Jazz Payscale Updated 2019

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bearitus
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Re: Jazz Payscale Updated 2019

Post by bearitus » Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:05 am

The FO demographic at Jazz is pretty well all single early to mid 20's rich kids with nicely gelled hair who get help from mom and dad and live at home or with roommates. I was shocked when I joined a year and a half ago and was one of the oldest and highest time guys in my class (I was only 27 at the time and had around 1500 hours).
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Re: Jazz Payscale Updated 2019

Post by av8ts » Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:22 am

mixturerich wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:18 pm
At least someone can have a life in Vancouver, even on 38k. 55k up north doesn’t matter if you have nothing but beer to spend it on.

A lot of junior regional pilots are just toughing it out, because in the long run, one can make a $200k+ a year in 705 with a great pension and lifestyle to boot.

Better than being a washed up, bitter 703 driver on avcanada shitting on regional or long haul aviation, trying to justify why they didn’t choose it, or still not over the fact they got PFO’d, probably due to the poor attitude they have evident by the types of posts they make online. I’m not shitting on those who chose 703 and have their heart in it, and are happy, but for many of you outspoken avcanada users...you are a dime a dozen on here and your bitterness and resentment is sickeningly obvious. I honestly am sad for you.

Jazz is still a good job. Jazz or AC don’t need to be “embarrassed” about, or justify their starting salaries, because it’s all supply and demand. Student pilots know the costs and what they are getting themselves into. So let them choose their own paths. Those of you saying they are screwing over the next generation of pilots by accepting jobs for low pay, you probably aren’t even working in 705, so politely screw off and worry about yourselves.
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rudder
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Re: Jazz Payscale Updated 2019

Post by rudder » Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:56 am

These are unprecedented times. There are opportunities for pilots with just 3 years in the industry to be CRJ Captains and for pilots with less than 8 years in the industry to be A320 and B737 Captains. This type of advancement rate through industry growth has not been seen since the 1970’s.

Yes, it is unfair that in part the pay seems to be more akin to that era. That must change. But it would appear that for now rapid advancement is the panacea for below standard entry level pay at several large CDN carriers.
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Re: Jazz Payscale Updated 2019

Post by Yieldermatik » Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:10 pm

LOL @ rich kids with nicely gelled hair...
bearitus wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:05 am
The FO demographic at Jazz is pretty well all single early to mid 20's rich kids with nicely gelled hair who get help from mom and dad and live at home or with roommates. I was shocked when I joined a year and a half ago and was one of the oldest and highest time guys in my class (I was only 27 at the time and had around 1500 hours).
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Re: Jazz Payscale Updated 2019

Post by Yieldermatik » Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:12 pm

I guess you're "going nowhere fast" then :lol:
goingnowherefast wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:57 am
All the Jazz FOs I know are doing one or more the following:
- living with mom and dad
- taking hand outs from the bank mom and dad
- brings a suitcase full of food from home so they can bank per diems.
- quit because they couldn't handle it.
- living like college kids with a bunch of room mates
- actively looking for a higher paying job and/or a side job

(one friend even mentioned swoop would be a pay raise, although that resulted in a debate based on swoop lifestyle and number of days worked)


In the mean time, I'm happy to be that "cranky old 703 captain" who's T4 income is half the price of his house. I'll consider Jazz or AC when the T4 number is half the cost of a 2500 sq ft house with a nice yard in Mississauga or Richmond.
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Re: Jazz Payscale Updated 2019

Post by V1Vr » Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:29 pm

Yieldermatik wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:10 pm
LOL @ rich kids with nicely gelled hair...
bearitus wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:05 am
The FO demographic at Jazz is pretty well all single early to mid 20's rich kids with nicely gelled hair who get help from mom and dad and live at home or with roommates. I was shocked when I joined a year and a half ago and was one of the oldest and highest time guys in my class (I was only 27 at the time and had around 1500 hours).
Rookies. Gel gunks up your headset.
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Re: Jazz Payscale Updated 2019

Post by mixturerich » Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:49 pm

goingnowherefast wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:57 am
All the Jazz FOs I know are doing one or more the following:
- living with mom and dad
- taking hand outs from the bank mom and dad
- brings a suitcase full of food from home so they can bank per diems.
- quit because they couldn't handle it.
- living like college kids with a bunch of room mates
- actively looking for a higher paying job and/or a side job
Lots of non-pilots living with and/or financially supported by their parents too.

I probably know a lot more Jazz FO’s than you and that’s not the way they’re living. Most I know are living pretty sweet lives with lots of friends in great cities, going skiing sometimes, hiking, biking, you name it, but most significantly using their awesome travel benefits to go on cheap and amazing trips. Those benefits alone are invaluable to many.

The future is bright, and it’s a pretty great way to tough it out if you ask me. Never touch a bag again, deal with pax, grooming, manually de-icing, etc etc etc. Barely even need to go outside anymore save for the walk around. Huge potential down the road to have a great schedule, benefits, salary, and job security.

I’m glad you aren’t grumpy where you are. It’s just kinda odd how outspoken you are against those that choose to fly regionally. I don’t want to speak for most regional pilots but generally they are extremely glad to have left the 703 lifestyle and flying behind, despite many fond memories. But to each his own.
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Re: Jazz Payscale Updated 2019

Post by V1Vr » Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:55 pm

mixturerich wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:49 pm
goingnowherefast wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:57 am
All the Jazz FOs I know are doing one or more the following:
- living with mom and dad
- taking hand outs from the bank mom and dad
- brings a suitcase full of food from home so they can bank per diems.
- quit because they couldn't handle it.
- living like college kids with a bunch of room mates
- actively looking for a higher paying job and/or a side job
Lots of non-pilots living with and/or financially supported by their parents too.

I probably know a lot more Jazz FO’s than you and that’s not the way they’re living. Most I know are living pretty sweet lives with lots of friends in great cities, going skiing sometimes, hiking, biking, you name it, but most significantly using their awesome travel benefits to go on cheap and amazing trips. Those benefits alone are invaluable to many.

The future is bright, and it’s a pretty great way to tough it out if you ask me. Never touch a bag again, deal with pax, grooming, manually de-icing, etc etc etc. Barely even need to go outside anymore save for the walk around. Huge potential down the road to have a great schedule, benefits, salary, and job security.

I’m glad you aren’t grumpy where you are. It’s just kinda odd how outspoken you are against those that choose to fly regionally. I don’t want to speak for most regional pilots but generally they are extremely glad to have left the 703 lifestyle and flying behind, despite many fond memories. But to each his own.
I agree. Most of the FOs I know travel more than I do!
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Re: Jazz Payscale Updated 2019

Post by mixturerich » Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:58 pm

V1Vr wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:29 pm
Yieldermatik wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:10 pm
LOL @ rich kids with nicely gelled hair...
bearitus wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:05 am
The FO demographic at Jazz is pretty well all single early to mid 20's rich kids with nicely gelled hair who get help from mom and dad and live at home or with roommates. I was shocked when I joined a year and a half ago and was one of the oldest and highest time guys in my class (I was only 27 at the time and had around 1500 hours).
Rookies. Gel gunks up your headset.
It’s actually kind of funny when you think about it...so many slick GQ Magazine pilot haircuts goin on. But the hat covers it up and the only people really seeing it are the other (mostly) men in the crew room. Kinda weird! We’re a strange bunch. I suppose one pre-flight lookback to the staring eyes of the pax makes it all worth it though, right? :p
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Re: Jazz Payscale Updated 2019

Post by goingnowherefast » Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:31 pm

I'm outspoken about the horrendous pay to fly a 70-something seat transport category aircraft. Also to the lengths pilots have to go to make ends meet on such low pay. Supposed to be professional airline pilots. But cheap labor is more important than respecting their employees.
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Re: Jazz Payscale Updated 2019

Post by mixturerich » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:13 am

goingnowherefast wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:31 pm
I'm outspoken about the horrendous pay to fly a 70-something seat transport category aircraft. Also to the lengths pilots have to go to make ends meet on such low pay. Supposed to be professional airline pilots. But cheap labor is more important than respecting their employees.
Well, it’s supply and demand as far as pay goes. It’s not about respect. It’s about business. This is the way the world turns. As for making ends meet...it’s still way better than working the ramp in -30 or coated in mosquitos for 3 years, then sitting 3 years left seat in a light twin, then maybe upgrading, then 3 more years before having even a chance to get to 705. With a quick upgrade and a seniority number at a young age, nowadays it’s a pretty good deal. Can’t blame people for getting in while the progression and movement is so good, despite the pay.
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Re: Jazz Payscale Updated 2019

Post by goingnowherefast » Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:12 pm

pre-2015 when Jazz starting pay was significantly better, they were hiring 703 and 704 captains with 4000+ hours. Pay was equivalent to ~$45500 in 2019 dollars. That's the experience they wanted and they got it with that pay.

All of a sudden, they decided that was too much money and pay dropped significantly. Of course they were unable to attract such experienced candidates anymore. Undeterred, they allowed experience in 705 category aircraft flying under the brand of Canada's national airline to drop to unprecedented levels.

Now pay is so low that inexperienced pilots have to go to unprofessional lengths to make ends meet. And apparently that's okay.

This isn't an attack on the pilots. $37 grand isn't bad pay for a 500 hour pilot. If I had 500 hours and had the option of a Q400 or a clapped out 206, I'd have a tough time deciding (I hate big expensive cities, so that would factor into it too). Just that 500 hour pilots belong in a 206 or the right seat of a King Air. Not in a CRJ900.
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Re: Jazz Payscale Updated 2019

Post by C-GGGQ » Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:16 pm

goingnowherefast wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:12 pm
pre-2015 when Jazz starting pay was significantly better, they were hiring 703 and 704 captains with 4000+ hours. Pay was equivalent to ~$45500 in 2019 dollars. That's the experience they wanted and they got it with that pay.

All of a sudden, they decided that was too much money and pay dropped significantly. Of course they were unable to attract such experienced candidates anymore. Undeterred, they allowed experience in 705 category aircraft flying under the brand of Canada's national airline to drop to unprecedented levels.

Now pay is so low that inexperienced pilots have to go to unprofessional lengths to make ends meet. And apparently that's okay.

This isn't an attack on the pilots. $37 grand isn't bad pay for a 500 hour pilot. If I had 500 hours and had the option of a Q400 or a clapped out 206, I'd have a tough time deciding (I hate big expensive cities, so that would factor into it too). Just that 500 hour pilots belong in a 206 or the right seat of a King Air. Not in a CRJ900.
Why not? Is there a huge difference between right seat king air/ Metro and a q400 or a crj? Other than the guy in the king air had to "prove himself" on the ramp to get his shot? Which we all say guys should stop doing anyway? So it's a handful more passengers? That's shouldn't matter passengers are passengers. Pressurized, rvsm, congested airspace. All part of crj or king air.
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Re: Jazz Payscale Updated 2019

Post by goingnowherefast » Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:40 pm

King Airs are more forgiving than a classic dash. Never flown a Q400, but I'd imagine they're pretty quick to get ahead of unprepared pilots too, jets even quicker again.

705 systems are more complex, malfunctions are more complex and harder to diagnose. More going on in terms of FAs, dispatch, ATC, MELs, CDLs, etc. at 500 hours, a pilot should be cementing their stick and rudder skills flying that no autopilot King Air or decision making abilities in the clapped out 206. Not racing at mach .76 into congested airspace with no understanding of the implications of the MEL or the implications of the other systems abnormality they're experiencing and unable to prioritise the QRH or the STAR.

Pilots shouldn't have to "prove themselves" on the ramp, that's also just cheap labour.
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Re: Jazz Payscale Updated 2019

Post by C-GGGQ » Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:50 pm

At this point though many if not most new pilots aren't flying around in clapped out 206's those jobs aren't numerous anymore, most just instruct. Fine it's not a king air it's a Merlin, mu-2, something with more teeth. It's loud, no autopilot, no fms, old steam guages. I'd argue it's more to handle.
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Re: Jazz Payscale Updated 2019

Post by TheSocialChameleon » Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:38 pm

My first year pay as an FO is as follows.

Gross $44,550
Per Diems $14,380

Total: $58,930
I only worked 5 WDO's (overtime days) the whole year.
Per Diems are tax free cash. As you can tell the per diems add a big chunk to the low base pay.

I posted this not for a debate but to show anyone interested what's a real life year 1 income.
Cheers
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Re: Jazz Payscale Updated 2019

Post by Yycjetdriver » Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:44 pm

TheSocialChameleon wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:38 pm
My first year pay as an FO is as follows.

Gross $44,550
Per Diems $14,380

Total: $58,930
I only worked 5 WDO's (overtime days) the whole year.
Per Diems are tax free cash. As you can tell the per diems add a big chunk to the low base pay.

I posted this not for a debate but to show anyone interested what's a real life year 1 income.
Cheers
Ohhhhh shit, make it raaaiiinnn!
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Re: Jazz Payscale Updated 2019

Post by TheSocialChameleon » Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:06 pm

In addition to the above numbers of almost $60K year 1 FO.
I averaged about 15-18 DAYS OFF a month.

Compared that with friends at SKY Regional who work 18 days a month. They always say they earn more money.
But, it's how you make your money that's also important. I could've made more if I worked those same days.

At the end of the day you want to have a life beside flying and enjoy your days off with family.
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Last edited by TheSocialChameleon on Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jazz Payscale Updated 2019

Post by C-GGGQ » Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:12 pm

Hey I won't knock that. I did roughly the same every year trucking but I worked 300+ days a year some years. 26+ days a month. I guarantee no Jazz pilot went 6 days between showers in the middle of nowhere. 38k sounds really bad, but if that's not the reality people need to know. 58-60 even if you count the per-diems is still money in your pocket.
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Re: Jazz Payscale Updated 2019

Post by HansDietrich » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:41 pm

TheSocialChameleon wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:38 pm
My first year pay as an FO is as follows.

Gross $44,550
Per Diems $14,380

Total: $58,930
I only worked 5 WDO's (overtime days) the whole year.
Per Diems are tax free cash. As you can tell the per diems add a big chunk to the low base pay.

I posted this not for a debate but to show anyone interested what's a real life year 1 income.
Cheers

I'm sorry, but I find that hard to believe. My first year at Jazz I did more like 38K - 40K (MAX) not working any overtime. How many credits per month did you get?
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Re: Jazz Payscale Updated 2019

Post by FOD_Vacuum » Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:24 pm

HansDietrich wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:41 pm
TheSocialChameleon wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:38 pm
My first year pay as an FO is as follows.

Gross $44,550
Per Diems $14,380

Total: $58,930
I only worked 5 WDO's (overtime days) the whole year.
Per Diems are tax free cash. As you can tell the per diems add a big chunk to the low base pay.

I posted this not for a debate but to show anyone interested what's a real life year 1 income.
Cheers

I'm sorry, but I find that hard to believe. My first year at Jazz I did more like 38K - 40K (MAX) not working any overtime. How many credits per month did you get?
Maybe Air Canada??? Hah. How does it feel when Pasco first year FO pay is now $41.03 per credit hour and 80 guantanteed hours per month. Per diem is $4.25 per duty hour so about 150 per month which means $637. $3282+637= $3920 before taxes. Yearly is $47,033 as B1900 FO and that doesnt include OT of average $3000 extra a year so $50k first year working 14-15 days a month. OT kicks in at 85 hours and there is a min guaranteed day pay of 4.5 hours. You never report before 6am and the latest checkout is around 8:30pm. Plus flight benefits and covered MSP, many other benefits, besides 705 time on a dash, what’s the real other draw at Jazz, especially now that the new payscale is still shitty?
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Re: Jazz Payscale Updated 2019

Post by proper » Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:47 am

The endless battles of who's shit smells the least....

Go out and either change your job, or accept and go enjoy time with your families.

I spend far too much time on these web boards already... Reading whiny people bitch about fixed variables.... Oor plainly spreading lies....
On my deathbed I'm sure I will regret not posting more.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Good day ladies and gents
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Re: Jazz Payscale Updated 2019

Post by mbav8r » Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:04 am

FOD_Vacuum wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:24 pm
HansDietrich wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:41 pm
TheSocialChameleon wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:38 pm
My first year pay as an FO is as follows.

Gross $44,550
Per Diems $14,380

Total: $58,930
I only worked 5 WDO's (overtime days) the whole year.
Per Diems are tax free cash. As you can tell the per diems add a big chunk to the low base pay.

I posted this not for a debate but to show anyone interested what's a real life year 1 income.
Cheers

I'm sorry, but I find that hard to believe. My first year at Jazz I did more like 38K - 40K (MAX) not working any overtime. How many credits per month did you get?
Maybe Air Canada??? Hah. How does it feel when Pasco first year FO pay is now $41.03 per credit hour and 80 guantanteed hours per month. Per diem is $4.25 per duty hour so about 150 per month which means $637. $3282+637= $3920 before taxes. Yearly is $47,033 as B1900 FO and that doesnt include OT of average $3000 extra a year so $50k first year working 14-15 days a month. OT kicks in at 85 hours and there is a min guaranteed day pay of 4.5 hours. You never report before 6am and the latest checkout is around 8:30pm. Plus flight benefits and covered MSP, many other benefits, besides 705 time on a dash, what’s the real other draw at Jazz, especially now that the new payscale is still shitty?
Well, FOD considering the first year pay is 40.00 per credit hour and we average 80 per month between high block windows and the normal blocks, pretty equal there. Our per diems are 93.10/day, a four day pairing will get approx 350-370x 4=1400-1500 per month for block holders. OT also triggered at 85, easily accessible via the FLICA app, you have us beat on check in and check out times, those are all over the place but the choices of where we fly are also varied significantly. What possible flight benefits could you have that beats AC passes and the interline passes? Our benefits are second to none, anytime I use them, the providers always remark on the coverage, they are expensive but the company covers half the cost. The STD and LTD are the biggest cost but well worth it, ask anybody who’s had to use them, the amount works out to essentially the same amount in the bank and if you transition to LTD your pension is covered by the company. Are you really comparing time on a 1900 or slob340 to the three types we have, the dash classic is being phased out in favour of new CRJ 900s, in 5 years we will have no 50 seat anything. I also noticed you didn’t mention pension, is that because there isn’t one or just not worth mentioning?
The last reason, 90% of the pilots who apply at AC will get hired, so there’s that.
Now, all that being said, congratulations on paying 47,000 for 1900 FO, there’s a reason for that though, perhaps it’s because most pilots are choosing the Express route, pun intended, to Air Canada, with a great future at Jazz if they don’t make it.
Pasco, is hiring DEC and offering signing bonuses for a reason, Jazz is not there yet, not even close.
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Re: Jazz Payscale Updated 2019

Post by mixturerich » Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:40 am

goingnowherefast wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:12 pm
Just that 500 hour pilots belong in a 206 or the right seat of a King Air. Not in a CRJ900.
That’s just your opinion, and the airlines disagree. They’re the experts.

Would you really choose a C206 over a Q400 at 500 hours? Don’t pretend to be so morally superior to everyone else because you would potentially choose the 206 because things are safer that way. If you really had a choice like that at 500hrs, you’d choose the Q400. Don’t bullshit us.
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Re: Jazz Payscale Updated 2019

Post by flyingcanuck » Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:08 am

mixturerich wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:40 am
goingnowherefast wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:12 pm
Just that 500 hour pilots belong in a 206 or the right seat of a King Air. Not in a CRJ900.
That’s just your opinion, and the airlines disagree. They’re the experts.

Would you really choose a C206 over a Q400 at 500 hours? Don’t pretend to be so morally superior to everyone else because you would potentially choose the 206 because things are safer that way. If you really had a choice like that at 500hrs, you’d choose the Q400. Don’t bullshit us.
Totally agree. Everyone likes to shit on the college grads going straight to, but everyone single one of us would take that deal in a heart beat
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