down Jazz it’s not like all the flying they do won’t have to be done by someone, with more jobs that Pilots why not try call their bluff and vote it down. If the company didn’t think they were getting one hell of a good deal why would they be trying to lock you up for 17 freaking years. If you take out a 5 year term on a mortgage your interest rate is lower than a 10 year term on a mortgage for a reason, if the company wants longer cost certainty it should cost them.
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by Kaykay » Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:25 pm

truedude wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:18 am
mbav8r wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:15 am
You’re letting emotion influence your thinking, like I am however I’ve realized a long time ago the rich get richer and me trying to stick it to the man won’t do anything but affect my livelihood.
They all bounce back or land on their feet, look at the payout for Saretsky, he violated a written agreement about scope, was rewarded with a huge payout, more than most people earn in a lifetime of working, then as icing on the cake the arbitration awards 30 fins to Swoop. Where’s the justice?
I have no doubt in my mind if we vote this down, 2025 will be the end of Jazz the airlines, so if that happens I’ll be the first one out the door. Better I start over now then 5 years from now, anyhow vote how you want obviously but best do it with yours eyes wide open. Me, I’m hoping that 51% or more of us see the reality of our situation.
Good luck
Reality is subjective to the observer... Remember that
Um, no it isn't. Reality is reality. Whether someone sees reality or their own bastardization of it is another matter entirely.
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by truedude » Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:59 pm

Kaykay wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:25 pm
truedude wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:18 am
mbav8r wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:15 am
You’re letting emotion influence your thinking, like I am however I’ve realized a long time ago the rich get richer and me trying to stick it to the man won’t do anything but affect my livelihood.
They all bounce back or land on their feet, look at the payout for Saretsky, he violated a written agreement about scope, was rewarded with a huge payout, more than most people earn in a lifetime of working, then as icing on the cake the arbitration awards 30 fins to Swoop. Where’s the justice?
I have no doubt in my mind if we vote this down, 2025 will be the end of Jazz the airlines, so if that happens I’ll be the first one out the door. Better I start over now then 5 years from now, anyhow vote how you want obviously but best do it with yours eyes wide open. Me, I’m hoping that 51% or more of us see the reality of our situation.
Good luck
Reality is subjective to the observer... Remember that
Um, no it isn't. Reality is reality. Whether someone sees reality or their own bastardization of it is another matter entirely.
No, what you are talking about I something that is quantafiable. The way people view the world around them, and thus "their" reality is subjective; it is based on personality, life experiences, knowledge base, and their interpretation of how those are then applied to the world. We can all agree that the length of something is x and that temperature is y. But when someone suggests that he firmly believes this will be the end of Jazz, that is not reality. That is what he believes the reality of the situation to be. It isn't based on anything tangable but how he looks at the world and casts past experiences into the future.

There are many books that deal with how the human brain deals with the world around you, but the one I recommend is "Thinking Fast & Slow"
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mbav8r
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by mbav8r » Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:30 pm

truedude wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:59 pm
Kaykay wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:25 pm
truedude wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:18 am


Reality is subjective to the observer... Remember that
Um, no it isn't. Reality is reality. Whether someone sees reality or their own bastardization of it is another matter entirely.
No, what you are talking about I something that is quantafiable. The way people view the world around them, and thus "their" reality is subjective; it is based on personality, life experiences, knowledge base, and their interpretation of how those are then applied to the world. We can all agree that the length of something is x and that temperature is y. But when someone suggests that he firmly believes this will be the end of Jazz, that is not reality. That is what he believes the reality of the situation to be. It isn't based on anything tangable but how he looks at the world and casts past experiences into the future.

There are many books that deal with how the human brain deals with the world around you, but the one I recommend is "Thinking Fast & Slow"
I’m sorry, I thought learning from past experience dealing with the same guy was somewhat tangible, my mistake then.
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by ikarus » Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:35 pm

Lightchop.....I am thinking very careful and I say NO to this FIRST offer. There will be another round of negotiations if we stick together. And if there isn't one, so be it. Let GGN keep their CRJs and fly them harder and for less pay then us. Let them even get 900s....plenty of other airlines hiring around. But you are too much comfortable and afraid to stand up for yourself. Just like half the other guys who voted in the current CA few years back. Now everyone is complaining and whining about but they still said YES.....so here is another chance to confirm this new CA and be miserable for the next 17 years.

Truedude,

I like your mentality and the way you think....sorry my friend but we seem to be a minority unfortunately :cry:
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by CFM56 » Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:07 pm

ikarus wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:35 pm
Lightchop.....I am thinking very careful and I say NO to this FIRST offer. There will be another round of negotiations if we stick together. And if there isn't one, so be it. Let GGN keep their CRJs and fly them harder and for less pay then us. Let them even get 900s....plenty of other airlines hiring around. But you are too much comfortable and afraid to stand up for yourself. Just like half the other guys who voted in the current CA few years back. Now everyone is complaining and whining about but they still said YES.....so here is another chance to confirm this new CA and be miserable for the next 17 years.

Truedude,

I like your mentality and the way you think....sorry my friend but we seem to be a minority unfortunately :cry:
Not sure how much of a minority it is... there are lots not happy about it that I’ve spoken to in the last couple days.
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by Rowdy » Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:13 pm

Every single person ive talked to today about this thinks its a load of shit. The crew room and hallways were filled with distrust for the mec and the company.

It will be a hard no from me.
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by Chips&Pops » Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:44 pm

Lightchop wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:55 pm
AC just announced today the repatriation of a lot of Express routes. With this agreement we would be securing work for seventeen years. At the same time AC has shown their willingness to take flying back. With the addition of the C-Series I think it's a very possible chance if we don't do this deal we will lose many more routes over the next 6 years.

Any other industry that is as volitile as ours they would be thrilled to have security for this long. Jazz does not own their flying, we are a contract carrier living off the whim of Air Canada's moods.

AC has committed to hire no less than 60% of their pilots from Jazz. In seniority. This should kick start the upgrade boom we saw in 2016/2017 as the majority of the first to leave this year will be post 2015 Captains. Even if someone has GGN pilots slot in above them, they should see the upgrade cycle moving again and the perceived disadvantage of DOH for GGN should be negated. This deal is what may actually give them the coveted left seat sooner.

GGN pilots should be transitioning to Jazz over a year, at the same time AC will be taking minimum 60% of their pilots from Jazz, so I don't imagine many people will be affected. AC claims to need between 600-800 pilots this year. If this deal happens that will be approx 360-480 pilots that are all but guaranteed a job at Air Canada this year.

If everyone is so firm in the belief that there is an upcoming pilot shortage, that will be even better for Jazz Pilots. AC being forced to take 60% of their pilots from Jazz, will mean if there is a shortage, Jazz will have no choice but to come back to the table and bargain again. Not to mention there is an opener in 2029 for pay and pension increases.

They mention a blended table. I hope it's close to or meets the former "A scale."

Who gets 2% garantee on not just wages but all expenses, benefits etc every year for 17 years? Postal Workers went on strike over 0.9%.

If this integration goes smoothly you know the next logical step would be to try to fold Sky into Jazz. Bringing over a new type and more pilots would cause the contract to open again. We can then take even more steps up to increase the pay and conditions at Jazz and remove the final competitor in Express.

You can tell how I'm probably going to vote. I honestly hope everyone on this forum who is at Jazz seriously considers all the options and to come to their own conclusions. Ignore the rhetoric on the line. Read the TA, ask questions to your Negotiation Committee and MEC. Do the research and make an informed decision. If at the end if the day you vote no, but made an informed decision that's all anyone can ask for.

Is there a chance that if we say no they will give us all the flying anyways and GGN will close or GGN fails at doing it and it comes here anyways? Sure. I won't deny that but it's a total risk vs reward scenario and I'm not willing to take the risk with the rest of my career.
Thanks EDITED we all appreciate your concerns No more warnings: Doxxing people isn't cool. Next time, it's a permanent ban.
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by dieselbro » Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:40 pm

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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by Malfunction » Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:53 pm

Confirmed
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