Think carefully before you make your next move

Discuss topics relating to Jazz Aviation LP.

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negative.g
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by negative.g » Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:45 am

Thanks Rowdy I stand corrected.

Why does Jazz want it signed till 2035 then if they are just going to renegotiate sooner? Why not 5 years?
There is no guarantee Tommy Boy taught me that back in the 90's. If only him and Richard could come and take over the Jazz pilots would be far better off.
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nogo
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by nogo » Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:00 pm

The yes voters are playing right into Calin Rovinescu's game. Listen to the man himself. Quotes from Calin:

"Fear paralyzes. Absolute fear paralyzes absolutely."
"Avoiding mediocrity involves taking some risk."
"...be unreasonable in your expectations..."
Calin Rovinescu

Source:
University of Ottawa, out of a speech he gave to graduates from faculty of law.

Anyone that believes AC will have 17 years of massive hiring must be incredibly naive in my opinion. To throw the entire industry under the bus for something that AC may go back on their word, and they have in the past and they will again. And then how are you going to file a grievance against them? You can only grieve your own employer. ALPA already admitted to us in our face at the YUL road show that the bargaining process is corrupt and vote yes or else. No way in 9 lives are they going to grieve AC for you and get in a 3 way legal battle when Air Canada fails to deliver on their "promises". To me they have already showed me that they can't do anything for us. AC has another contract with better numbers all drawn out. The one they want us to actually vote yes on. This is just the Art of the Deal; propose something so outrageous that your adversary will accept the mediocre offer #2 which is actually the mediocre offer they were hoping you would sign. The only offer I would sign is offer #3, which is also drawn up. In 2025, AC has lot of union contracts within AC to re-negotiate. It will be an interesting year, and the management will be different by then.

Air Georgian is a failed experiment, they won't be propped up anymore, or else the new planes would have already been there. Air Georgian is too much of a liability for Air Canada. It's a multi-billion dollar global business. The risk assessment for AC came out that they (Air Georgian) have the highest potential of putting an airplane in the ground in the entire Air Canada network, with the Air Canada colors on the tail. Not the type of Global News Air Canada want to make. Who is left? Sky Regional?... Who are their investors? Who payed to prop up that company? Who paid for and gave them the Airplanes? Oh ya.. Air Canada. So we'll just go to Sky Regional with our DOH if their was any weight to the threats we are presently subjected to. Us Pilots have a lot more WEIGHT and CLOUT then we are giving ourselves credit for. WE have a massive upper hand, and Calin Rovinescu is not going to chop our hands off, he is trying to make us chop our own hands off! He is a genius, and is a master at his craft. His craft, instilling doubt and fear! Doubt. Think about that word for a little moment and think about Calin's education. He is a Lawyer by education and by trade, and a very good one and do you know how Lawyers win incredibly difficult cases in Criminal Law? By instilling just enough doubt, because the burden of proof is beyond any reasonable doubt.

About absorbing the Air Georgian Pilots with DOH. If ALPA is telling us that AC taking their flying away gives them the right to have a lateral transfer to JAZZ, then if and when AC takes our flying away from us (common employer) they owe us a job with a lateral transfer. If ALPA disagrees with that, start asking questions about who they are really working for, because "the whole bargaining process is corrupt." Forgot which rep said it at the road show, but they have it on video.
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Al Borlin
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by Al Borlin » Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:18 pm

I can't imagine and better time in recent history to negotiate. Even the most pessimistic, demoralized defeatist can see there is a massive upside looming on the industry. Don't sell the farm (again) because you think it's going to change flow to AC. AC is dependent on Jazz delivering pilots regardless of the outcome. The carrot chasing doesn't change when you get to AC either. 2-4 years of being a senior widebody captain isn't worth making concessions for throughout your entire career. I am not at jazz, so this is easy for me to say, but I think you should recognize your worth, because from my vantage point I think the largest regional group in the country is going to be extremely valuable in the coming decade. Goodluck!
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ikarus
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by ikarus » Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:38 pm

DanWEC wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:53 am


Just remember guys, WHY does this shortage exist in the first place? Because of endless concessions, negotiations, and CARROTS.

Think about why there would be signing bonus for such a deal? Dont we all "bribe" our kids to do something they don't want to do?

There are also just 2 express carriers now Jazz and Sky, both under ALPA now. Sky is about to begin tabling negotiations for their first contract, and a crappy precedent set by Jazz would severely weaken their position to increase wages. Think about the big picture guys!
Very true!

But sadly we are just a heard of ignorant and egoistic people who can't see far ahead. I know a bunch of senior guys will vote yes, because it's a safe bet, they're on the way out soon. The middle seniority who have given up on AC are desperate to get off the crappy "prop" and want to be back on the mighty CRJ and the bottom junior guys don't give a crap about staying at Jazz (rightly so, after getting sold out for the second time since 2015) so all they care is a flow through to AC....and that leaves the minority of guys who are not willing to sell them selves short or others for whopping 2% + $1300 (before tax)..... :roll:

And then wonder how did we get here .....well just look at the mirror guys.
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dh89
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by dh89 » Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:10 pm

I would like to remind my fellow peers that you are in as good a position to negotiate for better terms as ever. We in Canada have become the rock bottom of the industry when it comes to compensation. When the AC directors and board decide to eliminate one carrier’s contract and give the fleet to chorus, along with taking a 10% stake in the company, it is obvious that they want the company to growth. Otherwise they wouldnt do it. The whole talk of eliminating jazz is nothing but fear tactics to lock us up to a crap contract for 17 years. Who knows what the cost of living will be during that time. Sure has increased by more than the 2%!
I really hope everyone votes with the thought of not just themselves; as well as those behind them. Not all of us have ambitions of going to mainline. There is a massive pilot shortage and there is no way that another carrier can hire enough pilots to cover our 700+ flights a day. If anything they would have to hire former jazz guys/gals. I also hope we can have the georgian pilots join us without any harm to our seniority while still providing a good workplace for them after working for such an operator.
When we crunch the numbers, pilot wages amount to much less than 1% of an airline’s bill. We need a piece of the pie.
As for the flowthrough for AC, the numbers will be the same as the ratio is already there atm going into air canada.
Just my 2 cents. I hope everyone gets what they want, you’re all worth your weight and skills.
:mrgreen:
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proper
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by proper » Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:25 pm

Says the 4 post wonder...
:roll: :roll: :roll:
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Malfunction
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by Malfunction » Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:40 pm

https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/c ... 81020.html

300 million investment into chorus.
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gonnabeapilot
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by gonnabeapilot » Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:07 am

Just a reminder for the Jazz guys/gals.... By 2025 every single major airline in the country with the exception of Air Canada will have gone through a round of collective bargaining which means almost every single major pilot group will have had the opportunity to push the bar higher before you have to negotiate your next deal

You may be the most expensive CPA carrier at the moment but AC has still come knocking at your door. Ask yourself why? Could it be that AC recognizes that you get what you pay for? So imagine the gains that may be possible for you after every other airline has had the chance to raise the bar. These improved working conditions will have an impact on the cost structure of your CPA competitors too, closing the cost gap when AC weighs its options.

On the other hand if you vote yes to this deal you have just handicapped almost every single pilot group in their next round of bargaining, and the round after that and the round after that. 17 years worth of bargaining!! 2% becomes the de-facto increase because you folks will have locked that in. The starting wage and top wage at a regional carrier will stagnate because you folks will have locked that in. The starting F/O and Capt narrowbody mainline wages will also be locked in because those wages have always been related to what is paid at the regionals. In short, the possible gains of Canadian pilots become limited across the industry because of this deal. (For the ACPA folks in the audience, just wait until the company comes knocking about CSeries wages after this deal is signed).

People on here gave Westjetters and the pilots that went to Swoop a hard time but I would argue saying yes to this deal is far worse for Canadian aviation than what went on with Swoop. At least the Westjet folks were willing to go to the mat to try and fight it.

You're about to sign a 17 year contract out of fear or because AC has dangled the guaranteed flow carrot. I haven't heard of a single organized labour group in any industry, in any country in the world signing a 17 year deal. If you're the first in the world to do something you are either a trailblazing innovator or you're committing an act that is so dumb nobody else has even dared to attempt it. I know where I place this TA. We'll see if time proves me right.
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blueskiessabove
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by blueskiessabove » Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:27 am

47north wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:27 am
blueskiessabove wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:34 am
To all my fellow aviators out there, think twice about voting yes. If you do you should be ashamed of yourself, this is the reason why the industry is so shitty in Canada and isn't getting better. Stop letting the fear mongering tactics get to you. Jazz isn't going anywhere and will be around for a long time to come. For the people just thinking about them selves to go to AC... think about the next generation behind you. The people that think about them selves shouldn't even be allowed to have a vote, there is a much bigger plot at play and that's how long can AC keep shitting on everyone.
What is shameful is that you blueskiesabove, as an LEC/MEC member, is telling Jazz pilots that they should be ashamed of voting the way they want.

Let me guess - Are you are one of the rogue members that tried to instigate a coup recently and now you are pissed that didn't succeed and are trying to push your own political agenda?

You tell others to 'stop letting fear mongering tactics get to you', yet you are doing the exactly the same thing to push forward your own agenda. You should know full well that we will not be locked into the same conditions for the full length of the TA. If we as pilots are such a finite resource as you say, the company will be back to sweeten the pot along the way - as they have with this MOS well in advance of the end of the current TA and as had been the case with US regionals.

Meanwhile the rest of the MEC has taken the rational approach that is is better to secure the work and a concrete flow to AC for all those that wish to take that path.

For the record I am not an ALPA officer, just a member who thinks that an MEC member should not be posting anonymously on this form. I hope other members recognize what your true agenda is here.

BTW my vote is an unconditional YES!
Sounds like ones own self motive, seeing big new shinny planes, pml which isn't a guarantee and hoping all works out for the best. Let me know if AC says no and your stuck in a contract that's shit for 17years. Learn from the past did you not see how 2015 played out....................... no further remarks
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blueskiessabove
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by blueskiessabove » Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:30 am

gonnabeapilot wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:07 am
Just a reminder for the Jazz guys/gals.... By 2025 every single major airline in the country with the exception of Air Canada will have gone through a round of collective bargaining which means almost every single major pilot group will have had the opportunity to push the bar higher before you have to negotiate your next deal

You may be the most expensive CPA carrier at the moment but AC has still come knocking at your door. Ask yourself why? Could it be that AC recognizes that you get what you pay for? So imagine the gains that may be possible for you after every other airline has had the chance to raise the bar. These improved working conditions will have an impact on the cost structure of your CPA competitors too, closing the cost gap when AC weighs its options.

On the other hand if you vote yes to this deal you have just handicapped almost every single pilot group in their next round of bargaining, and the round after that and the round after that. 17 years worth of bargaining!! 2% becomes the de-facto increase because you folks will have locked that in. The starting wage and top wage at a regional carrier will stagnate because you folks will have locked that in. The starting F/O and Capt narrowbody mainline wages will also be locked in because those wages have always been related to what is paid at the regionals. In short, the possible gains of Canadian pilots become limited across the industry because of this deal. (For the ACPA folks in the audience, just wait until the company comes knocking about CSeries wages after this deal is signed).

People on here gave Westjetters and the pilots that went to Swoop a hard time but I would argue saying yes to this deal is far worse for Canadian aviation than what went on with Swoop. At least the Westjet folks were willing to go to the mat to try and fight it.

You're about to sign a 17 year contract out of fear or because AC has dangled the guaranteed flow carrot. I haven't heard of a single organized labour group in any industry, in any country in the world signing a 17 year deal. If you're the first in the world to do something you are either a trailblazing innovator or you're committing an act that is so dumb nobody else has even dared to attempt it. I know where I place this TA. We'll see if time proves me right.
WELL SAID :smt041 :smt041 :smt041 :smt041 :smt041 :smt041 :smt041 :smt041 :smt041 :smt041 :smt041
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blueskiessabove
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by blueskiessabove » Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:33 am

:smt041 :smt041
dh89 wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:10 pm
I would like to remind my fellow peers that you are in as good a position to negotiate for better terms as ever. We in Canada have become the rock bottom of the industry when it comes to compensation. When the AC directors and board decide to eliminate one carrier’s contract and give the fleet to chorus, along with taking a 10% stake in the company, it is obvious that they want the company to growth. Otherwise they wouldnt do it. The whole talk of eliminating jazz is nothing but fear tactics to lock us up to a crap contract for 17 years. Who knows what the cost of living will be during that time. Sure has increased by more than the 2%!
I really hope everyone votes with the thought of not just themselves; as well as those behind them. Not all of us have ambitions of going to mainline. There is a massive pilot shortage and there is no way that another carrier can hire enough pilots to cover our 700+ flights a day. If anything they would have to hire former jazz guys/gals. I also hope we can have the georgian pilots join us without any harm to our seniority while still providing a good workplace for them after working for such an operator.
When we crunch the numbers, pilot wages amount to much less than 1% of an airline’s bill. We need a piece of the pie.
As for the flowthrough for AC, the numbers will be the same as the ratio is already there atm going into air canada.
Just my 2 cents. I hope everyone gets what they want, you’re all worth your weight and skills.
:mrgreen:
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Well said once again :smt041 :smt041 :smt041
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Chevy1Ton
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by Chevy1Ton » Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:03 am

47north wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:27 am
blueskiessabove wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:34 am
To all my fellow aviators out there, think twice about voting yes. If you do you should be ashamed of yourself, this is the reason why the industry is so shitty in Canada and isn't getting better. Stop letting the fear mongering tactics get to you. Jazz isn't going anywhere and will be around for a long time to come. For the people just thinking about them selves to go to AC... think about the next generation behind you. The people that think about them selves shouldn't even be allowed to have a vote, there is a much bigger plot at play and that's how long can AC keep shitting on everyone.
What is shameful is that you blueskiesabove, as an LEC/MEC member, is telling Jazz pilots that they should be ashamed of voting the way they want.

Let me guess - Are you are one of the rogue members that tried to instigate a coup recently and now you are pissed that didn't succeed and are trying to push your own political agenda?

You tell others to 'stop letting fear mongering tactics get to you', yet you are doing the exactly the same thing to push forward your own agenda. You should know full well that we will not be locked into the same conditions for the full length of the TA. If we as pilots are such a finite resource as you say, the company will be back to sweeten the pot along the way - as they have with this MOS well in advance of the end of the current TA and as had been the case with US regionals.

Meanwhile the rest of the MEC has taken the rational approach that is is better to secure the work and a concrete flow to AC for all those that wish to take that path.

For the record I am not an ALPA officer, just a member who thinks that an MEC member should not be posting anonymously on this form. I hope other members recognize what your true agenda is here.

BTW my vote is an unconditional YES!
47north,
Do you ever think that blueskiessabove has a point?? The word's may not be the best used by that individual, but it does make sense.

If the MEC Negotiating Committee can't even get us something that's free like J Class on our DH, which cost nothing to AC do you think there doing there best negotiating for our wages??? I mean come on man. When you buy a house do you pay the highest price NOOOO you negotiate!!!!!!!!!!!(Same Principal) Your opinion is important but so is every pilot behind us. Think if you were at the shit end of the stick.
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blueskiessabove
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by blueskiessabove » Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:01 am

47north wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:27 am
blueskiessabove wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:34 am
To all my fellow aviators out there, think twice about voting yes. If you do you should be ashamed of yourself, this is the reason why the industry is so shitty in Canada and isn't getting better. Stop letting the fear mongering tactics get to you. Jazz isn't going anywhere and will be around for a long time to come. For the people just thinking about them selves to go to AC... think about the next generation behind you. The people that think about them selves shouldn't even be allowed to have a vote, there is a much bigger plot at play and that's how long can AC keep shitting on everyone.
What is shameful is that you blueskiesabove, as an LEC/MEC member, is telling Jazz pilots that they should be ashamed of voting the way they want.

Let me guess - Are you are one of the rogue members that tried to instigate a coup recently and now you are pissed that didn't succeed and are trying to push your own political agenda?

You tell others to 'stop letting fear mongering tactics get to you', yet you are doing the exactly the same thing to push forward your own agenda. You should know full well that we will not be locked into the same conditions for the full length of the TA. If we as pilots are such a finite resource as you say, the company will be back to sweeten the pot along the way - as they have with this MOS well in advance of the end of the current TA and as had been the case with US regionals.

Meanwhile the rest of the MEC has taken the rational approach that is is better to secure the work and a concrete flow to AC for all those that wish to take that path.

For the record I am not an ALPA officer, just a member who thinks that an MEC member should not be posting anonymously on this form. I hope other members recognize what your true agenda is here.

BTW my vote is an unconditional YES!

I have zero tactics f'''''' up for yourself and see where it gets you.
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proper
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by proper » Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:47 am

Ok.... So.... That's gratuitous....

Are you on the MEC?
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pa31ho
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by pa31ho » Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:47 am

All I can say is. Whether the vote passes or not, I truly hate my profession and wish I had taken my potential and done something else with my life.

To all the young people out there, I read these forums 10 years ago, saw the negativity and discounted it because I wanted to live my dream. Now that dream is dead, and I think my future will only become bleaker. I truely hope you heed these words and do something, anything else with your life. But I doubt you will and I feel sorry for you when you look back in ten years and feel the same regrets I do.
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47north
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by 47north » Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:53 am

blueskiessabove wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:01 am

I have zero tactics f'''''' up for yourself and see where it gets you.
To quote you blueskiessabove, it is 'sad sad' that a member of our MEC is acting in such a juvenile manner on a public forum. It is unbecoming and a poor reflection on our pilot group. You should resign.

With this behavior we are supposed to believe that you were one of the sober second thoughts in the room on this MOS? Hmm, I think I will stick with the rest of the MEC and the negotiating committee on this one.

BTW I am neither very senior nor junior and interested in the PML. And I am still sticking around and my vote is still a yes.
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DanWEC
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by DanWEC » Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:56 am

47north wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:53 am
BTW I am neither very senior nor junior and interested in the PML. And I am still sticking around and my vote is still a yes.
The PML promise is just a redundant tactic.
You would go to AC regardless. They need too many people. A 2 year good record at an Express carrier is the highest scoring single element on the matrix now outside of total time.
So, given that you can basically eliminate that as an improvement, what are you left with?
Vote how you see fit, but think about how it will affect our industry.

Edit- I may have misread your sentence, I'm not sure if you're interested in the PML or not. Regardless I'll maintain my comment in generality.
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by LtDan » Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:52 pm

Malfunction wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:40 pm
https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/c ... 81020.html

300 million investment into chorus.
It’s a line of credit... not an investment. For the new RJ leases to AC probably.
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blueskiessabove
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by blueskiessabove » Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:15 pm

blueskiessabove wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:01 am
47north wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:27 am
blueskiessabove wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:34 am
To all my fellow aviators out there, think twice about voting yes. If you do you should be ashamed of yourself, this is the reason why the industry is so shitty in Canada and isn't getting better. Stop letting the fear mongering tactics get to you. Jazz isn't going anywhere and will be around for a long time to come. For the people just thinking about them selves to go to AC... think about the next generation behind you. The people that think about them selves shouldn't even be allowed to have a vote, there is a much bigger plot at play and that's how long can AC keep shitting on everyone.
What is shameful is that you blueskiesabove, as an LEC/MEC member, is telling Jazz pilots that they should be ashamed of voting the way they want.

I'm just another FO looking to represent our future in this industry and when people like 47north throw all of us under the bus it looks bad on our profession. I'm not an MEC and will never have any inclantion to do so. But when people think this contract is right I will bark back :goodman: :goodman: :goodman: :goodman: :goodman: :goodman:


Let me guess - Are you are one of the rogue members that tried to instigate a coup recently and now you are pissed that didn't succeed and are trying to push your own political agenda?

You tell others to 'stop letting fear mongering tactics get to you', yet you are doing the exactly the same thing to push forward your own agenda. You should know full well that we will not be locked into the same conditions for the full length of the TA. If we as pilots are such a finite resource as you say, the company will be back to sweeten the pot along the way - as they have with this MOS well in advance of the end of the current TA and as had been the case with US regionals.

Meanwhile the rest of the MEC has taken the rational approach that is is better to secure the work and a concrete flow to AC for all those that wish to take that path.

For the record I am not an ALPA officer, just a member who thinks that an MEC member should not be posting anonymously on this form. I hope other members recognize what your true agenda is here.

BTW my vote is an unconditional YES!

I have zero tactics f'''''' up for yourself and see where it gets you.
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47north
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by 47north » Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:55 pm

Chevy1Ton wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:03 am

47north,
Do you ever think that blueskiessabove has a point?? The word's may not be the best used by that individual, but it does make sense.

If the MEC Negotiating Committee can't even get us something that's free like J Class on our DH, which cost nothing to AC do you think there doing there best negotiating for our wages??? I mean come on man. When you buy a house do you pay the highest price NOOOO you negotiate!!!!!!!!!!!(Same Principal) Your opinion is important but so is every pilot behind us. Think if you were at the shit end of the stick.
Yes I see the point, but I don't agree with the strategy. We need to secure the work and the rest will follow. This has been the case in the US. Companies are increasing compensation to attract the talent, not out of the goodness of their hearts. Basic supply and demand and it will happen here if the long awaited pilot shortage materializes,which I believe it is. However at the moment we are still filling the seats and we are not quite as desperate as they are south of the border yet. It's coming though. And when it does, the company will be throwing money at the problem. Just like they have with copious amounts of OT in the past. Just like the US carriers are doing now.

We do stand the risk that the work moves to the other express carriers and we are left with the scraps. Yes there will be jobs to be had, but I would far rather work under our contract than the works rules at Georgian or Sky. No offence to those groups, but overall they are not even close.

As far as negotiating, this has been going on for months and I am am certain this MOS is not the first reiteration. Every item has a cost like J class as an example. This is not a zero cost to AC.
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Diadem
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by Diadem » Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:48 pm

47north wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:55 pm
We do stand the risk that the work moves to the other express carriers and we are left with the scraps. Yes there will be jobs to be had, but I would far rather work under our contract than the works rules at Georgian or Sky. No offence to those groups, but overall they are not even close.
And yet, AC has gone scurrying back to Jazz, practically demanding they take the flying back from GGN because the latter has proven incapable of meeting AC's service standards. This whole proposal is basically AC admitting that only Jazz is able to handle the flying reliably; it's not even being used as a bargaining chip for SR in their upcoming negotiations. They didn't put it out for tender or anything, they just went straight to Jazz. This is basically AC management going to Jazz management and begging and pleading for them to take over from GGN, then trying to play it cool when presenting the offer to the pilots: "We'd like you to do the flying, but whatever, take it or leave it. We'll even offer you a few more cents per hour and basically the same PML as you have now because we're so generous, but, like, there are sooo many other pilots out there who would do this work for less than what we're offering." Okay, then why didn't you offer it to them?
Call their bluff.
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by V1Vr » Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:58 pm

Diadem wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:48 pm
47north wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:55 pm
We do stand the risk that the work moves to the other express carriers and we are left with the scraps. Yes there will be jobs to be had, but I would far rather work under our contract than the works rules at Georgian or Sky. No offence to those groups, but overall they are not even close.
And yet, AC has gone scurrying back to Jazz, practically demanding they take the flying back from GGN because the latter has proven incapable of meeting AC's service standards. This whole proposal is basically AC admitting that only Jazz is able to handle the flying reliably; it's not even being used as a bargaining chip for SR in their upcoming negotiations. They didn't put it out for tender or anything, they just went straight to Jazz. This is basically AC management going to Jazz management and begging and pleading for them to take over from GGN, then trying to play it cool when presenting the offer to the pilots: "We'd like you to do the flying, but whatever, take it or leave it. We'll even offer you a few more cents per hour and basically the same PML as you have now because we're so generous, but, like, there are sooo many other pilots out there who would do this work for less than what we're offering." Okay, then why didn't you offer it to them?
Call their bluff.
Pal, sounds like you need to go search out some info. That's not at all how it went down from what they said at the road show. That being said I'm sure AC is happy to get rid of GGN in this process.
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truedude
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by truedude » Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:12 pm

V1Vr wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:58 pm
Diadem wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:48 pm
47north wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:55 pm
We do stand the risk that the work moves to the other express carriers and we are left with the scraps. Yes there will be jobs to be had, but I would far rather work under our contract than the works rules at Georgian or Sky. No offence to those groups, but overall they are not even close.
And yet, AC has gone scurrying back to Jazz, practically demanding they take the flying back from GGN because the latter has proven incapable of meeting AC's service standards. This whole proposal is basically AC admitting that only Jazz is able to handle the flying reliably; it's not even being used as a bargaining chip for SR in their upcoming negotiations. They didn't put it out for tender or anything, they just went straight to Jazz. This is basically AC management going to Jazz management and begging and pleading for them to take over from GGN, then trying to play it cool when presenting the offer to the pilots: "We'd like you to do the flying, but whatever, take it or leave it. We'll even offer you a few more cents per hour and basically the same PML as you have now because we're so generous, but, like, there are sooo many other pilots out there who would do this work for less than what we're offering." Okay, then why didn't you offer it to them?
Call their bluff.
Pal, sounds like you need to go search out some info. That's not at all how it went down from what they said at the road show. That being said I'm sure AC is happy to get rid of GGN in this process.
This is purely speculation, but something to think about...

You are Jazz and want to negitate with your pilots about extending their contract for an absurd amount of years at the cheapest wages possible... If you were in charge, would you tell them that Air Canada came to us (not saying they did) or would you tell them that Jazz went to Air Canada in a panic to secure flying before they parted out more of the regional flying to GGN. Which version do you think would get you closer to you desired outcome sooner?
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V1Vr
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by V1Vr » Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:14 pm

truedude wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:12 pm
V1Vr wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:58 pm
Diadem wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:48 pm

And yet, AC has gone scurrying back to Jazz, practically demanding they take the flying back from GGN because the latter has proven incapable of meeting AC's service standards. This whole proposal is basically AC admitting that only Jazz is able to handle the flying reliably; it's not even being used as a bargaining chip for SR in their upcoming negotiations. They didn't put it out for tender or anything, they just went straight to Jazz. This is basically AC management going to Jazz management and begging and pleading for them to take over from GGN, then trying to play it cool when presenting the offer to the pilots: "We'd like you to do the flying, but whatever, take it or leave it. We'll even offer you a few more cents per hour and basically the same PML as you have now because we're so generous, but, like, there are sooo many other pilots out there who would do this work for less than what we're offering." Okay, then why didn't you offer it to them?
Call their bluff.
Pal, sounds like you need to go search out some info. That's not at all how it went down from what they said at the road show. That being said I'm sure AC is happy to get rid of GGN in this process.
This is purely speculation, but something to think about...

You are Jazz and want to negitate with your pilots about extending their contract for an absurd amount of years at the cheapest wages possible... If you were in charge, would you tell them that Air Canada came to us (not saying they did) or would you tell them that Jazz went to Air Canada in a panic to secure flying before they parted out more of the regional flying to GGN. Which version do you think would get you closer to you desired outcome sooner?
You're not wrong. I'm just saying what the union executive said, I don't have any reason to think they're lying. Now if the company lied to them, who knows.
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truedude
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by truedude » Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:19 pm

V1Vr wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:14 pm
truedude wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:12 pm
V1Vr wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:58 pm


Pal, sounds like you need to go search out some info. That's not at all how it went down from what they said at the road show. That being said I'm sure AC is happy to get rid of GGN in this process.
This is purely speculation, but something to think about...

You are Jazz and want to negitate with your pilots about extending their contract for an absurd amount of years at the cheapest wages possible... If you were in charge, would you tell them that Air Canada came to us (not saying they did) or would you tell them that Jazz went to Air Canada in a panic to secure flying before they parted out more of the regional flying to GGN. Which version do you think would get you closer to you desired outcome sooner?
You're not wrong. I'm just saying what the union executive said, I don't have any reason to think they're lying. Now if the company lied to them, who knows.
Oh, I 100% trust our union. But I know if I was negotiating for the company, I would never in a million years tell the pilots that Air Canada came to us. And if I was Air Canada, I would threaten on the pain of death that that best never be revealed and to sell it the other way around.
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