Think carefully before you make your next move

[truedude]

Maybe we should poll the SR pilots, show them our contract and see how they would vote, my guess it would pass.
Now, that being said, if Rovinescue’s plan B is to walk across the street, all he has to do is take this contract and say this will be your CPA 2025 on, how would that vote go?
If you are willing to find that out, just remember, it’s not just your career you’re gambling with, it’s all of ours and I’m truly hoping we live to fight another day.
I once negotiated a raise for myself because I felt I was worth more, I was making 20% more than the four other pilots doing the same job. One night the the payroll office door was left open and another pilot saw the payroll book open on her desk(his story), anyhow he told the other pilots and they went to the owner to demand more or they quit.
The owner came to me and explained the situation and that he could not afford to pay the pilots the same so wanted me to take a pay cut back to the original salary, I did.
It was not about me and what I was worth at the moment it was about the good of the company and later on, about a year later I was management with a negotiated salary that reflected my worth and my sacrifice earlier.
The problem here is you think Air Canada is desperate with no options, that would be a mistake to think that, absolute best case we turn it down and they come back with a few tweaks, worst case we are all hoping SR pilots will give us date of hire in five years when they take over for us.
Even with the best case, a few tweaks would be all we could hope to attain but one thing for sure a no vote signals to Calin he’s still dealing with the same group of pilots who will hold him hostage again in 2025 when our contract does expire, he will initiate plan b long before that.

I guess we would all have jobs at Sky Regional! With DOH... Sweet deal!

[gonnabeapilot]

I guess we would all have jobs at Sky Regional! With DOH... Sweet deal!

This pretty much sums it up and is why I don't understand why so many Jazz folks on this thread are panicked by a no vote. This TA is proof that AC can't even transfer 12 RJs from Georgian to Jazz without transferring the pilots between companies as well. Chorus is even willing to accept pay guarantees and DOH to facilitate it. Anything other than a seamless transfer of pilots between companies will result in an unacceptable amount of schedule disruption to AC.

In 2025 the CPA has Jazz operating 105 aircraft. Let's say AC only magically needs 80 aircraft starting in 2026. Do you really think they can move 80 aircraft between two CPA carriers without making a deal to move pilots as well?? If they can't do it for 12 RJs they certainly can't do it with 80s. Your jobs will be safe. You just might be wearing a different uniform and collecting a slightly different paycheck instead.

[fish4life]

Haven’t posted in a VERY long time. I’m doing so because of my belief that we need to vote YES. Are we worth more? Yes. Is it worth gambling my pension, my accrued seniority, my career stability. No. In the end, as a 13 yr Jazz pilot, I’m paid fairly, I’ve been afforded a great quality of life and I have a pension that I hold dear to my heart. We cannot compare ourselves to the US pilot compensation packages anymore than the AC pilots. We operate under a unique set of circumstances under the umbrella of a CPA. CR is a shrewd and more importantly spiteful individual. Rest assured, there’s a plan B, and it won’t benefit our group. This of course is my opinion. It is nothing more than food for thought as I take and respect everyone’s opinion on this forum. It is unfortunate that our MEC has tabled this deal in the first place to our group however, we have now been put into a dangerous position and what I believe to be a fork in the road moment. I simply am not comfortable taking a gamble, therefore I vote Yes and I implore others to think about potential consequences. Thanks.

Character

In order to do that you are going to ensure that every new hire for the next 17 years is going to be poorest paid regional pilot in the country.

[groundpilot]

Or the world?

[groundpilot]

Haven’t posted in a VERY long time. I’m doing so because of my belief that we need to vote YES. Are we worth more? Yes. Is it worth gambling my pension, my accrued seniority, my career stability. No. In the end, as a 13 yr Jazz pilot, I’m paid fairly, I’ve been afforded a great quality of life and I have a pension that I hold dear to my heart. We cannot compare ourselves to the US pilot compensation packages anymore than the AC pilots. We operate under a unique set of circumstances under the umbrella of a CPA. CR is a shrewd and more importantly spiteful individual. Rest assured, there’s a plan B, and it won’t benefit our group. This of course is my opinion. It is nothing more than food for thought as I take and respect everyone’s opinion on this forum. It is unfortunate that our MEC has tabled this deal in the first place to our group however, we have now been put into a dangerous position and what I believe to be a fork in the road moment. I simply am not comfortable taking a gamble, therefore I vote Yes and I implore others to think about potential consequences. Thanks.

Character

The theme of this message is why you have new hires at both Jazz & Mainline making what they do.

Senior members throwing the junior members under the bus.

Do you think a FO should make $40 a hourly to operating advanced aircraft in challenging weather & terrain?

Pacific Coastal FOs on B1900s make more to start.

Stand up. This isnt only about Jazz. This deal stinks and a hard NO is what this industry needs...

[Character]

I truly understand the pains associated with our starting salaries. They are atrocious. I started at $34k and $38k respectively in my first 2 years. They were very difficult with kids and a house to pay for. Just because I made such paltry wages doesn’t make it right for new hires to also make such unjust wages. There was however, light at the end of the tunnel and I was rewarded here after a number of difficult years financially. So don’t think for a second I do not understand your posn. I have been here for numerous contracts however, and I have a different vantage point (financially...thankfully) now than I did then. We, as a senior group gained NOTHING financially other than the status quo in this contract in order for improvemts to the post 2015 hires. Every FO I work with wants to go to AC and quite frankly, they should go, as it’s still the premium work place in Canada. They wanted an opportunity to go with language that supports that desire. They also wanted to rid themselves of the B scale, of which never should have been accepted. Hopefully we’ve made a step in the right direction. The post 2015 hires have had an opportunity to go Capt much quicker than I ever did and I’m happy for them. I had to wait too long for my opp to go left seat due to a stagnant industry and retirements that got extended 5 yrs. There’s really no point to the afformentioned info, other to paint a picture that I understand. I simply fall victim to the perceived (real or otherwise) threat of a plan B by CR. Some of us can afford to wager our current position on our future and others, such as myself can’t. Therefore, I am voting yes. I represent 1 vote. Their are numerous things to consider and this contract vote deserves serious thought by all of the various age groups in our group. That is all. No ill intent intended. The original post was ‘think carefully before your next move’ and I thought it was aptly named and made me want to share my thoughts. Thanks.

[Blue Side Up]

I truly understand the pains associated with our starting salaries. They are atrocious. I started at $34k and $38k respectively in my first 2 years. They were very difficult with kids and a house to pay for. Just because I made such paltry wages doesn’t make it right for new hires to also make such unjust wages. There was however, light at the end of the tunnel and I was rewarded here after a number of difficult years financially. So don’t think for a second I do not understand your posn. I have been here for numerous contracts however, and I have a different vantage point (financially...thankfully) now than I did then. We, as a senior group gained NOTHING financially other than the status quo in this contract in order for improvemts to the post 2015 hires. Every FO I work with wants to go to AC and quite frankly, they should go, as it’s still the premium work place in Canada. They wanted an opportunity to go with language that supports that desire. They also wanted to rid themselves of the B scale, of which never should have been accepted. Hopefully we’ve made a step in the right direction. The post 2015 hires have had an opportunity to go Capt much quicker than I ever did and I’m happy for them. I had to wait too long for my opp to go left seat due to a stagnant industry and retirements that got extended 5 yrs. There’s really no point to the afformentioned info, other to paint a picture that I understand. I simply fall victim to the perceived (real or otherwise) threat of a plan B by CR. Some of us can afford to wager our current position on our future and others, such as myself can’t. Therefore, I am voting yes. I represent 1 vote. Their are numerous things to consider and this contract vote deserves serious thought by all of the various age groups in our group. That is all. No ill intent intended. The original post was ‘think carefully before your next move’ and I thought it was aptly named and made me want to share my thoughts. Thanks.

First off - we need to establish in what year you were making 34-38k. Making that amount even 10 years ago is irrelevant today. 10 years ago you can buy a house just outside of Toronto for $500k that today is worth over a million. I get that most pilots aren’t interested in macro economics and financial markets but acknowledging that 38k today is no where near what it was 10 years ago is step one. And if you’re argument is “you can live in Montreal or Calgary or live outside of Toronto” don’t waste your breath because i have dozens of counter arguments.

This contract is a joke. I was at Jazz for 4 years before I left to mainline and this contract is pissing me off even now. Management is playing the two ends of the spectrum here. Junior guys who want to go to mainline are voting yes. Senior guys who are less than 17 years away from retiring are going to vote yes for obvious reasons. The median guys are gonna get shafted with a disgusting 2% wage increase for 17 years.. 17 years! That’s insane!
Do you know what could happen in 17 years?? Right now the world is in a deflationary state after years and years of fiscal stimulus around the world. The 30 year bond bull market is coming to an end (we’ve seen breakouts through trend recently dating back to the 80s) What does a bond bear market look like you ask? A rising interest rate environment to combat inflation. We haven’t seen inflation affect the consumer as much as we have in fincaual assets (tons of inflation in the stock market and housing markets - particularly in Toronto and Vancouver)

Even if we get to 4% inflation - not even considering the possibility of 15+ % inflation that we saw in the 80s.. You’re purchasing power decreases by 2% compounded over 17 years! $100 dollars today would require $140 in 17 years to purchase the same amount of goods.

If you want to lock in the 17 year deal - do you. At least have the balls to add some wording to include variable inflation to keep up with CPI in the contract. These issues need to be brought up to your MEC! At least bring the contract back to the good ol” days prior to ‘15 when guys were proud to be Jazz pilots and wouldn’t mind hanging their hat at that company.

This industry sucks. Pilots need to learn about markets and business because without that knowledge we are doomed!

[Blue Side Up]

If you don’t understand how this works yet here’s a quick breakdown. People running the show who have great insight into business and investing exploit pilots’ lack of knowledge in economics and business to further their needs. Why do you think AC is shifting the flying from Georgian to Jazz? Is it because Calin woke up one morning and felt like doing Jazz a solid? Or is this a strategic move to supply AC with a reliable regional network and steady supply of pilots? Hmm I wonder..

It’s clear Georgian dropped the ball and really fucked with ACs network and system. Just look at the bongo
board in Pearson and see the amount of delayed or cancelled Georgian flights. If you think they’re going to give all the 900s to Georgian because you voted no to this deal you’re not too bright. AC would never risk a fundamental part of their business (regional network) for a few bucks an hour for pilots pay. It would require a massive amount of investment in Georgian and SR for that matter to get them to Jazz’s standard of operation. AC is realizing that if you pay bananas (Georgian) you get a shit company that NO pilot wants to be at long term. It was a matter of time before this happened.

Don’t let the unknown guide you through this decision. If you don’t believe we’re in or entering a pilot shortage - you’re delusional. Look at the average time it takes to get to AC nowadays.. 3 years? Maybe 4? What was that from 1990-2015? 10 years? Some guys got on early - sure. But on average? I’m guessing around the 10 year mark. Ya sure you can keep sucking fresh CPLs out of college and they’ll fly you’re airplanes. What happens when a Q gets spun in to the ground like what happened at Colgan? All it takes is one major incident where pilot experience was a contributing factor and BAM! There’s your 1500 hr rule. Than are we in a pilot shortage?

If you’re gonna lock in a deal for 17 years it better satisfy every pilot across the curve - not just the juniors and seniors. You ALL deserve to have an awesome contract and pay that allows you to buy a house and raise a family close to the airport you fly out of. Living in Toronto with a young family is f**king expensive! Don’t sell yourselves short.

[fish4life]

Only a little over 17 years ago we weren’t sure if the world was going to melt down because no one knew if the computers programmed could handle the year 2000.
The iPhone was over 5 years away from being invented
9/11 was very very fresh in everyone’s mind
The average house price in Canada was a little over $160000

If there is a big downturn the company can come to the pilots and get a concessionary contract if they declare bankruptcy, if they start printing money what can the pilots do? Nothing except wish they didn’t sign a 17 year contract.

The only way I’d vote yes is if the CEO / BOD signed a deal tying their salaries to a 2% increase for the next 17 years as well.

[proper]

If it's a round of 120 mortgage payments...I'm IN!

[blueskiessabove]

To all my fellow aviators out there, think twice about voting yes. If you do you should be ashamed of yourself, this is the reason why the industry is so shitty in Canada and isn't getting better. Stop letting the fear mongering tactics get to you. Jazz isn't going anywhere and will be around for a long time to come. For the people just thinking about them selves to go to AC... think about the next generation behind you. The people that think about them selves shouldn't even be allowed to have a vote, there is a much bigger plot at play and that's how long can AC keep shitting on everyone.

[fish4life]

So everyone is so worried about Sky regional now... their STARTING FO pay is 20% higher than this Jazz new deal AND they just unionized so I bet they won’t be accepting lower pay. Let that sink in for a second.

[blueskiessabove]

We doubled down against Calin in 2010...........Sky and GGN were born, YYZ decimated and no right to BID on work for YEARS.

Now we would have a MINIMUM 90% chance at a mainline job...Loyalty from mainline (investment and board member)...chance at US Cpa...pay guarantee...united pay table...pensions....security.... the possibility to unite the express brand under one company again.


Vote no and GGN grows, still stuck with that EYESORE A scale B scale, smaller fleet, fractured group... AC gives us final offer to play in 2023 for less than a quarter of what is in front of us. I would bet on that.

Calin would make a mess...I VOTE YES!!!

Your history is off by a fair bit. We didn't double down against Calin. Our company removed 30 million worth of negotiated items from the table after they felt they had the government in their pocket. We responded. Sky Regional was born shortly after. It is our management that is responsible for Sky Regional existing, not the pilots.

You have no idea what Air Canada will do. GGN is done either way, that much is clear. Calin is working on his exit and will be long gone by 2025. The world will be a very different place by then. Who is to say what will happen, but you are doing is nothing more than speculating and attempting to scare people into voting yes. It won't work. Not on me.

Truedude,
It is your recollection that is off, we did in fact double down.
You’re correct that the company removed 30 mil from the table, this was their reaction to the feds indicating they had back to work legislation ready to be tabled however what is lesser known is that the NDP party told our union that they would not return from summer break to pass that legislation.
This is from a person in the room, so I got it from that person not third hand information, Calin told our negotiators that if we go on strike he will reduce us to the minimum the current CPA would allow and we would be laying off pilots, he also swore he would never be in a position to be held hostage by us again, paraphrasing of course. Then, SR and GGN arrived on scene and here we are, I will not call his bluff again and for all Jazz pilots sake I hope we pass this, let me be perfectly clear, there is NO shortage of pilots in Canada. We are taking graduates straight from school, two years later they have their ATPL and seniority for the left seat.
The other factor, what are the chances between now and 2025 we enter some type of recession? This will play a role, I will not bet my retirement on the economy continuing without a hiccup and Calin not having a plan b, this is not fear based, I’m simply aware of our adversary’s capability and willingness to decimate us.

This kid that gives these speculations isn't very bright. There is a huge shortage and that's why all of this is happening give your head a shake. It's a solid NO for me and I'm gonna educate everyone that is thinking to vote Yes to think twice. SAD SAD state were in when people are voting yes cause there scared.

[V1Vr]

So everyone is so worried about Sky regional now... their STARTING FO pay is 20% higher than this Jazz new deal AND they just unionized so I bet they won’t be accepting lower pay. Let that sink in for a second.

They also cap out at what, 6 years?

If anyone is actually worried about a pilot shortage, as soon as a company starts cancelling flights because they don't have staff I'm sure they would come back to rectify entry level wages.

[nogo]

The yes voters are playing right into Calin Rovinescu's game. Listen to the man himself. Quotes from Calin:

"Fear paralyzes. Absolute fear paralyzes absolutely."
"Avoiding mediocrity involves taking some risk."
"...be unreasonable in your expectations..."
Calin Rovinescu

Source:
https://www.uottawa.ca/president/honora ... -rovinescu

Anyone that believes AC will have 17 years of massive hiring must be incredibly naive in my opinion. To throw the entire industry under the bus for something that AC may go back on their word, and they have in the past and they will again. And then how are you going to file a grievance again them? You can only grieve your own employer. ALPA already admitted to us in our face at the YUL road show that the bargaining process is corrupt and vote yes or else, no way in 9 lives are they going to grieve AC for you and get in a 3 way legal battle. To me they have already showed me that they can't do anything for us. AC has another contract with better numbers all drawn out. The one they want us to actually vote yes on. This is just the Art of the Deal; propose something so outrageous that your adversary will accept the mediocre offer #2 which is actually the mediocre offer they were hoping you would sign. The only offer I would sign is offer #3, which is also drawn up. In the 2025, AC has lot of union contracts within AC to re-negotiate. It will be an interesting year, and the management will be different.

Air Georgian is a failed experiment, they won't be propped up anymore, or else the new planes would have already been there. Air Georgian is too much of a liability for Air Canada. It's a multi-billion dollar global business. The risk assessment for AC came out that they (Air Georgian) have the highest potential of putting an airplane in the ground in the entire Air Canada network with the Air Canada colors on the tail. Not the type of Global News Air Canada want to make. Who is left? Sky Regional?... Who are their investors? Who payed to prop up that company? Who paid for and gave them the Airplanes? Oh ya.. Air Canada. So we'll just go to Sky Regional with our DOH if their was any weight to these threats. You Pilots have a lot more WEIGHT and CLOUT then you are giving yourself credit for. YOU have a massive upper hand, and Calin Rovinescu is not going to chop your hands off, he is trying to make you chop your own hands off! He is a genius, and is a master at his craft. His craft, instilling doubt and fear! Doubt. Think about that word for a little moment and think about Calin's education. He is Lawyer by education and by trade, and do you know how Lawyers win incredibly difficult cases in Criminal Law at least? By instilling just enough doubt, because the burden of proof is beyond any reasonable doubt.

About absorbing the Air Georgian Pilots with DOH. If ALPA is telling us that AC taking their flying away gives them the right to have a lateral transfer to JAZZ, then if and when AC takes our flying away from us (common employer) they owe us a job with a lateral transfer. If ALPA disagrees with that, start asking questions about who they are really working for, because "the whole bargaining process is corrupt." Forgot which rep said it at the road show, but they have it on video.

[blueskiessabove]

I will be voting NO.

Can you imagine if the U.S. regionals locked in a 17 year TA (10 years cost neutral) when they were making $18k a year? Just under the guise of stability? Now they are getting signing bonuses and gains like never before. AC and Chorus know this is coming and want to lock us in at these bargain prices. Did you know on the new blended payscale it takes until 2030 for a 2nd year FO to make what they made on our pre-2015 pay scale in 2017? Complete joke. If they want us to sign an unprecedented 17 year TA they should have made us an unprecedented offer. This a sad load of trash.

I could not agree with you more . All these people that think this is the best we are gonna get are crazy and i'll informed. This contract is a joke. BIG FAT NO! vote for me too.

[47north]

To all my fellow aviators out there, think twice about voting yes. If you do you should be ashamed of yourself, this is the reason why the industry is so shitty in Canada and isn't getting better. Stop letting the fear mongering tactics get to you. Jazz isn't going anywhere and will be around for a long time to come. For the people just thinking about them selves to go to AC... think about the next generation behind you. The people that think about them selves shouldn't even be allowed to have a vote, there is a much bigger plot at play and that's how long can AC keep shitting on everyone.

What is shameful is that you blueskiesabove, as an LEC/MEC member, is telling Jazz pilots that they should be ashamed of voting the way they want.

Let me guess - Are you are one of the rogue members that tried to instigate a coup recently and now you are pissed that didn't succeed and are trying to push your own political agenda?

You tell others to 'stop letting fear mongering tactics get to you', yet you are doing the exactly the same thing to push forward your own agenda. You should know full well that we will not be locked into the same conditions for the full length of the TA. If we as pilots are such a finite resource as you say, the company will be back to sweeten the pot along the way - as they have with this MOS well in advance of the end of the current TA and as had been the case with US regionals.

Meanwhile the rest of the MEC has taken the rational approach that is is better to secure the work and a concrete flow to AC for all those that wish to take that path.

For the record I am not an ALPA officer, just a member who thinks that an MEC member should not be posting anonymously on this form. I hope other members recognize what your true agenda is here.

BTW my vote is an unconditional YES!

[C-GGGQ]

So your vote to locking Ina 17 year contract is yes, because you won't REALLY be locked in? That's a big gamble.

[negative.g]

47north a question for you?

So the AC flow is written into the TA? And it says 90% of applications will be hired? and 60% of GS to be Jazz pilots?
Also you are saying that this contract will not run till 2035? It will be renegotiated before then? Is that also written in some where?

[DanWEC]

I don't know the specifics of the Jazz contract, and I'm not employed there, so take this post as more of a commentary than aimed specifically at the contract.

The pilot shortage is growing every year by an additional deficit of 500 pilots. That's every, single, year with no sign of that changing whatsoever. The real worst of it hasn't hit 705 yet until the current adaptation strategy of reducing hours has been used up and hits the stop.

The company knows this, and obviously every major airline has made projections and had a strategy in place to address it, as it will be a major problem in a few more years.

Just remember guys, WHY does this shortage exist in the first place? Because of endless concessions, negotiations, and CARROTS.

Think about why there would be signing bonus for such a deal? Dont we all "bribe" our kids to do something they don't want to do?

There are also just 2 express carriers now Jazz and Sky, both under ALPA now. Sky is about to begin tabling negotiations for their first contract, and a crappy precedent set by Jazz would severely weaken their position to increase wages. Think about the big picture guys!

Don't forget, for the first time ever, we're holding the cards, and our hand is getting better every day. Don't take yet another concession for no reason whatsoever.

If you want to go to AC, you'll get there soon enough regardless of your path. TS and SW know this as well, which is why they're trying to retain and make life as desirable as they can for their groups.

Within 5 years, he who has the pilots, wins.