Upgrade timelines

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MrTurbine
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Upgrade timelines

Post by MrTurbine » Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:43 pm

I’ve been asked this question a few times from some pilots that I mentor and I keep forgetting to ask the group here. Since I only know the encore scoop on this, I need info on the jazz side.

Flight instructor who has about 1000 hours and has to choose between encore and jazz (because these lucky bastards get interviews with this kind of experience, or lack thereof). If he comes to encore, with the way the matrix works, if he wants a Calgary skipper spot, it will take him about 2 and a half (or so) years from his day one until his line check is all done and he makes skipper mula.

What’s the current timeline at jazz for someone with this type of experience who wants a skipper spot (any type) but has to be in YYC?

Ps. I’m not mad or anything about the lack of experience these new hires have, the terrible attitudes, the lack of respect to their elders, and their obnoxiously bad radio work and situational awareness. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not whining about it at all.
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V1Vr
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Re: Upgrade timelines

Post by V1Vr » Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:54 pm

Is this even a question? Jazz. By far. Not only will he likely be skipper way faster in YYC, he'll have the opportunity to be skip likely in Montreal first and can commute if he so chooses. Encore pay may look like it's more but your total compensation and lifestyle is much better at Jazz. Not to mention likely off to AC in two years now if he wants vs who knows how many years before "flowing" to Swoop.

YYC is currently a bit over two years but if AC gobbles 250 pilots this year like we expect I imagine that will drop.

No offense, I see you are at Encore. But with the new WJ contract and now the new Jazz contract I don't see any reason for anyone to go to Encore any longer.
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V1Vr
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Re: Upgrade timelines

Post by V1Vr » Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:56 pm

I guess the real answer though is, whoever offers a job first.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Upgrade timelines

Post by goingnowherefast » Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:19 am

Given the recent happenings at both sides, pretty sad options. AC and Jazz with lifestyle and movement is better than Swoop and stagnation with a management team that hates pilots. But that's like picking the smaller bucket of poop. It's still all shit.
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Re: Upgrade timelines

Post by av8ts » Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:49 am

goingnowherefast wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:19 am
Given the recent happenings at both sides, pretty sad options. AC and Jazz with lifestyle and movement is better than Swoop and stagnation with a management team that hates pilots. But that's like picking the smaller bucket of poop. It's still all shit.
So with a 1000 hours the pilot will get to be a F/O on a Q400 or Rj then in 2 years has a 90% chance of a job with AC. I wish there was “shit” opportunities like that when I had a 1000 hours
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rudder
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Re: Upgrade timelines

Post by rudder » Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:01 am

av8ts wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:49 am

So with a 1000 hours the pilot will get to be a F/O on a Q400 or Rj then in 2 years has a 90% chance of a job with AC. I wish there was “shit” opportunities like that when I had a 1000 hours
Actually, in some cases a pilot with 250 hours will get to be an F/O on a Q400 or Rj then in 2 years has a 90% chance of a job with AC.

Brand new to the industry operating 4 hour jet sectors with layovers in SFO and SAN.

Welcome to aviation in the 2020’s
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Re: Upgrade timelines

Post by Outlaw58 » Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:31 am

rudder wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:01 am
av8ts wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:49 am

So with a 1000 hours the pilot will get to be a F/O on a Q400 or Rj then in 2 years has a 90% chance of a job with AC. I wish there was “shit” opportunities like that when I had a 1000 hours
Actually, in some cases a pilot with 250 hours will get to be an F/O on a Q400 or Rj then in 2 years has a 90% chance of a job with AC.

Brand new to the industry operating 4 hour jet sectors with layovers in SFO and SAN.

Welcome to aviation in the 2020’s
Well there is still the ATPL hurdle for the college grads. The flight instructor will likely have all his PIC time but the grad is going to need PICUS if he jumps straight to the regional and with the upcoming AC flow, the training dept is likely to be swamped with line indoc. I know some captains will be checked to give PICUS time but for anyone shy of their PIC time by a significant margin, it could be quite painful to get the numbers.

58
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Re: Upgrade timelines

Post by V1Vr » Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:39 am

Outlaw58 wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:31 am
rudder wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:01 am
av8ts wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:49 am

So with a 1000 hours the pilot will get to be a F/O on a Q400 or Rj then in 2 years has a 90% chance of a job with AC. I wish there was “shit” opportunities like that when I had a 1000 hours
Actually, in some cases a pilot with 250 hours will get to be an F/O on a Q400 or Rj then in 2 years has a 90% chance of a job with AC.

Brand new to the industry operating 4 hour jet sectors with layovers in SFO and SAN.

Welcome to aviation in the 2020’s
Well there is still the ATPL hurdle for the college grads. The flight instructor will likely have all his PIC time but the grad is going to need PICUS if he jumps straight to the regional and with the upcoming AC flow, the training dept is likely to be swamped with line indoc. I know some captains will be checked to give PICUS time but for anyone shy of their PIC time by a significant margin, it could be quite painful to get the numbers.

58
3 years should be more than enough time for anyone who even low motivation to get their ATPL.
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47north
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Re: Upgrade timelines

Post by 47north » Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:52 am

If I were in that position, I wouldn’t be relying on PICUS at all the get the PIC time. They will have to go out and buy their hours on a local airport. Some have been granted LOAs so they can work elsewhere for a short time as well. If we are short staffed, that is less likely too.

Seems like a flawed system where they have to go spend money on a 172 to get PIC time. Not sure how relevant that is to operating at an airline.
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Re: Upgrade timelines

Post by Outlaw58 » Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:08 am

47north wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:52 am
If I were in that position, I wouldn’t be relying on PICUS at all the get the PIC time. They will have to go out and buy their hours on a local airport. Some have been granted LOAs so they can work elsewhere for a short time as well. If we are short staffed, that is less likely too.

Seems like a flawed system where they have to go spend money on a 172 to get PIC time. Not sure how relevant that is to operating at an airline.
Well this is my military experience speaking but you can't really explain experience until you painted yourself in a corner and don't have the luxury of a fully functioning well-equipped aircraft capable of handling any and all weather conditions, a captain or copilot to bounce your ideas on, ATC that sees you on radar and/or direct comms with your maintenance/dispatch and have only yourself to rely on to get yourself out of said corner.

"Experience is something you don't acquire until a fraction of a second after needing it."

58
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Re: Upgrade timelines

Post by 47north » Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:26 am

Outlaw58 wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:08 am
47north wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:52 am
If I were in that position, I wouldn’t be relying on PICUS at all the get the PIC time. They will have to go out and buy their hours on a local airport. Some have been granted LOAs so they can work elsewhere for a short time as well. If we are short staffed, that is less likely too.

Seems like a flawed system where they have to go spend money on a 172 to get PIC time. Not sure how relevant that is to operating at an airline.
Well this is my military experience speaking but you can't really explain experience until you painted yourself in a corner and don't have the luxury of a fully functioning well-equipped aircraft capable of handling any and all weather conditions, a captain or copilot to bounce your ideas on, ATC that sees you on radar and/or direct comms with your maintenance/dispatch and have only yourself to rely on to get yourself out of said corner.

"Experience is something you don't acquire until a fraction of a second after needing it."

58
+1
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Re: Upgrade timelines

Post by goingnowherefast » Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:48 pm

av8ts wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:49 am
goingnowherefast wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:19 am
Given the recent happenings at both sides, pretty sad options. AC and Jazz with lifestyle and movement is better than Swoop and stagnation with a management team that hates pilots. But that's like picking the smaller bucket of poop. It's still all shit.
So with a 1000 hours the pilot will get to be a F/O on a Q400 or Rj then in 2 years has a 90% chance of a job with AC. I wish there was “shit” opportunities like that when I had a 1000 hours
The shit opportunities I'm referring to are the opportunity to make poverty wages and still need to buy pic time so you're even eligible for upgrade.

I couldn't care less if it leads to Air Canada, their starting pay sucks too.

When I had 500-1000 hours I was making more than a first year Jazz FO and I was flying right seat in a King Air. First year captain at that company paid more than the 3rd year at Air Canada. Oh, and Monday to Thursday schedule, average 9 hour duty days.

So yes, I think 37 grand a year with a crap low seniority schedule and the "90% maybe" of making 55 grand a year with an equally crap low seniority schedule is a shit deal. Plus you have to live in one of Canada's most expensive cities.
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Re: Upgrade timelines

Post by MrTurbine » Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:07 pm

goingnowherefast wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:48 pm
av8ts wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:49 am
goingnowherefast wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:19 am
Given the recent happenings at both sides, pretty sad options. AC and Jazz with lifestyle and movement is better than Swoop and stagnation with a management team that hates pilots. But that's like picking the smaller bucket of poop. It's still all shit.
So with a 1000 hours the pilot will get to be a F/O on a Q400 or Rj then in 2 years has a 90% chance of a job with AC. I wish there was “shit” opportunities like that when I had a 1000 hours
The shit opportunities I'm referring to are the opportunity to make poverty wages and still need to buy pic time so you're even eligible for upgrade.

I couldn't care less if it leads to Air Canada, their starting pay sucks too.

When I had 500-1000 hours I was making more than a first year Jazz FO and I was flying right seat in a King Air. First year captain at that company paid more than the 3rd year at Air Canada. Oh, and Monday to Thursday schedule, average 9 hour duty days.

So yes, I think 37 grand a year with a crap low seniority schedule and the "90% maybe" of making 55 grand a year with an equally crap low seniority schedule is a shit deal. Plus you have to live in one of Canada's most expensive cities.
Highest paid skipper at AC last year made just over half a million $ and worked about half a month at most every month. So worked about the same as you, and made as much as 5 you’s, if I were to gander a guess. Mind you, I currently get paid trash for what I do but love my schedule, so I’m not really one to talk.
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Re: Upgrade timelines

Post by av8ts » Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:36 pm

goingnowherefast wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:48 pm
av8ts wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:49 am
goingnowherefast wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:19 am
Given the recent happenings at both sides, pretty sad options. AC and Jazz with lifestyle and movement is better than Swoop and stagnation with a management team that hates pilots. But that's like picking the smaller bucket of poop. It's still all shit.
So with a 1000 hours the pilot will get to be a F/O on a Q400 or Rj then in 2 years has a 90% chance of a job with AC. I wish there was “shit” opportunities like that when I had a 1000 hours
The shit opportunities I'm referring to are the opportunity to make poverty wages and still need to buy pic time so you're even eligible for upgrade.

I couldn't care less if it leads to Air Canada, their starting pay sucks too.

When I had 500-1000 hours I was making more than a first year Jazz FO and I was flying right seat in a King Air. First year captain at that company paid more than the 3rd year at Air Canada. Oh, and Monday to Thursday schedule, average 9 hour duty days.

So yes, I think 37 grand a year with a crap low seniority schedule and the "90% maybe" of making 55 grand a year with an equally crap low seniority schedule is a shit deal. Plus you have to live in one of Canada's most expensive cities.
I know, that PFO letter really sucks
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Re: Upgrade timelines

Post by goingnowherefast » Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:24 pm

MrTurbine wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:07 pm
goingnowherefast wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:48 pm
av8ts wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:49 am


So with a 1000 hours the pilot will get to be a F/O on a Q400 or Rj then in 2 years has a 90% chance of a job with AC. I wish there was “shit” opportunities like that when I had a 1000 hours
The shit opportunities I'm referring to are the opportunity to make poverty wages and still need to buy pic time so you're even eligible for upgrade.

I couldn't care less if it leads to Air Canada, their starting pay sucks too.

When I had 500-1000 hours I was making more than a first year Jazz FO and I was flying right seat in a King Air. First year captain at that company paid more than the 3rd year at Air Canada. Oh, and Monday to Thursday schedule, average 9 hour duty days.

So yes, I think 37 grand a year with a crap low seniority schedule and the "90% maybe" of making 55 grand a year with an equally crap low seniority schedule is a shit deal. Plus you have to live in one of Canada's most expensive cities.
Highest paid skipper at AC last year made just over half a million $ and worked about half a month at most every month. So worked about the same as you, and made as much as 5 you’s, if I were to gander a guess. Mind you, I currently get paid trash for what I do but love my schedule, so I’m not really one to talk.
So everyone who joins a regional airline as a 1000 hr instructor is going to eventually top out at half a million dollars? Or is that just a one off example at the top of the list who worked a bunch of overtime?

Also the way the contracts are going, every one a bit less than before, I bet that those joining now will never see the half million dollar T4s. The CRJ 200s used to be flown by mainline pilots at mainline rates. Now they're making 37,000/yr. Do you really think that in 30 years a wide body captain will make the same they are making now?

And no, I didn't get a PFO. I just couldn't justify the pay cut.
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Re: Upgrade timelines

Post by MrTurbine » Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:18 pm

goingnowherefast wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:24 pm
MrTurbine wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:07 pm
goingnowherefast wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:48 pm


The shit opportunities I'm referring to are the opportunity to make poverty wages and still need to buy pic time so you're even eligible for upgrade.

I couldn't care less if it leads to Air Canada, their starting pay sucks too.

When I had 500-1000 hours I was making more than a first year Jazz FO and I was flying right seat in a King Air. First year captain at that company paid more than the 3rd year at Air Canada. Oh, and Monday to Thursday schedule, average 9 hour duty days.

So yes, I think 37 grand a year with a crap low seniority schedule and the "90% maybe" of making 55 grand a year with an equally crap low seniority schedule is a shit deal. Plus you have to live in one of Canada's most expensive cities.
Highest paid skipper at AC last year made just over half a million $ and worked about half a month at most every month. So worked about the same as you, and made as much as 5 you’s, if I were to gander a guess. Mind you, I currently get paid trash for what I do but love my schedule, so I’m not really one to talk.
So everyone who joins a regional airline as a 1000 hr instructor is going to eventually top out at half a million dollars? Or is that just a one off example at the top of the list who worked a bunch of overtime?

Also the way the contracts are going, every one a bit less than before, I bet that those joining now will never see the half million dollar T4s. The CRJ 200s used to be flown by mainline pilots at mainline rates. Now they're making 37,000/yr. Do you really think that in 30 years a wide body captain will make the same they are making now?

And no, I didn't get a PFO. I just couldn't justify the pay cut.
There is some truth to this. My understanding as to why, businessmen have become more ruthless while pilots now more than ever are happy to stab each other in the back to chase metal.

However, It’s not one off, there’s a LOT of folk in the majors that see 200-350 k with not too much extra hustle. So 400 to half a Mil is not that far off for an OT hor.

I mean in the regional, I see a majority of skips who average 140-190 k with decent amount of hustle. So for shit pay, I think that’s pretty good actually.
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Re: Upgrade timelines

Post by GhostRider6 » Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:28 pm

I think the jazz guys and gals are getting the sh$& end of the stick.

If you think Aviation is the only industry getting squeezed by ruthless CEO’s think again.

It’s a societal problem .. not just an aviation problem.

TC, ATAC etc etc are entities perpetuating the cycle of BS. Alpa is looking out for its own interests and the average interest of Joe Schmo and (m Picking the most favorable option out of : crap, crappiest and least crappy .
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Re: Upgrade timelines

Post by V1Vr » Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:31 pm

GhostRider6 wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:28 pm
I think the jazz guys and gals are getting the sh$& end of the stick.

If you think Aviation is the only industry getting squeezed by ruthless CEO’s think again.

It’s a societal problem .. not just an aviation problem.

TC, ATAC etc etc are entities perpetuating the cycle of BS. Alpa is looking out for its own interests and the average interest of Joe Schmo and (m Picking the most favorable option out of : crap, crappiest and least crappy .
What does "ALPA looking out for it's intrests" mean? We are all ALPA.

You know pilots from Jazz negotiated this, right? ALPA didn't send in some cronies from "head office" to do the bidding for us.
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Re: Upgrade timelines

Post by MrTurbine » Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:38 pm

V1Vr wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:31 pm
GhostRider6 wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:28 pm
I think the jazz guys and gals are getting the sh$& end of the stick.

If you think Aviation is the only industry getting squeezed by ruthless CEO’s think again.

It’s a societal problem .. not just an aviation problem.

TC, ATAC etc etc are entities perpetuating the cycle of BS. Alpa is looking out for its own interests and the average interest of Joe Schmo and (m Picking the most favorable option out of : crap, crappiest and least crappy .
What does "ALPA looking out for it's intrests" mean? We are all ALPA.

You know pilots from Jazz negotiated this, right? ALPA didn't send in some cronies from "head office" to do the bidding for us.
💯 % true. People need to stop blaming alpa for everything. They are just a resource association that we pay a lot of money to. The scumbags are inbred. Mind you I’m all for alpa at WEN, but I’ve seen it go south in other places. All depends on the reps at the company. Not the association itself. Much good can come from it, if it is used properly. Just need the right people running it.
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Re: Upgrade timelines

Post by GhostRider6 » Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:09 pm

Do the members of the MEC not work for Jazz?
Do they not have vested interests as well?

I’m not blaming anyone! Where did I blame alpa exactly? I’m saying alpa probably took the least of several crappy deals where there was the most to gain .. for its interests and it’s members.

Whenever I’m told to sign an agreement under pressure and quickly with little time to really think ... I start asking questions.. Ultimately, that’s when I slow down..

But I am saying things like this are a symptom of a overall global issue called corporate greed. Past history shows this..

If you also noticed I’m not bashing jazz.. I’m actually saying “ lay-off” to the jazz bashers.

Yeesh!!!
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Last edited by GhostRider6 on Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

V1Vr
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Re: Upgrade timelines

Post by V1Vr » Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:11 pm

GhostRider6 wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:09 pm
Do the members of the MEC not work for Jazz?
Do they not have vested interests as well?

Whenever I’m told to sign an agreement under pressure and quickly with little time to really think ... I start asking questions.. Ultimately, that’s when I slow down..

But I am saying things like this are a symptom of a overall global issue called corporate greed. Past history shows this..

If you also noticed I’m not bashing jazz.. I’m actually saying “ lay-off” to the jazz bashers.
They all work at Jazz, and are voted into office by the members of the pilot group.

If you have an issue with your LEC reps and the MEC... vote for new people.

Personally I have no issues with any of them, and TBH wouldn't want their jobs. Pretty thankless and takes a certain type of individual to do the job well.
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Re: Upgrade timelines

Post by GhostRider6 » Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:04 am

I never said I have issues...

I said they had a fine line to walk between what the company is willing to dish out ( which typically isn’t awesome, the alpa member’s interests ( joe line pilot) and protecting their career longevity. I don’t see any bashing there..

And no, in this day in age I wouldn’t want the job..

☮️
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Re: Upgrade timelines

Post by LennyLeonard » Sat Feb 02, 2019 10:30 am

GhostRider6 wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:09 pm

Whenever I’m told to sign an agreement under pressure and quickly with little time to really think ... I start asking questions.. Ultimately, that’s when I slow down..
Sounds like the Jazz guys signed while under duress.
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Re: Upgrade timelines

Post by V1Vr » Sat Feb 02, 2019 10:45 am

Deleted cause I'm a dick.
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Re: Upgrade timelines

Post by GhostRider6 » Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:13 am

Wow! Nice! That’s a great way to talk about your fellow coworkers.

I have friends who work, their wives work, they have kids. They tried to carve out time to watch the videos bit would have liked to attend a roadshow in person. Or they had other things to do ..What’s the problem with that?

What’s the rush? Why not give people a few months to think about it? It does technically decide the next 17 years...their careers and ultimately their lives. No small deal!! That’s something I’d want lots of time to think about if I was serious about my career at company XYZ.

Two weeks to decide the next 17 years? How is that not fast... ??

What’s your experience level like with arbitration? Mediation? Or legal agreements?

Several people whom I respect echoed similar sentiments as me. Do you wish to take their pilots license as well? In your humble opinion what are measures of intelligence and who should be a pilot? Please enlighten me.

Namaste
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