Classic, Q or jet?

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link821
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Classic, Q or jet?

Post by link821 »

Working towards getting out of the north and into Jazz in the next year and for me getting my home base (yvr) would mean more then the aircraft I get. But I am wondering if anyone can give some brief pros and cons to each aircraft as far as the amount of flying, type of flying and some general opinions from those who are there now.

Kind regards.
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GhostRider6
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Re: Classic, Q or jet?

Post by GhostRider6 »

Hey!

From what I gather...everyone is on the same pay scale regardless of type.

Also lifestyle varies if you want to do reserve E- AM, A- PM, or B- ( nights) - you’ll work more days on Reserve. Or, alternatively, you can bid pairings. ( less days worked)

Lifestyle will depend on staffing levels when on reserve. If the company is well staffed chances are you’ll be able to go to the beach on a summer day while on RES. If staffing levels are less than adequate you an fly your bag off on reserve as well.

Classic

Being reduced out of YVR :(
So.. that’ll make this section easier

Q:

5-8 legs per day
Lots of island hopping
Frequent crew changes ( Q drivers- feel free to correct)
Community overnights

RJ

Far less legs per day
Trans border flying
Quite long legs for aircraft type.
But overnights in places like : Houston , San Diego, Saskatoon, YWG, YXY.
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rudder
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Re: Classic, Q or jet?

Post by rudder »

Prop = shorter flights/more flights per duty day

Jet = longer flights/fewer flights per duty day

Like any airline, seniority on the roster makes a huge difference. Junior works more days, less desirable trips including stand up overnights. Senior has much more control.

You are type locked for 4 years unless upgrading. If you cannot hold preferred airplane type on first choice base might be wise to pick same aircraft on different base and wait for vacancy to transfer to first choice base.
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rudder
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Re: Classic, Q or jet?

Post by rudder »

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GhostRider6
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Re: Classic, Q or jet?

Post by GhostRider6 »

Hey!

No problem! Glad it helped.

Lots of other people have good information on here too!

There’s also lots of changes happening at the moment it seems..

Another thing to keep in mind, is that things are always subject to what mainline wants. So bases and equipment gets moved around.. In other words, Jazz is at the whim of mainline and whichever direction the wind blows and what works best for them. Just something to consider..

Whereas, working for an airline, which has its own flying tends to be more stable in some respects..
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link821
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Re: Classic, Q or jet?

Post by link821 »

GhostRider6 wrote: Sun Feb 17, 2019 2:27 pm Hey!

No problem! Glad it helped.

Lots of other people have good information on here too!

There’s also lots of changes happening at the moment it seems..

Another thing to keep in mind, is that things are always subject to what mainline wants. So bases and equipment gets moved around.. In other words, Jazz is at the whim of mainline and whichever direction the wind blows and what works best for them. Just something to consider..

Whereas, working for an airline, which has its own flying tends to be more stable in some respects..
Fair point! Cant say i really understand everything that went on with the new TA but from my outside view it sounds like job security for the next 17 years and a good shot at AC if one so desires?

Also from what I've read it seems like out of all the regionals (in Canada) Jazz is one of if not the better option.
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GhostRider6
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Re: Classic, Q or jet?

Post by GhostRider6 »

All very fair points on your end!

I’m not sure if your familial situation but Jazz DOES have amazing benefits that You’d be hard pressed to match. There is also a degree of flexibility in that you could move to diversify into things like safety, training etc. ( quite far down the road)

Also, you won’t be pressured to do stupid stuff! The company is HUGE on safety in many respects. The company cannot not afford to not be safety conscious. ( I won’t get into the 250 pilot topic though)

On the other hand, companies like Pasco are handing out bonuses etc. but with less benefits.

As for the TA, people were provided in the ballpark of two weeks to research and sign vote.
Two weeks for 17 years... hmmm. But yes, there is a element of stability. On the other hand, look how far jazz got into the last PMl before “re-negotiating.”

But yes, you are correct... a fair shot at AC

The start pay is low. I had friends who went to Jazz making 100K at their 703/704 /705 captain /FO jobs north of 60. They ended up having to sell their houses..They counted on quick upgrades that never came.

Again, everything aside ,I’d agree, one is the better MAJOR regional for sure.

Also consider, that there is NO “ PML” at Jazz. It’s a PIL ( pilot interview list). Lots of guys/gals get confused here...

Have a look at what happened in the last two years... (“WJ the new PML to AC”)

Again, AC will follow to contract provided it serves them..

Go with the idea that you could be PFO’d from AC and could end up staying. ( Again, PIL vs PML) If that’s ok with you! Give er! It’s a decent place to hang your hat! Also, keep in mind that the music could stop at some point. Would you be cool with sitting at Jazz’s FO pay for a significant time period?

You could also look at: porter, Canadian North, Air North, Nolinor, Northern Caribou, Sunwest, Air Inuit, Pasco.. Pay is better at many of these places, minus the phenomenal benefits ..

At the end of the day, you need to figure out what will work for YOU, YOUR FAMILY and YOUR LIfESTYLE. ( and your family if you have one) Also, don’t forget, what you’ll need to survive as a human being..

And you are on the right track figuring this out..

If that’s Jazz.. have at er! If it’s something else give er!


Best of luck !
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Outlaw58
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Re: Classic, Q or jet?

Post by Outlaw58 »

GhostRider6 wrote: Mon Feb 18, 2019 9:25 am ... The company cannot not afford to not be safety conscious....
Had to read that 3 times...

Have a look at what happened in the last two years... (“WJ the new PML to AC”)
Be careful there and keep in mind that everything in aviation is cyclical. Don't base your decision on what you are observing now, instead assess the trend. In my particular case, When. I joined, I expected quick upgrade cause that was the norm at the time. Last year, folks joined WJ Encore cause AC was mostly hiring from them; now I think they will be surprised that the WJ train has come to a stop and that hiring will once again shift toward Jazz. Hard to predict I agree, but be aware of that reality.

Would you be cool with sitting at Jazz’s FO pay for a significant time period?
Jazz FO pay takes a significant up turn at the 5 year mark. IMHO, I don't think upgrades go to 5 year in the short to medium term... But if that were the case, past 5 years, most folks can survive on FO pay.

Best of luck from me too!

58
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rudder
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Re: Classic, Q or jet?

Post by rudder »

Jazz is not everybody’s cup of tea. But it is worthy of consideration depending on the expectations of the applicant.

The embarrassingly low starting pay that lasts for several years is a problem for any potential experienced applicant bringing meaningful experience to Jazz and who would otherwise be upgradeable at the earliest opportunity. And in terms of upgrade opportunities - they may not come as fast as you want, on the equipment that you want, or on the base that you want. And a quick upgrade is a ticket to a very junior schedule. It will either be reserve or some very undesirable pairings including a lot of standup overnight duty periods. You will work every statutory holiday. Movement up the roster will be slow as attrition rates of the senior pilots is fairly low.

What Jazz does offer is generally superior working conditions and benefits in an airline environment. Jazz is one if the largest airlines in Canada with crew bases from east to west giving flight crew many choices on which part of the country they would prefer to reside in. Jazz has a fully developed airline support infrastructure and apart from the destinations and equipment Jazz very closely mirrors the mainline in terms of the role of the pilot in day to day operations.

There are some recent college grads who find themselves flying a jet at Jazz and spending layovers in SAN and SFO. They did indeed win the lottery. But that is just a small part of the much larger Jazz operation. Others in their class drew the older Dash 8 and their pairings, route network, and overnights look much different.

Job satisfaction is a function of expectations. Understand the entry level pay and do not assume an upgrade in 12 months. Understand that equipment and base choices on initial training may not include your first, second, or third choice. Understand that the opportunity to interview at AC will come in seniority order for those Jazz pilots that meet the minimum hiring standard at AC.

With Jazz expecting to send hundreds of pilots per year to AC, Jazz would be better served to attract the most qualified applicants. That is not currently the case due to below industry standard starting pay. Hopefully that shortcoming will cause Jazz to revisit new-hire compensation.
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mbav8r
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Re: Classic, Q or jet?

Post by mbav8r »

Also consider, that there is NO “ PML” at Jazz. It’s a PIL ( pilot interview list). Lots of guys/gals get confused here.
Ghostrider, if you consider that 90% of those who apply are offered a job in order of seniority which is written into the contract a PIL, I don’t know what to tell you. It’s a close to a guarantee as you can get, not to mention, you qualify with the same criteria as OTS which is monitored for compliance. 90% of qualified applicants means if you don’t qualify you don’t count in the numbers and are free to apply when you do qualify.
Next, regarding your “friends” who sold their houses, how many are we talking about here? I mean, it took 9 years before I could hold a left seat and granted the starting pay is lower now, I managed to pay my mortgage on FO pay and no, my wife is not making significant money. We also raised kids and put them through university, both done before my upgrade.
How many people make 40 grand right out of school, that’s the majority of new hires? I know people who make 30 grand after finishing their chosen degree.
Overall, Jazz conditions far outweighs any other regional in Canada, this 17 year deal almost certainly guaranteed all Express feed will be done by Jazz.
When the music stops, I would think being at Jazz would be much better than Encore and Swoop. Anyone know what retirements look like at WJ, I know they have a relatively young group of pilots.
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link821
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Re: Classic, Q or jet?

Post by link821 »

Thanks everyone for all the great info and insights, greatly appreciated!
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GhostRider6
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Re: Classic, Q or jet?

Post by GhostRider6 »

Hi there,

I tried to go as middle of the road with my post(s) as possible.

Regardless, my friends left their respective companies and came to Jazz and are still there. It came at the cost of having to sell some assets due to low pay. Again, they are still there.

I will disagree that the majority of new hires are 250 hour pilots. I know many who have come off of anything from king airs to Dash 8’s, B1900’s up to 737’s to come to jazz. These guys are hardly inexperienced operators.This probably speaks to the PML/ the reputation of the company ... and that jazz is a decent spot.

I agreed that Jazz “ has a fair shot “ at AC.

I also said jazz is a “ decent place to hang your hat” (from what I’ve heard. ) looks like everyone agrees there.

I also said that : “Again, everything aside ,I’d agree, Jazz one is the better MAJOR regionals for sure.” So we for sure agree there.

For someone making 40 K at a first job I’d agree it’s pretty sweet. No bosses with arguable sanity, no overloaded flying, benefits, no horrific WX no planes that have questionable airworthiness at best. Yup! It’s totally sweet for them. I disagree with it though.

I’m not in HR, I’m not in GS so I can’t comment on who is coming through. However, like I said, I run into lots of 1500-5000 hour guys who come over.

Id be willing to bet the OP falls into this category.

I think I’ve mistakenly hijacked this into a jazz a pros vs cons of jazz thread.

Maybe, given the bid, everyone can chime in on the OP’s questions. I’m sure everyone could benefit and is probably curious about the stated questions by the OP.

Classic, Q or RJ? Pros vs Cons?
Expected upgrade times? Lifestyle? Days worked ?
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link821
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Re: Classic, Q or jet?

Post by link821 »

I know many who have come off of anything from king airs to Dash 8’s, B1900’s up to 737’s to come to jazz. These guys are hardly inexperienced operators.


Hopefully the clapped out chieftains in the worst weather imaginable is sufficient experience to get me in the door?
think I’ve mistakenly hijacked this into a jazz a pros vs cons of jazz thread.

Maybe, given the bid, everyone can chime in on the OP’s questions. I’m sure everyone could benefit and is probably curious about the stated questions by the OP.

Classic, Q or RJ? Pros vs Cons?
Expected upgrade times? Lifestyle? Days worked ?


My opinion of Jazz is somewhat biased having family and relatives that worked there in the past who ended up "hanging their hats up" at Jazz but obviously things have changed since. Flying in the Northern parts of Canada has put in perspective the importance to me of quality of life outside of work.
I guess to re-word my initial question, is there a noticeable difference in life style between the equipment Jazz operates.

Thanks again for all the helpful information.
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mbav8r
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Re: Classic, Q or jet?

Post by mbav8r »

link821 wrote: Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:55 pm
I know many who have come off of anything from king airs to Dash 8’s, B1900’s up to 737’s to come to jazz. These guys are hardly inexperienced operators.


Hopefully the clapped out chieftains in the worst weather imaginable is sufficient experience to get me in the door?
think I’ve mistakenly hijacked this into a jazz a pros vs cons of jazz thread.

Maybe, given the bid, everyone can chime in on the OP’s questions. I’m sure everyone could benefit and is probably curious about the stated questions by the OP.

Classic, Q or RJ? Pros vs Cons?
Expected upgrade times? Lifestyle? Days worked ?


My opinion of Jazz is somewhat biased having family and relatives that worked there in the past who ended up "hanging their hats up" at Jazz but obviously things have changed since. Flying in the Northern parts of Canada has put in perspective the importance to me of quality of life outside of work.
SO to re-word my initial question, is there a noticeable difference in life style between the equipment Jazz operates.

Thanks again for all the helpful information.
Yes, but there are many variables to what constitutes a lifestyle difference, as a commuter you may find a better lifestyle on the Jet but that will also depend on where you commute from. The jet may not overnight where you commute from or it might now but not next month, which will affect lifestyle. The Q or Dash generally stay within two time zones but have more legs per day typically which add to the fatigue that you will experience on your first couple days off.
If you’re not a commuter, the pairings for each equipment type are supposed to have the same ratio of single day to four day pairings, so seniority will play a huge roll in lifestyle, that in itself will vary by base and equipment and time. Right now out West, seniority will improve faster on Q and RJ but that’s right now.
From my biased opinion, the RJ will give you a better overall mix of everything that improves lifestyle and job satisfaction, I can say that as I’ve been on all three types.
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link821
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Re: Classic, Q or jet?

Post by link821 »

Yes, but there are many variables to what constitutes a lifestyle difference, as a commuter you may find a better lifestyle on the Jet but that will also depend on where you commute from. The jet may not overnight where you commute from or it might now but not next month, which will affect lifestyle. The Q or Dash generally stay within two time zones but have more legs per day typically which add to the fatigue that you will experience on your first couple days off.
If you’re not a commuter, the pairings for each equipment type are supposed to have the same ratio of single day to four day pairings, so seniority will play a huge roll in lifestyle, that in itself will vary by base and equipment and time. Right now out West, seniority will improve faster on Q and RJ but that’s right now.
From my biased opinion, the RJ will give you a better overall mix of everything that improves lifestyle and job satisfaction, I can say that as I’ve been on all three types.
so you upgraded twice then? or are your frozen on type as a captain too?
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goleafsgo
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Re: Classic, Q or jet?

Post by goleafsgo »

link821 wrote: Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:12 pm
Yes, but there are many variables to what constitutes a lifestyle difference, as a commuter you may find a better lifestyle on the Jet but that will also depend on where you commute from. The jet may not overnight where you commute from or it might now but not next month, which will affect lifestyle. The Q or Dash generally stay within two time zones but have more legs per day typically which add to the fatigue that you will experience on your first couple days off.
If you’re not a commuter, the pairings for each equipment type are supposed to have the same ratio of single day to four day pairings, so seniority will play a huge roll in lifestyle, that in itself will vary by base and equipment and time. Right now out West, seniority will improve faster on Q and RJ but that’s right now.
From my biased opinion, the RJ will give you a better overall mix of everything that improves lifestyle and job satisfaction, I can say that as I’ve been on all three types.
so you upgraded twice then? or are your frozen on type as a captain too?
You only get frozen on an upgrade if you do on a new type. If you're a q fo and upgrade to q captain you're not frozen a 2nd time
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AHerrera
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Re: Classic, Q or jet?

Post by AHerrera »

Hi there. I am curious about how things have changed in the last year.
I am hoping to get a spot in the near future and will be commuting from VAncouver Island.

Does anyone have an insight on what the best choice would be for the YVR base?
I've heard the RJ has a long wait on reserve which would be worse as a commuter. Roughly how long would it take to get off reserve and hold a block.
Would getting on the Q be a better short term solution? From what I have been told, the RJ is generally more desirable for commuters as you can get more credits per day worked and not do as many commutes. Would that be a fair assumption? But if it takes 6 months to get off reserve than maybe holding a block on the Q makes more sense.

Just interested in other peoples opinions. Especially anyone new-ish who lives on Vancouver Island.

Cheers
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av8ts
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Re: Classic, Q or jet?

Post by av8ts »

AHerrera wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2020 12:17 pm Hi there. I am curious about how things have changed in the last year.
I am hoping to get a spot in the near future and will be commuting from VAncouver Island.

Does anyone have an insight on what the best choice would be for the YVR base?
I've heard the RJ has a long wait on reserve which would be worse as a commuter. Roughly how long would it take to get off reserve and hold a block.
Would getting on the Q be a better short term solution? From what I have been told, the RJ is generally more desirable for commuters as you can get more credits per day worked and not do as many commutes. Would that be a fair assumption? But if it takes 6 months to get off reserve than maybe holding a block on the Q makes more sense.

Just interested in other peoples opinions. Especially anyone new-ish who lives on Vancouver Island.

Cheers
Looks like in the equipment bid out today there will be DEC on the Q in YVR
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AHerrera
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Re: Classic, Q or jet?

Post by AHerrera »

av8ts wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2020 12:26 pm
AHerrera wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2020 12:17 pm Hi there. I am curious about how things have changed in the last year.
I am hoping to get a spot in the near future and will be commuting from VAncouver Island.

Does anyone have an insight on what the best choice would be for the YVR base?
I've heard the RJ has a long wait on reserve which would be worse as a commuter. Roughly how long would it take to get off reserve and hold a block.
Would getting on the Q be a better short term solution? From what I have been told, the RJ is generally more desirable for commuters as you can get more credits per day worked and not do as many commutes. Would that be a fair assumption? But if it takes 6 months to get off reserve than maybe holding a block on the Q makes more sense.

Just interested in other peoples opinions. Especially anyone new-ish who lives on Vancouver Island.

Cheers
Looks like in the equipment bid out today there will be DEC on the Q in YVR
Thanks for the reply.
Obviously that would be good for pay but would you think schedule wise that would be a commutable position? Or are you saying these are positions with no reserve?
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flyingcanuck
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Re: Classic, Q or jet?

Post by flyingcanuck »

Definitely would be on reserve, so youd need a crashpad depending where youre coming from
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