Will it pass?

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Will the TA pass?

Yes over 80%
4
7%
Yes over 60%
21
36%
Yes over 50%
24
41%
No
10
17%
 
Total votes: 59

V1Vr
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Will it pass?

Post by V1Vr » Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:40 pm

A new poll, not your personal vote but your guess if you think it will pass?
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Inverted2
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Re: Will it pass?

Post by Inverted2 » Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:53 am

I think it will pass but with a narrow margin.
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prop2jet
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Re: Will it pass?

Post by prop2jet » Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:37 am

I suspect this deal will pass but unlike previous TA votes it is not going to be a slam dunk. There has been in my opinion a sense of urgency in getting the message out, especially to the "B Scale" (or as our MEC prefers to say, post 2015) pilots about the consequences of not voting yes. The topic has been beaten to death so I won't go there...

Should the deal pass we will have set a precedent for having the longest Collective Agreement perhaps creating a problem for others down the road, something our union does not seem to think matters much.

Should the deal not pass we move on.

Bottom line, whatever your choice, just cast a vote but do not sit on the fence and do nothing.
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JoeyBarton
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Re: Will it pass?

Post by JoeyBarton » Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:45 am

When is the vote?
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av8ts
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Re: Will it pass?

Post by av8ts » Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:38 am

It’s open now. Closes Jan 31. Hopefully we’ll all know on Feb 1
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prop2jet
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Re: Will it pass?

Post by prop2jet » Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:20 am

Vote closes Jan 31 at 12:00 ET. Expect to hear the result later in the day, certainly after the markets have closed. I am certain you will know the result before you go to bed that night.
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Re: Will it pass?

Post by HansDietrich » Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:19 pm

Three things here:
1. My opinion should not matter, because I don't work for Jazz anymore. With that being said, I worked there a bit and know a few things about the "good" and the "bad".

2. I believe it will pass. Why?
a). Let's be realistic. 95% of the new hires at Jazz will want to go to Air Canada. That percentage will decrease a bit, as some will actually enjoy flying "regionals". In the end, I believe a min of 80% of Jazz pilot will want to get a job with AC Mainline.
b). Pilots are easily scared, and ALPA is doing a fine job at scaring them. One would assume ALPA is looking out for Jazz pilots, but in fact they are looking out for their own personal interest.
c). Pilots think very short term
d). Canadians in general love to play it safe. It's not a culture that is inclined to take risks. They'd paint anything "neutral" not to offend anyone...

3. After speaking with many Canadian born and raised pilots, most of them haven't the slightest clue of how the rest of the (aviation) world works. They hear these rumors from the Middle East, Asia or Europe, about the "big bad companies" that treat their pilots like slaves... and all the sudden are thankful the "Canadian carriers treat them right" HINT: THEY DON'T. CANADIAN PILOTS ARE THE WORST PAID PILOTS IN THE WORLD. PERIOD! (Taking into account the education, experience, time to become a pilot, etc, compensation and of course THE COST OF LIVING in this absurdly expensive country. )

It's absurd to think that, although we are some of the most skilled pilots in the world, we accept to be compensated so little.
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Last edited by HansDietrich on Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
Das ist mir wurst...

V1Vr
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Re: Will it pass?

Post by V1Vr » Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:25 pm

HansDietrich wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:19 pm
Three things here:
1. My opinion should not matter, because I don't work for Jazz anymore. With that being said, I worked there a bit and know a few things about the "good" and the "bad".

2. I believe if will pass. Why?
a). Let's be realistic. 95% of the new hires at Jazz will want to go to Air Canada. That percentage will decrease a bit, as some will actually enjoy flying "regionals". In the end, I believe a min of 80% of Jazz pilot will want to get a job with AC Mainline.
b). Pilots are easily scared, and ALPA is doing a fine job at scaring them. One would assume ALPA is looking out for Jazz pilots, but in fact they are looking out for their own personal interest.
c). Pilots think very short term
d). Canadians in general love to play it safe. It's not a culture that is inclined to take risks. They'd paint anything "neutral" not to offend anyone...

3. After speaking with many Canadian born and raised pilots, most of them haven't the slightest clue of how the rest of the (aviation) world works. They hear these rumors from the Middle East, Asia or Europe, about the "big bad companies" that treat their pilots like slaves... and all the sudden are thankful the "Canadian carriers treat them right" HINT: THEY DON'T. CANADIAN PILOTS ARE THE WORST PAID PILOTS IN THE WORLD. PERIOD! (Taking into account the education, experience, time to become a pilot, etc, compensation and of course THE COST OF LIVING in this absurdly expensive country. )

It's absurd to think that, although we are some of the most skilled pilots in the world, we accept to be compensated so little.
I work 13 days a month, make $100k right now and don't have a degree. I'd say I'm doing just fine and enjoy my life in Canada. Close to friends and family. I'll take another 17 years of that, vs uncertainty especially in aviation.
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HansDietrich
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Re: Will it pass?

Post by HansDietrich » Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:31 pm

V1Vr wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:25 pm
I work 13 days a month, make $100k right now and don't have a degree. I'd say I'm doing just fine and enjoy my life in Canada. Close to friends and family. I'll take another 17 years of that, vs uncertainty especially in aviation.
Honestly, who am I to argue about what is good and what is not? After all, based on your comment I'd say you're pretty happy. Good for you.

I see it a little different. I'd ask these questions first:
1. How many years did it take to reach this stage?
2. Are you a captain or first officer?
3. How does your position compare to its counterparts around the world?

It's hard to put a price on family / friends. That's probably the only factor here that can't be discounted.
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V1Vr
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Re: Will it pass?

Post by V1Vr » Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:33 pm

HansDietrich wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:31 pm
V1Vr wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:25 pm
I work 13 days a month, make $100k right now and don't have a degree. I'd say I'm doing just fine and enjoy my life in Canada. Close to friends and family. I'll take another 17 years of that, vs uncertainty especially in aviation.
Honestly, who am I to argue about what is good and what is not? After all, based on your comment I'd say you're pretty happy. Good for you.

I see it a little different. I'd ask these questions first:
1. How many years did it take to reach this stage?
2. Are you a captain or first officer?
3. How does your position compare to its counterparts around the world?

It's hard to put a price on family / friends. That's probably the only factor here that can't be discounted.
Yeah I agree, to each their own. I've been lucky with a fast progression in this industry unlike many others. But I try to look for the good in things, and for me.. personally this contract is a good thing.
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CanadianEh
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Re: Will it pass?

Post by CanadianEh » Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:53 am

V1Vr wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:33 pm
HansDietrich wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:31 pm
V1Vr wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:25 pm
I work 13 days a month, make $100k right now and don't have a degree. I'd say I'm doing just fine and enjoy my life in Canada. Close to friends and family. I'll take another 17 years of that, vs uncertainty especially in aviation.
Honestly, who am I to argue about what is good and what is not? After all, based on your comment I'd say you're pretty happy. Good for you.

I see it a little different. I'd ask these questions first:
1. How many years did it take to reach this stage?
2. Are you a captain or first officer?
3. How does your position compare to its counterparts around the world?

It's hard to put a price on family / friends. That's probably the only factor here that can't be discounted.
Yeah I agree, to each their own. I've been lucky with a fast progression in this industry unlike many others. But I try to look for the good in things, and for me.. personally this contract is a good thing.
This is the mentality that leads to the continued downward spiral in our industry in Canada. We gotta stop thinking about one off personal gains and think about the greater good.
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mbav8r
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Re: Will it pass?

Post by mbav8r » Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:08 am

CanadianEh wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:53 am
[quote=V1Vr post_id=<a href="tel:1067640">1067640</a> time=<a href="tel:1548909229">1548909229</a> user_id=67253]
[quote=HansDietrich post_id=<a href="tel:1067639">1067639</a> time=<a href="tel:1548909088">1548909088</a> user_id=48700]
[quote=V1Vr post_id=<a href="tel:1067637">1067637</a> time=<a href="tel:1548908740">1548908740</a> user_id=67253]
I work 13 days a month, make $100k right now and don't have a degree. I'd say I'm doing just fine and enjoy my life in Canada. Close to friends and family. I'll take another 17 years of that, vs uncertainty especially in aviation.
Honestly, who am I to argue about what is good and what is not? After all, based on your comment I'd say you're pretty happy. Good for you.

I see it a little different. I'd ask these questions first:
1. How many years did it take to reach this stage?
2. Are you a captain or first officer?
3. How does your position compare to its counterparts around the world?

It's hard to put a price on family / friends. That's probably the only factor here that can't be discounted.
[/quote]

Yeah I agree, to each their own. I've been lucky with a fast progression in this industry unlike many others. But I try to look for the good in things, and for me.. personally this contract is a good thing.
[/quote]

This is the mentality that leads to the continued downward spiral in our industry in Canada. We gotta stop thinking about one off personal gains and think about the greater good.
[/quote]
A few observations, a lot of the naysayers on here like to point to the U.S as though they are where we should be, what short memories we have, a few years ago they were leading the race to the bottom and Encore was the first Canadian regional to begin the race here. When they started their wages were almost exactly the same as Horizon, except that we pay far more taxes for the same wage.
What changed, they can’t hire 250 hour wonders, offence intended, to sit right seat of a 705 category aircraft, now they are all competing for a short supply of 1500 hour(min) pilots. We seem to have an endless supply of graduates who are more than ecstatic to accept the wages on offer, although quick to complain shortly there after. Hint, if you stop accepting the wage, it will go up.
Next, when we voted to strike in 2010, we were the only regional feed allowed to work for AC, by scope however not our scope as we learned shortly after that, an important distinction. Now, here we are, one of three competing for the work hoping we don’t suffer a fate of starting over.
Fear or not, there is no such thing as too big to fail, lessons of the past. Does anyone think the GGN pilots thought, with a 10 year CPA, they would be sitting on the sidelines waiting for word on what the Jazz pilots decided of their fate. Could that be us, you’d have to be completely ignorant to think not.
A lot of missing pieces to the story but one piece, AC secured 5 900’s and the GGN pilots could likely confirm for you, it was a carrot being dangled in front of them to accept whatever lowball offer they had. Other word is, Jazz made a preemptive move to make a deal for those CRJs, last spring, now, here we are.
If we turn this down, AC will simple move to the next player, again lessons o the past.
Does this 17 year deal set a precedent, absolutely, any CPA structured airline in Canada will likely feel the effect. SR, better watch out, they’re coming for you(tongue in cheek)
Last thing, WE DON’T OWN THE WORK!
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rudder
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Re: Will it pass?

Post by rudder » Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:27 am

Comparisons to US pay scales?

Absent the below standard Jazz FO pay scales prior to year 5 (owing to the dynamics described above), Jazz in fact has and will continue to have the highest pay scales flying tier 2 aircraft in North America (on a non-currency adjusted basis).

None of the other Canadian pilot pay scales for mainline or cargo aircraft come even close to current US pay rates. And the AC pilots in particular are locked in to 2% increases until 2025 inclusive.

The Jazz pilots have nothing to be embarrassed about. Let’s see how this pay rate comparison to US peers looks after 2025. The reality is that the size of the Express overall fleet is trending towards contraction. So any surviving Express carriers are fighting for a share of a shrinking pie. To do so successfully with the highest final pay rates (CA and FO) for 75 seat aircraft in North America is a commendable result.
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Re: Will it pass?

Post by KenoraPilot » Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:12 pm

92% participation
72% in favour of the MOS
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