AC flow agreement

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vrefplus5
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AC flow agreement

Post by vrefplus5 » Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:51 pm

Just wondering when this 60% class component of Express candidates for AC PIT course takes effect? The July 22nd class was all OTS, so clearly not yet. Just curious. Thanks.
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FL-280
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Re: AC flow agreement

Post by FL-280 » Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:25 pm

It's already in effect....
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goleafsgo
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Re: AC flow agreement

Post by goleafsgo » Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:33 pm

vrefplus5 wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:51 pm
Just wondering when this 60% class component of Express candidates for AC PIT course takes effect? The July 22nd class was all OTS, so clearly not yet. Just curious. Thanks.
It's 60% annually as far as I know. So they're allowed to do some classes that are all OTS
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Warden
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Re: AC flow agreement

Post by Warden » Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:38 pm

It's been in effect since April 1st in regards to the offers in seniority and no more than %10 turn down rate.

The %60 is based on annual numbers, not per class.

The majority of new hires since April 1st have been from Jazz.

From my understanding, Jazz has been cancelling an absurd amount of flights which are Air Canada paying passengers and Air Canada flights.

The "flow" agreement was predicated on the GGN pilots moving to Jazz, and by doing so increasing the pilot supply at Jazz allowing AC to take a lot of Jazz pilots.

Since the 737 MAX has been grounded and the GGN planes are still flying (since pulling the planes off line to be inspected for Jazz, and the pilots to go through initial training would reduce overall AC lift in a time of need) you are seeing less Jazz pilots go over right now but sill WAY more than we've seen per class over the last 3-4 years. Additionally the ground schools at AC are smaller than originally planned with many hovering around the 24 pilots per class with a few larger 40+, vs what was originally planned at multiple 40+ new hire classes a month. So you may think you're "missing out" on seniority, when in fact AC has been hiring less pilots so the net loss in seniority may be close to NIL.

As the GGN pilots start to move over this fall to Jazz you will see the overall amount of Jazz pilots getting offers at AC increase. Currently AC is close to the %60 minimum, and by taking a break right now in order to keep the integrity of the AC route structure all they will need to do is have majority Jazz pilots come fall in all the classes to make up for it. AC is still interviewing many, many Jazz pilots each week so things have not slowed down in that respect. Just the offers are on pause until likely September (although I know a bunch of Jazz pilots who will be in the August 12th class).

So in so many words, keep calm and don't worry.
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av8ts
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Re: AC flow agreement

Post by av8ts » Fri Jul 26, 2019 1:03 pm

Warden wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:38 pm

From my understanding, Jazz has been cancelling an absurd amount of flights which are Air Canada paying passengers and Air Canada flights.
Define absurd. Because I would dispute the accuracy of that statement
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Inverted2
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Re: AC flow agreement

Post by Inverted2 » Fri Jul 26, 2019 1:13 pm

2 years ago they cancelled an absurd amount of flights due to pilot shortage but I don’t think I’ve heard of that this year. I haven’t had too many calls for overtime this year.
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Re: AC flow agreement

Post by Rowdy » Fri Jul 26, 2019 1:30 pm

The word I heard was 90 flights cancelled last weekend. I've been called multiple times every day off I've had in July and offered overtime. Without being on the WDO tracker. I finally had to ask to be put on the no call list. How is it legal or right for them to be able to call at 3am on a day off?!?!?

In my opinion we are most certainly short crews. You can see it when you look at the baselines and then the number of FO's on certain machines. Big gaps. Also lots of flying sitting in open, especially out west.

There have been a plethora of Jazz pilots in the last few AC PIT courses. I know the august course is also stacked with jazz pilots. A great time for anyone wanting to go to AC.
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Re: AC flow agreement

Post by Warden » Fri Jul 26, 2019 4:16 pm

av8ts wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 1:03 pm
Warden wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:38 pm

From my understanding, Jazz has been cancelling an absurd amount of flights which are Air Canada paying passengers and Air Canada flights.
Define absurd. Because I would dispute the accuracy of that statement
I heard over 90 in YVR last week or the week before (can't remember which) alone. And just due to crewing, not including other cancellations.
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Re: AC flow agreement

Post by Warden » Fri Jul 26, 2019 4:18 pm

Rowdy wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 1:30 pm
The word I heard was 90 flights cancelled last weekend. I've been called multiple times every day off I've had in July and offered overtime. Without being on the WDO tracker. I finally had to ask to be put on the no call list. How is it legal or right for them to be able to call at 3am on a day off?!?!?

In my opinion we are most certainly short crews. You can see it when you look at the baselines and then the number of FO's on certain machines. Big gaps. Also lots of flying sitting in open, especially out west.

There have been a plethora of Jazz pilots in the last few AC PIT courses. I know the august course is also stacked with jazz pilots. A great time for anyone wanting to go to AC.
This is what I heard too. A friend of mine said they can basically count on being called at least twice a day, every day. Once for day stuff, once for the inevitable stand up. I think a lot of people have been putting themselves on the "no call" list.

Rowdy, if you don't want to get called at 3AM but don't want to be on the no call list try the do not disturb mode on your phone where you can silence it for a certain time and allow calls through after say 8-9am. That way you won't be woken up at 3AM but a call at 8-9 would go through.
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Re: AC flow agreement

Post by goingnowherefast » Fri Jul 26, 2019 5:03 pm

If they're cancelling that many flights, how come they didn't bother with attractive pay packages with the recent TA?
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Re: AC flow agreement

Post by Warden » Fri Jul 26, 2019 5:08 pm

goingnowherefast wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 5:03 pm
If they're cancelling that many flights, how come they didn't bother with attractive pay packages with the recent TA?
You forget there's 220 GGN pilots slated to come over. I don't think Jazz will have any trouble finding new hires, just look at the thread here about how many people are in the pool? They just haven't been hiring many OTS since they have to take all the GGN pilots and would then end up thick on the rosters once that happened. Now finding pilots ready to upgrade may be a different story. I bet Jazz will start offering DEC before the end of next year. My wager, anyhow.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: AC flow agreement

Post by goingnowherefast » Fri Jul 26, 2019 5:44 pm

Better come up with a good agreement for DEC. Have a continual flow of upgrading FOs to keep you at the bottom of the captain seniority list for years. Doesn't sound attractive to those interested.
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fish4life
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Re: AC flow agreement

Post by fish4life » Fri Jul 26, 2019 7:35 pm

Doesn’t the flow agreement have some sort of “unless operationally required provision?”
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Re: AC flow agreement

Post by Warden » Fri Jul 26, 2019 7:47 pm

fish4life wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 7:35 pm
Doesn’t the flow agreement have some sort of “unless operationally required provision?”
It says parties will meet to discuss if required, but no set policy meaning the company likely needs to make a solid case for not abiding by the flow.

That being said, I don't get what the concern is I just went through the new hire bios since April and there's a lot of JAZZ. Just because one class is all OTS doesn't mean much. They are interviewing Jazz pilots non stop right now, likely for Sept/Oct full bore hiring mode.
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Warden
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Re: AC flow agreement

Post by Warden » Fri Jul 26, 2019 7:49 pm

goingnowherefast wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 5:44 pm
Better come up with a good agreement for DEC. Have a continual flow of upgrading FOs to keep you at the bottom of the captain seniority list for years. Doesn't sound attractive to those interested.
Good. The less people that want to come DEC the better. Then when they can't upgrade anyone there will be a pinch and finally have no choice but to raise pay.

Look at Envoy, starting FO $50 USD an hour. CommutAir $50,000 USD signing bonus with 1000 Pt 121 time. Canada is not the USA... yes, but it's only a matter of time before we start seeing a few minor gains (I doubt we'll ever see US level pay but an increase is better than no increase).
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Re: AC flow agreement

Post by Rowdy » Sun Jul 28, 2019 8:34 pm

Warden wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 4:18 pm

This is what I heard too. A friend of mine said they can basically count on being called at least twice a day, every day. Once for day stuff, once for the inevitable stand up. I think a lot of people have been putting themselves on the "no call" list.

Rowdy, if you don't want to get called at 3AM but don't want to be on the no call list try the do not disturb mode on your phone where you can silence it for a certain time and allow calls through after say 8-9am. That way you won't be woken up at 3AM but a call at 8-9 would go through.
I was on the no call list and still got called a handful of times this past week. My phone is on DND from 10pm to 6am every day.

ACARS today to offer me more WDO's. Accepted one that was reasonable and then got called a couple hours later and reassigned to one that was crap. Gotta love it.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: AC flow agreement

Post by goingnowherefast » Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:25 am

Rowdy wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 8:34 pm
ACARS today to offer me more WDO's. Accepted one that was reasonable and then got called a couple hours later and reassigned to one that was crap. Gotta love it.
Are you able to refuse or turn down the reassignment given it's on a WDO?
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FL-280
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Re: AC flow agreement

Post by FL-280 » Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:03 am

No you can't..... So I only take the gravy wdo's... 1 or 2 legs in a day, add 2 hours in my timebank on top if not I will just stay home and find someone else.
If I can't make 1k$ on a wdo, not worth my time in my opinion.
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Re: AC flow agreement

Post by Warden » Mon Jul 29, 2019 7:47 pm

Rowdy wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 8:34 pm
Warden wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 4:18 pm

This is what I heard too. A friend of mine said they can basically count on being called at least twice a day, every day. Once for day stuff, once for the inevitable stand up. I think a lot of people have been putting themselves on the "no call" list.

Rowdy, if you don't want to get called at 3AM but don't want to be on the no call list try the do not disturb mode on your phone where you can silence it for a certain time and allow calls through after say 8-9am. That way you won't be woken up at 3AM but a call at 8-9 would go through.
I was on the no call list and still got called a handful of times this past week. My phone is on DND from 10pm to 6am every day.

ACARS today to offer me more WDO's. Accepted one that was reasonable and then got called a couple hours later and reassigned to one that was crap. Gotta love it.
Ouch, nothing worse than saying yes to an overtime shift and then getting reassigned!
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goingnowherefast
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Re: AC flow agreement

Post by goingnowherefast » Tue Jul 30, 2019 4:46 am

Ouch, that's too bad. Great incentive to help out the company...

At my current company that happened to me once. I called them back and said the reassignment won't have me back in time for my personal plans, so I'm turning down the whole day. My day off, my schedule, I decide what I accept.
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Re: AC flow agreement

Post by mbav8r » Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:23 am

Rowdy wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 8:34 pm
Warden wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 4:18 pm

This is what I heard too. A friend of mine said they can basically count on being called at least twice a day, every day. Once for day stuff, once for the inevitable stand up. I think a lot of people have been putting themselves on the "no call" list.

Rowdy, if you don't want to get called at 3AM but don't want to be on the no call list try the do not disturb mode on your phone where you can silence it for a certain time and allow calls through after say 8-9am. That way you won't be woken up at 3AM but a call at 8-9 would go through.
I was on the no call list and still got called a handful of times this past week. My phone is on DND from 10pm to 6am every day.

ACARS today to offer me more WDO's. Accepted one that was reasonable and then got called a couple hours later and reassigned to one that was crap. Gotta love it.
Rowdy,
Based on what you are saying, the only way they could reassign you is if the original accepted flying was no longer operating. It seems like you were reassigned prior to check in, Crewsked will try to get away with things and you need to know your contact.
If you want to PM me the details I could offer my opinion on whether it was allowed, in any case you could review the reassignment provisions to see what they violated.
But in order to reassign you prior to check in, the pairing has to be changed or cancelled and cannot be changed in order to offer it as a WDO.
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Blue_Skies
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Re: AC flow agreement

Post by Blue_Skies » Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:37 pm

Does anyone have any update on how the flow is working out? Is AC actually sticking to the 60%? I know there were a decent amount of Jazz pilots that left recently, but it doesn't seem like there were enough that went over during the summer.
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Babar350
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Re: AC flow agreement

Post by Babar350 » Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:02 am

This is an annual rate.
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Blue_Skies
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Re: AC flow agreement

Post by Blue_Skies » Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:59 pm

I do realize that it is an annual rate. I was just wondering if anyone knew how far from the 60% they currently are.
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Re: AC flow agreement

Post by iflyroads » Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:46 am

Blue_Skies wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:59 pm
I do realize that it is an annual rate. I was just wondering if anyone knew how far from the 60% they currently are.
Rest assured the 60 percent rate is being honoured..

Had a gs start yesterday, fair bit of jazz in.
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