TA Passed.

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flashheart
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Re: TA Passed.

Post by flashheart »

mbav8r wrote: Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:21 pm
flashheart wrote: Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:05 pm Rowdy - is on the right track

The Jazz & "Canada is the best" koolaid is strong here.

I would leave this 99% arctic tundra in a heart beat for what they have down there. Better pay & way more buying power with the money you have.

But it's "apple and oranges". So no need to look...umm...Koolaid
Umm, so go, who’s stopping you!
It appears that some people have lost touch with reality, we are not the US and we do not have a shortage of pilots in Canada, so comparing any airline to them is pointless.
No shortage of "pilots" he says...have you looked at the job board?

Pacific Coastal now gives out "signing bonuses". They post on there weekly

https://www.kenoradailyminerandnews.com ... er-garneau

One of those concerns is a lack of both qualified pilots and training programs, said Trevor Gavinchuk, Bearskin Airlines’ director of eastern operations.

“Our concern is there isn’t access to funding, similar to student loans, for aviation because it’s not a university or college — that’s our biggest concern for rectifying the pilot shortage — the pilot shortage, and the one that’s forecasted to come with the change in flight duty time,” Gavinchuk said.


Put that tin foil hat back on. Reality might be leak in.
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mbav8r
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Re: TA Passed.

Post by mbav8r »

flashheart wrote: Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:08 pm [quote=mbav8r post_id=<a href="tel:1068442">1068442</a> time=<a href="tel:1549405264">1549405264</a> user_id=8159]
[quote=flashheart post_id=<a href="tel:1068439">1068439</a> time=<a href="tel:1549404339">1549404339</a> user_id=45875]
Rowdy - is on the right track

The Jazz & "Canada is the best" koolaid is strong here.

I would leave this 99% arctic tundra in a heart beat for what they have down there. Better pay & way more buying power with the money you have.

But it's "apple and oranges". So no need to look...umm...Koolaid
Umm, so go, who’s stopping you!
It appears that some people have lost touch with reality, we are not the US and we do not have a shortage of pilots in Canada, so comparing any airline to them is pointless.
[/quote]

No shortage of "pilots" he says...have you looked at the job board?

Pacific Coastal now gives out "signing bonuses". They post on there weekly

https://www.kenoradailyminerandnews.com ... er-garneau

One of those concerns is a lack of both qualified pilots and training programs, said Trevor Gavinchuk, Bearskin Airlines’ director of eastern operations.

“Our concern is there isn’t access to funding, similar to student loans, for aviation because it’s not a university or college — that’s our biggest concern for rectifying the pilot shortage — the pilot shortage, and the one that’s forecasted to come with the change in flight duty time,” Gavinchuk said.


Put that tin foil hat back on. Reality might be leak in.
[/quote]
Maybe you should ask the 1200 pilots hired at Jazz the last few years if they were the last pilots available. I’m sure we won’t be able to fill our ground schools going forward based on your reality.
By the way, the new flight duty rules will have almost no effect on Jazz pilot requirements, we are almost fully compliant based on our current work rules.
It takes about 3 years for a shiny new hire straight from school to upgrade to Captain, with that timeframe in mind and forecast for pilot attrition, Jazz won’t have much trouble staffing the airline, if at all.
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daedalusx
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Re: TA Passed.

Post by daedalusx »

flashheart wrote: Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:08 pm
mbav8r wrote: Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:21 pm
flashheart wrote: Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:05 pm Rowdy - is on the right track

The Jazz & "Canada is the best" koolaid is strong here.

I would leave this 99% arctic tundra in a heart beat for what they have down there. Better pay & way more buying power with the money you have.

But it's "apple and oranges". So no need to look...umm...Koolaid
Umm, so go, who’s stopping you!
It appears that some people have lost touch with reality, we are not the US and we do not have a shortage of pilots in Canada, so comparing any airline to them is pointless.
No shortage of "pilots" he says...have you looked at the job board?

Pacific Coastal now gives out "signing bonuses". They post on there weekly

https://www.kenoradailyminerandnews.com ... er-garneau

One of those concerns is a lack of both qualified pilots and training programs, said Trevor Gavinchuk, Bearskin Airlines’ director of eastern operations.

“Our concern is there isn’t access to funding, similar to student loans, for aviation because it’s not a university or college — that’s our biggest concern for rectifying the pilot shortage — the pilot shortage, and the one that’s forecasted to come with the change in flight duty time,” Gavinchuk said.


Put that tin foil hat back on. Reality might be leak in.
There’s no shortage of pilot in the sense that as long as all you need to be right seat of a 737 is 250hrs and a pulse, nor Sunwing nor Jazz nor AC nor WJ will ever have an issue filling up a GS for a long time.
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C-GGGQ
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Re: TA Passed.

Post by C-GGGQ »

And honestly why not? They can obviously pass the type ratings. With proper training programs at good carriers like Jazz etc. they shouldn't be a safety hazard. Keep these 250's from being desperate enough from paying for the priveledge of a 182 PPC to to pay a reduced rate to fly jumpers. Signing up for ridiculous bonds, flying for shady northern operators or getting sucked into those pilot in waiting schemes we all tell them to turn down. Give them an option. That'll do more for aviation than anything. Make the job what people actually think it is.
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daedalusx
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Re: TA Passed.

Post by daedalusx »

C-GGGQ wrote: Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:58 pm And honestly why not? They can obviously pass the type ratings. With proper training programs at good carriers like Jazz etc. they shouldn't be a safety hazard. Keep these 250's from being desperate enough from paying for the priveledge of a 182 PPC to to pay a reduced rate to fly jumpers. Signing up for ridiculous bonds, flying for shady northern operators or getting sucked into those pilot in waiting schemes we all tell them to turn down. Give them an option. That'll do more for aviation than anything. Make the job what people actually think it is.
Sure but then don’t complain about the sub poverty wage for the first 8 years ...

Also operational experience will make for a much better decision making as opposed to the cadet who was never put in situation where he had to make a decision. If that’s your opinion that a low experience guy is fine because he can pass a ride then we might as well get replaced with remote drone operators and go do something else ...
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In twenty years time when your kids ask how you got into flying you want to be able to say "work and determination" not "I just kept taking money from your grandparents for type ratings until someone was stupid enough to give me a job"
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Re: TA Passed.

Post by C-GGGQ »

And how does the low timer gain experience and make those decisions now? By flying right seat and eventually left seat on a smaller aircraft. It's the same thing.

Hear me out. Right now the majority of new pilots are just getting their instructor rating and if a 1500 hr rule is passed here like the US that'd what they are going to continue to do. That's all that happens down there. You have hundreds of guys instructing for below min wage to get their 1500 to move on. The puppy mills stay open for cheap and continue to pump out pilots. You make these 250's allowed to go to good regionals instead and 90% or more are not gonna bother instructing. Schools will have no one to churn out pilots in these numbers without turning instructing into the job it should be. A decent paying job for experienced pilots who actually want to do it. Fewer people through the schools, heck you might even get those grants/ cadet programs/ govt loans people have been asking for since the cost of training goes up. Now you have your major shortage.
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truedude
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Re: TA Passed.

Post by truedude »

Stop trying to argue there is a shortage with these guys... They clearly lack a basic understanding of how shortages are measured or what constitutes a shortage. They would argue that every time they drop a bucket and it comes up full, there is clearly no concern of the well running dry.

There is a very small batch of pilots being trained in Canada, and nearly all airlines in Canada are pulling from that same resource... It will implode eventually. Until that day they will fill ground schools and these idiots will keep telling you there is no shortage. But of course you don't go from filling ground schools with 5000 hr pilots to sub 1000hr and say that everything is the same. Those metrics are markers, and they tell you something about the resource you are drawing from. But hey, feel safe that you just condemned Canadian aviation to a shitty 17 year deal because you were scared.

GGN was a failed experiment and was going to die. Sky will follow. Neither of them were truly set up to staff their airline with 250hr pilots. We could have sat back and watched them both die a slow death. Instead, we bailed both Air Canada out, and Jazz, and they somehow convinced 70% of our pilots that they were somehow doing us a favour. Everyone keeps arguing about 2010 as if the market is the same as 2010. Things change. The world has changed. You don't try to conduct business the same way, and you don't negotiate pretending things are the same. But whatever, it is what it is.
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proper
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Re: TA Passed.

Post by proper »

Yawn.
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mbav8r
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Re: TA Passed.

Post by mbav8r »

truedude wrote: Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:42 pm Stop trying to argue there is a shortage with these guys... They clearly lack a basic understanding of how shortages are measured or what constitutes a shortage. They would argue that every time they drop a bucket and it comes up full, there is clearly no concern of the well running dry.

There is a very small batch of pilots being trained in Canada, and nearly all airlines in Canada are pulling from that same resource... It will implode eventually. Until that day they will fill ground schools and these idiots will keep telling you there is no shortage. But of course you don't go from filling ground schools with 5000 hr pilots to sub 1000hr and say that everything is the same. Those metrics are markers, and they tell you something about the resource you are drawing from. But hey, feel safe that you just condemned Canadian aviation to a shitty 17 year deal because you were scared.

GGN was a failed experiment and was going to die. Sky will follow. Neither of them were truly set up to staff their airline with 250hr pilots. We could have sat back and watched them both die a slow death. Instead, we bailed both Air Canada out, and Jazz, and they somehow convinced 70% of our pilots that they were somehow doing us a favour. Everyone keeps arguing about 2010 as if the market is the same as 2010. Things change. The world has changed. You don't try to conduct business the same way, and you don't negotiate pretending things are the same. But whatever, it is what it is.
Nice to know you think so highly of your colleagues, that being said, no one is saying the landscape hasn’t changed but only an idiot thinks the landscape can’t go the other direction. You clearly haven’t been through a cycle, one where 5000 hours got you an interview for a Navajo job or 3000 hours to fly a 207.
We made gains now, 2025 could have gone either way based on the economy and retirements slowing down but I guess your crystal ball is better than 70% of us.
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Re: TA Passed.

Post by RVR6000 »

Want instant raises? the unions should lobby the US government to grant work visas for pilots. But that would conflict with big brother ALPA’s objectives. Or get transport to raise minimums for an ATPL.

Otherwise the 2% cycle continues. 2024 AC contract has 2% written all over it in exchange for more conssessions. Atleast we’re not flying 737 for $103/hr.
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truedude
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Re: TA Passed.

Post by truedude »

mbav8r wrote: Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:27 am
truedude wrote: Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:42 pm Stop trying to argue there is a shortage with these guys... They clearly lack a basic understanding of how shortages are measured or what constitutes a shortage. They would argue that every time they drop a bucket and it comes up full, there is clearly no concern of the well running dry.

There is a very small batch of pilots being trained in Canada, and nearly all airlines in Canada are pulling from that same resource... It will implode eventually. Until that day they will fill ground schools and these idiots will keep telling you there is no shortage. But of course you don't go from filling ground schools with 5000 hr pilots to sub 1000hr and say that everything is the same. Those metrics are markers, and they tell you something about the resource you are drawing from. But hey, feel safe that you just condemned Canadian aviation to a shitty 17 year deal because you were scared.

GGN was a failed experiment and was going to die. Sky will follow. Neither of them were truly set up to staff their airline with 250hr pilots. We could have sat back and watched them both die a slow death. Instead, we bailed both Air Canada out, and Jazz, and they somehow convinced 70% of our pilots that they were somehow doing us a favour. Everyone keeps arguing about 2010 as if the market is the same as 2010. Things change. The world has changed. You don't try to conduct business the same way, and you don't negotiate pretending things are the same. But whatever, it is what it is.
Nice to know you think so highly of your colleagues, that being said, no one is saying the landscape hasn’t changed but only an idiot thinks the landscape can’t go the other direction. You clearly haven’t been through a cycle, one where 5000 hours got you an interview for a Navajo job or 3000 hours to fly a 207.
We made gains now, 2025 could have gone either way based on the economy and retirements slowing down but I guess your crystal ball is better than 70% of us.
If my colleagues want to tell me how the braking was at a certain airport, or give me some inside tips about going to an airport I have never been to, I am all ears. But if these same colleagues want to prattle on how about how there is no pilot shortage in Canada, then I have no time for their ill informed "opinion." And it certainly won't stop me from pointing out just how wrong they are... On Avcanada, or in the crewroom. Same goes for if they want to tell me what happened the last time we took a stand against AC and got our bottoms slapped.

The world changes, the industry changes, the demographics change. You can't apply yesterdays rules and thinking to what is happening today. World War III will not be fought using the same strategies as World War II. The French applied the same tactics to World War II as they used in World War I and that just got them occupied.

There is a pilot shortage, it is clear to see for anyone who wants to look at the numbers. Simply using "they can fill groundschools" as an argument against the shortage is ridiculous.

People voted for this insane 17yr deal because they were scared. Scared of change. Scared of what happened in 2010. Scared they wouldn't be able to go to Air Canada. Scared about what might happen in 2025. But make no mistake, it was fear that passed this contract, not rational reasoned thinking based in the reality of today's industry and pilot market.

So go ahead and tell yourself that you voted "yes" because this provides security (even though there is not such thing in life). Tell yourself this unites the regional pilots and gives us better bargaining power (it doesn't). Tell yourself that at least Calin likes us now and won't do what he did in 2010 again (every airline that pops up will be unionized and ill equipped to hire 250hr pilots). Use what ever post hawk reasoning you want to to justify your position, just don't tell me I need to respect the idiocy of that position.

Edited for grammar!
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Last edited by truedude on Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
flashheart
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Re: TA Passed.

Post by flashheart »

Once in a while somebody just nails it on AvCanada

Exactly...
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mbav8r
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Re: TA Passed.

Post by mbav8r »

truedude wrote: Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:54 pm [quote=mbav8r post_id=<a href="tel:1068529">1068529</a> time=<a href="tel:1549459633">1549459633</a> user_id=8159]
[quote=truedude post_id=<a href="tel:1068499">1068499</a> time=<a href="tel:1549420926">1549420926</a> user_id=1348]
Stop trying to argue there is a shortage with these guys... They clearly lack a basic understanding of how shortages are measured or what constitutes a shortage. They would argue that every time they drop a bucket and it comes up full, there is clearly no concern of the well running dry.

There is a very small batch of pilots being trained in Canada, and nearly all airlines in Canada are pulling from that same resource... It will implode eventually. Until that day they will fill ground schools and these idiots will keep telling you there is no shortage. But of course you don't go from filling ground schools with 5000 hr pilots to sub 1000hr and say that everything is the same. Those metrics are markers, and they tell you something about the resource you are drawing from. But hey, feel safe that you just condemned Canadian aviation to a shitty 17 year deal because you were scared.

GGN was a failed experiment and was going to die. Sky will follow. Neither of them were truly set up to staff their airline with 250hr pilots. We could have sat back and watched them both die a slow death. Instead, we bailed both Air Canada out, and Jazz, and they somehow convinced 70% of our pilots that they were somehow doing us a favour. Everyone keeps arguing about 2010 as if the market is the same as 2010. Things change. The world has changed. You don't try to conduct business the same way, and you don't negotiate pretending things are the same. But whatever, it is what it is.
Nice to know you think so highly of your colleagues, that being said, no one is saying the landscape hasn’t changed but only an idiot thinks the landscape can’t go the other direction. You clearly haven’t been through a cycle, one where 5000 hours got you an interview for a Navajo job or 3000 hours to fly a 207.
We made gains now, 2025 could have gone either way based on the economy and retirements slowing down but I guess your crystal ball is better than 70% of us.
If my colleagues want to tell me how the breaking was at a certain airport, or give me some inside tips about going to an airport I have never been to, I am all ears. But if these same colleagues want to prattle on how about how there is no pilot shortage in Canada, then I have no time for their ill informed "opinion." And it certainly won't stop me from pointing out just how wrong they are... On Avcanada, or in the crewroom. Same goes for if they want to tell me what happened the last time we took a stand against AC and got our bottoms slapped.

The world changes, the industry changes, the demographics change. You can't apply yesterdays rules and thinking to what is happening today. World War III will not be fought using the same strategies as World War II. The French applied the same tactics to World War II as they used in World War I and that just got them occupied.

There is a pilot shortage, it is clear to see for anyone who wants to look at the numbers. Simply using "they can fill groundschools" as an argument against the shortage is ridiculous.

People voted for this insane 17yr deal because they were scared. Scared of change. Scared of what happened in 2010. Scared they wouldn't be able to go to Air Canada. Scared about what might happen in 2025. But make no mistake, it was fear that passed this contract, not rational reasoned thinking based in the reality of today's industry and pilot market.

So go ahead and tell yourself that you voted "yes" because this provides security (even though there is not such thing in life). Tell yourself this unites the regional pilots and gives us better bargaining power (it doesn't). Tell yourself that at least Calin likes us now and won't do what he did in 2010 again (every airline that pops up will be unionized and ill equipped to hire 250hr pilots). Use what ever post hawk reasoning you want to to justify your position, just don't tell me I need to respect the idiocy of that position.
[/quote][/quote]
Ok, couple things, it’s braking!
Next, has one ground school gone unfilled, has one left seat gone empty because we didn’t have any qualified pilots, I know the answer but apparently to you a shortage means something else.
This is the last time I will engage you because I simply don’t like you, you’re an arrogant self centred millennial, that’s clear.
We are not at war with management, whether this was fear driven or not is irrelevant because it’s based on rational conclusions from past experience.
We are way overdue for a recession, or do you think the economy is now recession proof because we must have learned from the past mistakes, right.
In my 30 years in this industry, I have never seen the good times this good or last this long but only a friggen moron thinks it’ll keep going this way, unfortunately you’re too ignorant to realize it.
Tell you what, I’ll still be on avcanada come 2025, I’m sure, if we’ve gone until then without having some type of meltdown that causes some type of slowdown, I’ll buy you a bottle of something, your choice(not top shelf though) I didn’t get a raise, so you could, you’re welcome!
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truedude
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Re: TA Passed.

Post by truedude »

mbav8r wrote: Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:35 pm
truedude wrote: Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:54 pm [quote=mbav8r post_id=<a href="tel:1068529">1068529</a> time=<a href="tel:1549459633">1549459633</a> user_id=8159]
[quote=truedude post_id=<a href="tel:1068499">1068499</a> time=<a href="tel:1549420926">1549420926</a> user_id=1348]
Stop trying to argue there is a shortage with these guys... They clearly lack a basic understanding of how shortages are measured or what constitutes a shortage. They would argue that every time they drop a bucket and it comes up full, there is clearly no concern of the well running dry.

There is a very small batch of pilots being trained in Canada, and nearly all airlines in Canada are pulling from that same resource... It will implode eventually. Until that day they will fill ground schools and these idiots will keep telling you there is no shortage. But of course you don't go from filling ground schools with 5000 hr pilots to sub 1000hr and say that everything is the same. Those metrics are markers, and they tell you something about the resource you are drawing from. But hey, feel safe that you just condemned Canadian aviation to a shitty 17 year deal because you were scared.

GGN was a failed experiment and was going to die. Sky will follow. Neither of them were truly set up to staff their airline with 250hr pilots. We could have sat back and watched them both die a slow death. Instead, we bailed both Air Canada out, and Jazz, and they somehow convinced 70% of our pilots that they were somehow doing us a favour. Everyone keeps arguing about 2010 as if the market is the same as 2010. Things change. The world has changed. You don't try to conduct business the same way, and you don't negotiate pretending things are the same. But whatever, it is what it is.
Nice to know you think so highly of your colleagues, that being said, no one is saying the landscape hasn’t changed but only an idiot thinks the landscape can’t go the other direction. You clearly haven’t been through a cycle, one where 5000 hours got you an interview for a Navajo job or 3000 hours to fly a 207.
We made gains now, 2025 could have gone either way based on the economy and retirements slowing down but I guess your crystal ball is better than 70% of us.
If my colleagues want to tell me how the breaking was at a certain airport, or give me some inside tips about going to an airport I have never been to, I am all ears. But if these same colleagues want to prattle on how about how there is no pilot shortage in Canada, then I have no time for their ill informed "opinion." And it certainly won't stop me from pointing out just how wrong they are... On Avcanada, or in the crewroom. Same goes for if they want to tell me what happened the last time we took a stand against AC and got our bottoms slapped.

The world changes, the industry changes, the demographics change. You can't apply yesterdays rules and thinking to what is happening today. World War III will not be fought using the same strategies as World War II. The French applied the same tactics to World War II as they used in World War I and that just got them occupied.

There is a pilot shortage, it is clear to see for anyone who wants to look at the numbers. Simply using "they can fill groundschools" as an argument against the shortage is ridiculous.

People voted for this insane 17yr deal because they were scared. Scared of change. Scared of what happened in 2010. Scared they wouldn't be able to go to Air Canada. Scared about what might happen in 2025. But make no mistake, it was fear that passed this contract, not rational reasoned thinking based in the reality of today's industry and pilot market.

So go ahead and tell yourself that you voted "yes" because this provides security (even though there is not such thing in life). Tell yourself this unites the regional pilots and gives us better bargaining power (it doesn't). Tell yourself that at least Calin likes us now and won't do what he did in 2010 again (every airline that pops up will be unionized and ill equipped to hire 250hr pilots). Use what ever post hawk reasoning you want to to justify your position, just don't tell me I need to respect the idiocy of that position.
[/quote]
Ok, couple things, it’s braking!
Next, has one ground school gone unfilled, has one left seat gone empty because we didn’t have any qualified pilots, I know the answer but apparently to you a shortage means something else.
This is the last time I will engage you because I simply don’t like you, you’re an arrogant self centred millennial, that’s clear.
We are not at war with management, whether this was fear driven or not is irrelevant because it’s based on rational conclusions from past experience.
We are way overdue for a recession, or do you think the economy is now recession proof because we must have learned from the past mistakes, right.
In my 30 years in this industry, I have never seen the good times this good or last this long but only a friggen moron thinks it’ll keep going this way, unfortunately you’re too ignorant to realize it.
Tell you what, I’ll still be on avcanada come 2025, I’m sure, if we’ve gone until then without having some type of meltdown that causes some type of slowdown, I’ll buy you a bottle of something, your choice(not top shelf though) I didn’t get a raise, so you could, you’re welcome!
[/quote]

When did you not get a raise so I could get one??? I have been at Jazz a lot longer than I think you think I have been. And the only real measure that will have any impact on our profession is if a slow down in anyway mitigates the pilot shortage we are currently seeing.
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Re: TA Passed.

Post by mixturerich »

truedude wrote: Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:54 pm
mbav8r wrote: Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:27 am
truedude wrote: Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:42 pm Stop trying to argue there is a shortage with these guys... They clearly lack a basic understanding of how shortages are measured or what constitutes a shortage. They would argue that every time they drop a bucket and it comes up full, there is clearly no concern of the well running dry.

There is a very small batch of pilots being trained in Canada, and nearly all airlines in Canada are pulling from that same resource... It will implode eventually. Until that day they will fill ground schools and these idiots will keep telling you there is no shortage. But of course you don't go from filling ground schools with 5000 hr pilots to sub 1000hr and say that everything is the same. Those metrics are markers, and they tell you something about the resource you are drawing from. But hey, feel safe that you just condemned Canadian aviation to a shitty 17 year deal because you were scared.

GGN was a failed experiment and was going to die. Sky will follow. Neither of them were truly set up to staff their airline with 250hr pilots. We could have sat back and watched them both die a slow death. Instead, we bailed both Air Canada out, and Jazz, and they somehow convinced 70% of our pilots that they were somehow doing us a favour. Everyone keeps arguing about 2010 as if the market is the same as 2010. Things change. The world has changed. You don't try to conduct business the same way, and you don't negotiate pretending things are the same. But whatever, it is what it is.
Nice to know you think so highly of your colleagues, that being said, no one is saying the landscape hasn’t changed but only an idiot thinks the landscape can’t go the other direction. You clearly haven’t been through a cycle, one where 5000 hours got you an interview for a Navajo job or 3000 hours to fly a 207.
We made gains now, 2025 could have gone either way based on the economy and retirements slowing down but I guess your crystal ball is better than 70% of us.
If my colleagues want to tell me how the braking was at a certain airport, or give me some inside tips about going to an airport I have never been to, I am all ears. But if these same colleagues want to prattle on how about how there is no pilot shortage in Canada, then I have no time for their ill informed "opinion." And it certainly won't stop me from pointing out just how wrong they are... On Avcanada, or in the crewroom. Same goes for if they want to tell me what happened the last time we took a stand against AC and got our bottoms slapped.

The world changes, the industry changes, the demographics change. You can't apply yesterdays rules and thinking to what is happening today. World War III will not be fought using the same strategies as World War II. The French applied the same tactics to World War II as they used in World War I and that just got them occupied.

There is a pilot shortage, it is clear to see for anyone who wants to look at the numbers. Simply using "they can fill groundschools" as an argument against the shortage is ridiculous.

People voted for this insane 17yr deal because they were scared. Scared of change. Scared of what happened in 2010. Scared they wouldn't be able to go to Air Canada. Scared about what might happen in 2025. But make no mistake, it was fear that passed this contract, not rational reasoned thinking based in the reality of today's industry and pilot market.

So go ahead and tell yourself that you voted "yes" because this provides security (even though there is not such thing in life). Tell yourself this unites the regional pilots and gives us better bargaining power (it doesn't). Tell yourself that at least Calin likes us now and won't do what he did in 2010 again (every airline that pops up will be unionized and ill equipped to hire 250hr pilots). Use what ever post hawk reasoning you want to to justify your position, just don't tell me I need to respect the idiocy of that position.

Edited for grammar!
It’s true that there is a pilot shortage in Canada, but unfortunately it’s not serious enough yet to give Jazz employees much leverage. And when things slow down, or a worldwide catastrophe kills the industry, at least they won’t be left out to dry in 2025.

The agreement to 2035 is significant in many positive ways. I think some people were scared, sure, but mostly people were just smart. For most people there were much bigger considerations that just salary, you seem to have failed to realize this. I hope your critical thinking skills on the job are better than the ones you display here.

And comparing aviation union contract negotiations to the World Wars...kind of a dummy thing to say and that killed your credibility right there. I’m sorry to see you’ve got your panties in such a bunch, stating your own opinions as fact and calling other people idiotic. You are a poor debater with weak arguments...you’re talking a lot, but no one is listening.
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truedude
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Re: TA Passed.

Post by truedude »

mixturerich wrote: Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:44 pm
truedude wrote: Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:54 pm
mbav8r wrote: Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:27 am

Nice to know you think so highly of your colleagues, that being said, no one is saying the landscape hasn’t changed but only an idiot thinks the landscape can’t go the other direction. You clearly haven’t been through a cycle, one where 5000 hours got you an interview for a Navajo job or 3000 hours to fly a 207.
We made gains now, 2025 could have gone either way based on the economy and retirements slowing down but I guess your crystal ball is better than 70% of us.
If my colleagues want to tell me how the braking was at a certain airport, or give me some inside tips about going to an airport I have never been to, I am all ears. But if these same colleagues want to prattle on how about how there is no pilot shortage in Canada, then I have no time for their ill informed "opinion." And it certainly won't stop me from pointing out just how wrong they are... On Avcanada, or in the crewroom. Same goes for if they want to tell me what happened the last time we took a stand against AC and got our bottoms slapped.

The world changes, the industry changes, the demographics change. You can't apply yesterdays rules and thinking to what is happening today. World War III will not be fought using the same strategies as World War II. The French applied the same tactics to World War II as they used in World War I and that just got them occupied.

There is a pilot shortage, it is clear to see for anyone who wants to look at the numbers. Simply using "they can fill groundschools" as an argument against the shortage is ridiculous.

People voted for this insane 17yr deal because they were scared. Scared of change. Scared of what happened in 2010. Scared they wouldn't be able to go to Air Canada. Scared about what might happen in 2025. But make no mistake, it was fear that passed this contract, not rational reasoned thinking based in the reality of today's industry and pilot market.

So go ahead and tell yourself that you voted "yes" because this provides security (even though there is not such thing in life). Tell yourself this unites the regional pilots and gives us better bargaining power (it doesn't). Tell yourself that at least Calin likes us now and won't do what he did in 2010 again (every airline that pops up will be unionized and ill equipped to hire 250hr pilots). Use what ever post hawk reasoning you want to to justify your position, just don't tell me I need to respect the idiocy of that position.

Edited for grammar!
It’s true that there is a pilot shortage in Canada, but unfortunately it’s not serious enough yet to give Jazz employees much leverage. And when things slow down, or a worldwide catastrophe kills the industry, at least they won’t be left out to dry in 2025.

The agreement to 2035 is significant in many positive ways. I think some people were scared, sure, but mostly people were just smart. For most people there were much bigger considerations that just salary, you seem to have failed to realize this. I hope your critical thinking skills on the job are better than the ones you display here.

And comparing aviation union contract negotiations to the World Wars...kind of a dummy thing to say and that killed your credibility right there. I’m sorry to see you’ve got your panties in such a bunch, stating your own opinions as fact and calling other people idiotic. You are a poor debater with weak arguments...you’re talking a lot, but no one is listening.
"... at least they won't be left out to dry in 2025." Who won't be left out to dry in 2025? You know the future? You think this contract gives us any guarantees in 2025 when it comes to salary? You know that a pilot shortage won't be affecting Canada in 2025? I am sorry, but again, a lot of post hawk reasoning for agreeing to what amounts to a sad contract for a ridiculously long term.

And as far as comparing contract negotiations to World Wars, those that understand the logical reasoning will follow the argument.
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flyzam
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Re: TA Passed.

Post by flyzam »

mixturerich wrote: Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:44 pm I think some people were scared, sure, but mostly people were just smart...
ergo
[The smart ones by coincidence did what I agree with... because I am smart to start out with]

you gotta love conversations on the internet.
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JohnnyHotRocks
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Re: TA Passed.

Post by JohnnyHotRocks »

You guys get too angry when someone disagrees
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mmm..bacon
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Re: TA Passed.

Post by mmm..bacon »

post hoc. After the event
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mixturerich
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Re: TA Passed.

Post by mixturerich »

JohnnyHotRocks wrote: Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:15 pm You guys get too angry when someone disagrees
Well when someone calls all the Jazz pilots “scared,” it’s offensive and downright disrespectful.
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